What do YOU think

[SRADkneedragger]

OK boys and girls here's a question That I would REALLY appreciate your participation in.
We lost another young sportbike rider Saturday a really nice kid just did everything wrong, too much speed, target fixation, panic braking, low side into roadsign, a horrible loss!
This happens a few times a year with young/new/inexperienced riders.
So at the first of the year myself, an MSF instructor and another RoadRacer decided to put together an advanced riders school. Long story short it became mired in politics with a handfull of naysayers and never happened. My point : If it saved one life,,,,
Their point: You don't know Jack! And No one is going to learn anything
Please allow me to explain.
The MSF curriculum is excellent although some what basic. The ADVANCED MSF course is ,,, well more advanced. A track School somewhat technical but still very usefull. The problem lies in the fact that no matter how good these classes are they don't work if you don't go! Many new riders(OVER 90% I would guess) Think "I don't need MSF I know how to ride) Many would attend a Track Day except we are too far away and they are out of reach financially for many. Tons of people ride and never understand basics such as countersteering or balanced braking. Even more riders don't understand target fixation, traction limits, extreme swerving, look where you want to go,,,,,
The idea was to offer an "Advanced riders school" The idea being selling getting your knee down as bait to get these riders in and teach them lifesaving skills mentioned above. Somewhat of a mixture between advanced MSF Basic MSF and Track School, in a package that looks more "Cool" and therefore is more appealing to the younger riders. Either free or at a minimul cost. I'm pretty sure a CMRA racer/Champion, a a former instructor TMGP Racer/Champion and a MSF instructor should be able to cover and teach some basic riding/lifesaving skills in a format that would interest and improve some riders.
So heres the poll:
#1 no too much trouble/liability they won't learn anyway so why bother
#2 Yes a good idea why didn't I think of this?
#3 who cares I'm neutral

[bushwhacker]

Tons of people ride and never understand basics such as countersteering or balanced braking.



I truely believe that a good understanding of these two, and especially countersteering, would prevent more accidents than anything else you could do.

I think even target fixation has as much to do with trying to steer the bike like a car (not enough countersteering practice by even those who understand it) in a panic situation than anything else.

I believe that even those who understand the concepts of countersteering and balanced breaking need to understand that these two concepts must be practiced and utilized to the point that they become second nature before they do any kind of "agressive" riding.

If you can accomplish that, I think it would be a good thing.

-

[Morgan Buchanan]

I think it's a great idea, but I have ZERO concept on the liability issues or how to cover the costs and liability, so I simply won't comment. I'm not a lawyer, and I'm not about to do the legal research to be able to form an opinion.

Many years ago I went to Keith Code's California SuperBike School. INVALUABLE. Even today, when I ride a VTX 1800, the lessons I learned are INVALUABLE.

[yodersci]

Questions abound. Where would you hold the cool school? What days, how long would it last, and what gear would we need to participate? I ride a DL1000 and have a couple people that I work with that ride cruisers. We have talked about taking a MSF course, but have been unable to find one in the Lufkin/Nacogdoches area. We have been riding for a very long time, but people that I have talked to that have actually taken a MSF course say they come away with some new knowledge, but it doesn't sound like they learned that much new stuff. How much $ is another question that pops to the top of the list. If I had to vote, #2 I would say very interested.

[Chirpy]

Exactly why I formed TrackLeather back in 2002. A desire to help people get onto the track for the first time and help end the carnage that’s accepted as “the price of the sport”. Bah. I didn’t accept it.

Before TrackLeather, the only folks that had trackside rentals were the big ones like Spencer School, Schwantz and CSS. Even more expensive, not less. I’m glad I put over 300 people on the track for the first time, and I really enjoy the fact that many have gone on to be CMRA racers as well as track day junkies.

I’m even happier that I sold it, as it cost me well into five figures over the two year period. I view it as my period of moto-philanthropy, giving back to a sport I love.

The legal risks aren’t that bad. The policies that tracks carry cover the entities that rent them. The folks that work for the renting entity are also covered. One thing that I never got a straight answer for was the status of “volunteers”. In other words, if you are working for tracktime or any other situation where 1099s aren’t occuring are they actually covered? The renter was covered, but I never got a straight answer for the volunteers. I reccomended to some RideSmart volunteers back in the day who had assets to lose that they consider blanket liability policies to suppplement whatever other insurance that they had. You can get about $2,000,000 for $200 or so a year.

Probably the biggest practical stumbling block will be securing track time. It’s pretty tight in Texas at the moment. Although for a pure school the NASCAR track infield might work out, although nobody uses it for safety reasons. Perhaps in a school environment you could keep the speeds down around the wall.

Anyway, there’s a few random thoughts. I’d kick it around some more if you want. PM me and I’ll happily share a few more opinions.

[Tourmeister]

:tab I used to organize the occasional newbie ride. I'd have 3-4 experienced riders that I knew and had ridden with. We might have 10-15 newbs. Everyone showed up at my place about 9:00am. We went over everyone's bike to make sure chains were lubed and properly tensioned, tires properly inflated, suspension setup properly, etc,... A lot of folks really liked just this! After the mech stuff, we had a brief riding school class. I gave the riders the basic rules of the road speech: no wheelies, no stoppies, no excessive speeding, no passing on the right, and basically just how we expected them to behave. For the actual instruction, we covered maybe three things. More than that and most folks will forget some of them. I focused on: you go where you look so look where you want to go, the effect of chopping the throttle in a panic situation versus staying on the gas or even giving it more gas (basically how weight transfer affects the bike), proper corner entry/exit. I went over those three things over and over. When we finally got to riding, I led, then there were a few newbs, then an experienced rider, then a few newbs, etc,... This gave the newbs a chance to watch an experienced rider and also for an experienced rider to watch them. I encouraged the newbs to be accepting of constructive criticism and for the experienced riders to offer it in a helpful way and not in a demeaning way. At the frequent stops, there was much discussion. The rides would only be maybe 150-200 miles at most on East Texas roads that had relatively low traffic and curves from 25-40 mph. Speeds were kept at or VERY close to the speed limits. The idea was that the ride was a no pressure ride. It was very popular but I simply did not have time to keep doing them. My street riding has pretty much evaporated the last year.

:tab There was no charge. It is true that there will always be potential liability because people can always sue. However, given that this was not a paid course put on by a company, was held on public road, and the riders were on their own bikes, I figured it wasn't any different than any other group ride. there wasn't much of a "cool" factor though to attract all knowing squids or cruiser riders.

[Hairsmith]

Any thing help's new riders that makes them think about being safe. In fact that is true of all of us on bikes, but I fee that those of us that have miles and years behind us tend to think about it and try to learn more readily. The years and miles have shown us the dangers, and the pleasures. So it make it worth the time to become better riders, and enjoy it even more.

I like the idea, but if it helps a rider learn I like all the ideas!

I would like to do some things like this my self. Just not sure where to start. I also tend to ride by myself so much any more that I am not sure how helpful I might be with something like Scott's beginner ride. Which I also like the idea of.
It would be best for me to take some riding instruction and learn how to go about teaching it.

A while back 10-95 talked about doing some riding instruction like he does for his officers. Now I am ALL over that!!!!! I want to Take, Help, Learn, or Watch any thing like that !
It irritates the dickens out of me to watch riders not be able to handle there bikes at low speed, how do they think they are safe out on the road if they cant get around in a parking lot. It is about all I can to to keep from yelling pick you feet up and RIDE the darn thing!

[1TallTXn]

I think if your going to be able to talk newbs into riding with you, then they are most likley the sort that is going to learn and survive.
Many of the folks that are generally being bad riders, don't seem like the type that would actually go seek out instruction.

and the squids aren't going to show up for a school unless its about stunting, top speed, drag racing, or girls in non-existent bikini :rolleyes:

I would be VERY interested in taking a LEO style course.

If you have a chance to get people to learn and you want to do it, Go for it.

[el_chupo_]

Srad, I think its a great idea, but the liabilty would scare me. I dont care about a wavier, etc. someone gets hurt, they will find a way to sue you. thats what fools do.

And Nathan,

My uncle is a instructor for the police academy in Austin. My dad and I talked to him, he doesnt think he can get us into a class, but he is gonna talk to the guy. ill try to let you know if anything comes of it. I also happen to have a copy of the "ride like a pro IV" videos, where he goes over the police course, including measurements. let me know if your interested, ill meet you somewhere.

[P-Ratt]

The MSF is working to get an advanced skills course out to the public. We won't have it here since there's not enough demand for it. Demand will drive who goes to the trouble to certify RC's, so it won't be everywhere.

One of the big debates out there is whether (1) the "safety classes" (any kind) actually make anyone safer or (2) those seeking safety classes are inherently more safe vehicle operators and desire to take safety classes.

The liability thing can get ugly. If you want to take up rider training, do it through an established organization.

I have done mentorship, but it is very small ratios, mostly 1:1 or 1:2, it is with people I know, and it isn't a weekend thing. You can't save everyone, but you can try to make a difference to a few with mentorship.

[Tourmeister]

:tab The problem I see with MSF is that it has become so expensive. We took it in 1999 and it was $75. I hear it is now around $150 and they have cut back on some of the content. I know some people think any amount of money spent that makes you safer is worth it, but that simply is not a realistic way to look at it. If I have to chose between a helmet and the MSF course, guess which one would lose... Like it or not, cost matters and if it keeps going up, I would expect more and more people to just forget taking the course.

:tab At this point, I would say the mentor thing is a good route to go. However, finding a good mentor can be tough, especially if you are new to riding and don't really know how to tell who is good and who is not. Just because someone has had a bike a long time or has ridden a lot of miles does not necessarily mean they will be a good mentor.

[SRADkneedragger]

Where to start?
Well maybe I found a starting point!
One thing that I have talked over with a local dealer and the love is this:
Saturday Morning free coffee and donuts and a Suspension seminar.

The next week its a general maintenance seminar with them helping people set controls adjust them adjusting chains etc etc and giving them a free can of chain lube when they leave.

Next week, a helmet seminar where they discuss the differences in helmets from the cheapest to the best with some destructive testing.

Next week Oil(now its gonna get a little sticky)
Then maybe on to a riders clinic with some basic skills!

This dealer is pretty enthusiastic about making inroads into the local motorcyclists so they are pretty interested in trying this out next Spring! Keep your fingers crossed!
SRAD

[1TallTXn]

Srad, I think its a great idea, but the liabilty would scare me. I dont care about a wavier, etc. someone gets hurt, they will find a way to sue you. thats what fools do.

And Nathan,

My uncle is a instructor for the police academy in Austin. My dad and I talked to him, he doesnt think he can get us into a class, but he is gonna talk to the guy. ill try to let you know if anything comes of it. I also happen to have a copy of the "ride like a pro IV" videos, where he goes over the police course, including measurements. let me know if your interested, ill meet you somewhere.
sounds like a good deal to me!

I'd like to watch those videos. now to find the time to do it... :giveup:

[StarWatcher]

I'd be there in a heartbeat. I usually take a couple of hours every month, go to the nearest big, empty parking lot, put up some cones and practice slow speed maneuvers, swerving, brake and evade, emergency stopping, etc on my own. I'm always eager to learn more.

--Mike

[mnapuran]

Correct me if I'm wrong... but isn't there already an advanced MSF course?

Experienced Rider Course:
The 8 hour advanced course is for experienced riders only. Even experienced riders may have developed bad riding habits that they aren't aware of. Maybe there was never an opportunity to develop accident avoidance skills, with professional instruction and in a controlled environment. Since advanced students use their own motorcycles, you'll see all types of bikes, from cruisers to sport bikes to touring machines. No matter how long you've been riding, the advanced course is tough enough to challenge your skills. You learn high speed maneuvering, quick swerving and avoidance techniques, countersteering, traction control, emergency braking for curves and slippery surfaces. The fee for the ERC course is $80.00.

[el_chupo_]

Where to start?
Well maybe I found a starting point!
One thing that I have talked over with a local dealer and the love is this:
Saturday Morning free coffee and donuts and a Suspension seminar.

The next week its a general maintenance seminar with them helping people set controls adjust them adjusting chains etc etc and giving them a free can of chain lube when they leave.

Next week, a helmet seminar where they discuss the differences in helmets from the cheapest to the best with some destructive testing.

Next week Oil(now its gonna get a little sticky)
Then maybe on to a riders clinic with some basic skills!

This dealer is pretty enthusiastic about making inroads into the local motorcyclists so they are pretty interested in trying this out next Spring! Keep your fingers crossed!
SRAD

Srad, I think this is a great idea. It keeps you out of the liability game, and places any skills course on an organization. It also benefits the dealer with some goodwill and advertising, and helps out new bikers with some useful, real world knowledge. I would show up if I was near you.

[SRADkneedragger]

mnapuran Correct me if I'm wrong... but isn't there already an advanced MSF course?
Absolutely! Let offer it this way in case you missed the initial intent:
The MSF courses BOTH offer very useful and well researched content, the problem is that they aren't "COOL".
Racing Schools are cool, Track Days are cool, If you look in the back of many Magazines you will notice the "How to wheelie" Schools.
These are full because they are "COOL".
This is just a perception issue and so if you throw something out there "COOL" maybe you can get to the Noobs. Furthermore I noticed someone quoted a price,,, Our local MSF course was $250 for the Beginner course last time I heard! This prices it out of reach of many people or forces them to choose between a "Cool" Jacket or MSF. So the idea here is not to compete with or replace MSF but to try to attract some of the young riders that wouldn't couldn't attend MSF classes
SRAD

[SKEETER]

i think all riders should learn in the dirt first then the street, or maybe cross train on a mountainbike. when i totaled my 03 interceptor in jan 2006 after a person pulled across my lane on park road 4 my experience wrecking dirt bikes and mountainbikes saved my life.

[1TallTXn]

i think all riders should learn in the dirt first then the street, or maybe cross train on a mountainbike. when i totaled my 03 interceptor in jan 2006 after a person pulled across my lane on park road 4 my experience wrecking dirt bikes and mountainbikes saved my life.
I agree with you on that, but then if these folks thought that riding in the dirt was cool, thats where they would be.

SRAD, I think you've got a great concept here. I really hope that you can get some people to learn some life saving skills from this.

[Big Bandit]

Correct me if I'm wrong... but isn't there already an advanced MSF course?

I took the advanced MSF course in Nov, to get a ticket dismissed. It was $40 at Texas State University, a year and a half ago the basic course was $150. I thought the basic course was great. I thought the advanced course was a waste of time. You are still just doing low speed manuvers in a parking lot. We did not even talk about advanced techniques we just did low speed tricks in the parking lot. The classroom part of the advanced course was a review of the classroom stuff for basic, don't drink and ride, etc. TX St only offers the advanced class twice a year because demand is so low.

[P-Ratt]

Furthermore I noticed someone quoted a price,,, Our local MSF course was $250 for the Beginner course last time I heard! This prices it out of reach of many people or forces them to choose between a "Cool" Jacket or MSF. The state of Texas capped the BRC at $180 until this past September. Now it has been bumped to $190. Unless you are talking about a Riders Edge course, there's something funny there. (Still, it isn't exactly chump change for most.) Some places have seasonal deals. One of the places I teach for in Houston has regularly run deals of about $150, depending on the time of the year.