Front Wheel Slippage - Question

[Grover]

Went riding on Sunday... 2Up.

1150GS, side Hardcases, + Top Trunk and the wifey so I had some weight on the scooter & had the suspension properly adjusted. My wifes not big... but just saying.

Sunday morning was cold! brrrrrrrr..... but thankfully heated jackets helped.

We were in a lean, going around a corner (Moderate turn)... no peg draggin but not upright either doing about 60MPH. I have never paid much attention to the black tar lines on the road before, but in this case, there was a black tar line snaking along with the turn. I didnt change my approach, but steadied the bike throughout the turn. BAMM.... slip. I didnt react with the handlebars but the bike did catch and grip again very quickly. It happened again approx 10 miles later. From then on, I slowed way down on the turns, to error on the side of caution. I've never felt this before from those tar runners. Granted my front tire probably could use replacing as I dont have a lot of tread depth left, but heres my question:

Is this normal to slightly slip on the tar runnner (or whatever they are called???) in the cold or is this just a simple case of Gods way of telling me to stop being cheap and buy a new set of sneakers?

After inspection I noticed that I had a set of Bridgestone Trailwings on there instead of the Metzler Tourances. I know the trailwings are cheap by comparison but after my Sunday ride, I can say my confidence of the lean angle dropped pretty quickly.

[Tracker]

I've experience major pucker, also, on cold riding days and have read/been told to compare cold riding days to riding in the rain, as far as comparative traction. At the least, you definitely want to let the tires "warm up" at the beginning of a ride on a cold day.

[dutchinterceptor]

I've found tar snakes to be dangerous at all temps. During the summer they tend to get greasy so it's like hitting an oil spot.

[Duke]

I'd say it is a combination of Cold rubber (tar snake) and cool rubber in your tires. But with that said you (well me anyway) can loose traction on the tar snakes in 105 degree heat with hot tires.

To encounter one on a turn when the lateral force is pushing the bike anyway just compounds the entire deal.

Just my opinion, ymmv...

Duke

[Grover]

Off-Topic:

Duke,

Did you get your PC's networked correctly?

[Duke]

Off-Topic:

Duke,

Did you get your PC's networked correctly?


Just posted and updated in my other thread. NUTT fixed me up. I still want to see that 1150 of yours, and if you decide to change your "sneakers" out, remember that I have a tire machine at the house.

[norestartswact]

Droning along slowly won't keep your tires warmed up too. Cold tires (or tires not up to optimum temp) greatly affects how the feel when cornering.

[scratch]

The rearward weight bias with the wife, bags & topcase loaded onto the bike was likely a factor too. The front end was probably quite a bit lighter than normal, making your bike prone to push (or understeer) in the turns, and making it more likely that the front tire would slip on the tarsnakes.

[Grover]

Droning along slowly won't keep your tires warmed up too. Cold tires (or tires not up to optimum temp) greatly affects how the feel when cornering.

We had been riding for over 20-30 mins I'd say. I have no reason to believe that I had cold tires other than the fact that it was cold outside. I had ridden from Downtown Houston to Montgomery... stopped for breakfast at Kings Cafe. After breakfast, suited up and started to ride. 20-30 mins later, slip on tar snake.

I am ordering some new tires today from NW Cycles. Its only money. My confidence just fell way too much after that occurence. My wife felt it too, so for the rest of the day, I had knee imprints on the side of my hips from her squeezing everytime another corner come up. It was unnatural, because this bike feels EXTREMELY stable. That was the first time I didnt feel stable.

Scratch:
You got it! I forgot to add, that during the turn.. I rolled on the throttle. I didnt grab a handful of it... I was gentle, but it was enough. I think your onto something about the weight distribution plus my rolling onto the throttle, but its not like I goosed it enough to lift the front end up. I just thought it would have had more solid grip than that,.

When I got home... I stripped all the gear off it. Just me and the GS.
1st gear... I get rolling at an easy pace.... I can lean forward, and grab a handful. The rear tire will spin. No wheelie... but I spin the tire from 15MPH rolling then twisting the throttle. Same in 2nd gear! The bike has so much torque that instead of gripping, it spins. I think its crappy Trailwing tires added to the tar snake equation. Too many factors here for me to learn everything. I need my lean confidence back while cornering the twisties 2up. Buying new tires... scrub the chicken strips off and take it easy for a while. See if my confidence grows back.

[mlinkibikr]

Perhaps if the old tires were worn in the middle (aka straight road commute riding) vs the fully treaded shoulders ... combined wth an uneven road surface (tar snake) and just the right angle of banking - you could have been on that transitional point on the tire where less then optimal footprint remained (think of a sharp angle between the worn out tread and the good tread). If your footprint was smaller ( also keeping in mind the aforementioned "lightening" on the front due to passenger) it would definitely push until it regained a good footprint.

I think new tires are just the ticket. Problem solved and no lack of confidence required.

Dave.

[Texian]

97Octane-...my2c?

You can have issues with those tarsnakes on any tire, hot or cold, and on any bike...when it happens, react just the way you did and all will be fine.

I've experienced it on multiple bikes/tires.

no worries ;)

[sherob]

97Octane-...my2c?

You can have issues with those tarsnakes on any tire, hot or cold, and on any bike...when it happens, react just the way you did and all will be fine.

I've experienced it on multiple bikes/tires.

no worries ;)

+1... more slippery when wet :trust:

[Jack Giesecke]

Tar lines, rearward weight bias of the passenger, cold tires. I'm not surprised the front pushed on you. Some bikes, I have to ride the front wheel to keep it planted, all weight forward. Put a passenger of ANY weight on the back and you screw up weight distribution. High performance riding is a lot about body position and weight distribution of the motorcycle.

Before I finally got the wide enough rim on teh front of my little KX80 motard, I used to safe front end slides with my knee a lot. Still do sometimes, but it'd run off the tire profile and go away like, RIGHT NOW, and all you can do is steer into it and stick the knee down and hold the bike up til it catchs (can get away with that on a 145 lb motorcycle). I got to be real good at catching the push, would push it over the edge several times every sprint. I sure was happy to finally get a 2.50 wide front rim on that thing. :mrgreen: I still ride the front wheel to keep it planted, but no longer run off the edge.

[Squeaky]

How many miles on the DeathWings?

My bike came with them and at ~5k miles they had tread left but were slick. Not sure if the heat cycles got it, the flat spotting, or what - but it's been a known issue for them to quickly go from bad to worse after they've hit the 5-6k mark.

Tourrances all the way!

[Grover]

How many miles on the DeathWings?


Tourrances all the way!

:rofl: DeathWings :lol2:

I dont know how many miles are on 'em. I picked the bike up used and havent researched the service book yet, although its very well documented. I will have to look at that. The rear tire has decent tread left, the front is well worn and doesnt sport much tread depth.

Im headed to Big Bend on March 15th, so I will be replacing both tires with Metzlers and be done with it. I do NOT want slipping tires on the mountain roads out there 2Up.

[letsride]

It's ok to slide a lil bit, nothing worng with it. There is always a little "zip" across the tar snakes if the lean is enough. The tires will never completely let go across a tar snake, just a lil slip and then catch again, same with a lil gravel or dust. Main thing is not to "correct" anything as the tire will grip immediately afterwarsd and you continue to ride merrily.

In my opinion the Trailwings have better street traction than Tourances, rode with both the Trailwaing stay planted at full lean while the Tourances have a slight squirmage at full lean. Tourances have a lil more traction off road as compared to Trailwings. My experience was on a ~100lb lighter bike so that might be a factor here.

All in all, a lil slide over a tar snake is ok, nothing bad as it will grip immediately afterwards. Now if the tar snake was 4 foot wide then we have a problem :)

[Tourmeister]

Being "on" the gas is better than being "off" the gas in that situation :thumb: Too much weight on the front can be just as bad as too little. My experience riding two up is that there is a sweet spot when accelerating through corners that keeps the suspension right without making the front end push. Also, if you are riding with all that extra weight, you need to make sure that you have the rear spring preload maxed out. The stock 1150 shocks are pretty soft. If you ever get to ride the GS with a set of Ohlins or Wilbers... :rider:

[Jack Giesecke]

Being "on" the gas is better than being "off" the gas in that situation Too much weight on the front can be just as bad as too little.

Uh? I respectfully disagree. You're weighted too far rearward and you gas it and the front gets light, you face plant a WHOLE lot quicker. Get up on the front wheel and the rear spins, a little throttle control and you're okay. You can't get enough weight over the front driving off a corner on most big sport bikes. They want to wheelie, get real light on the front under throttle. Of course, things can be helped a lot with proper set up, but a street bike is a general set up by necessity, not track specific. Put a person on the back, even with high preload, and you've got more front end rake, which means you need MORE weight on the front to fight the push.


Watch the AMA guys. Breaking INTO a corner, you will transition weight forward trailing in on the brakes. Your weight will be rearward to keep the rear wheel as weighted as possible to get as much front brake as possible, but as you peel off into the corner toward the apex, slide your weight forward as you get off the saddle with your legs. You want as much weight forward as possible when driving off the turn. The more weight forward, the harder you can dial the throttle and more throttle equals higher exit speed equals higher terminal speed on the straight.


Now, how does this relate? With a passenger, you're weight rearward. Obviously on the street two up, you ain't gonna be sliding around on the seat, so just bare in mind you must reduce speed to avoid the front end push. You can't get as frisky two up as on your own, even though guys as good as Jason Pridmore can take riders along with enough velocity to scare the bejesus out of 'em and be well within their limits even two up. :lol2:

Personally, I'm double careful two up and don't push corners hard cause usually that second person is a loved one.

[Grover]

Uh? I respectfully disagree. You're weighted too far rearward and you gas it and the front gets light, you face plant a WHOLE lot quicker. Get up on the front wheel and the rear spins, a little throttle control and you're okay. You can't get enough weight over the front driving off a corner on most big sport bikes. They want to wheelie, get real light on the front under throttle. Of course, things can be helped a lot with proper set up, but a street bike is a general set up by necessity, not track specific. Put a person on the back, even with high preload, and you've got more front end rake, which means you need MORE weight on the front to fight the push.


Watch the AMA guys. Breaking INTO a corner, you will transition weight forward trailing in on the brakes. Your weight will be rearward to keep the rear wheel as weighted as possible to get as much front brake as possible, but as you peel off into the corner toward the apex, slide your weight forward as you get off the saddle with your legs. You want as much weight forward as possible when driving off the turn. The more weight forward, the harder you can dial the throttle and more throttle equals higher exit speed equals higher terminal speed on the straight.


Now, how does this relate? With a passenger, you're weight rearward. Obviously on the street two up, you ain't gonna be sliding around on the seat, so just bare in mind you must reduce speed to avoid the front end push. You can't get as frisky two up as on your own, even though guys as good as Jason Pridmore can take riders along with enough velocity to scare the bejesus out of 'em and be well within their limits even two up. :lol2:

Personally, I'm double careful two up and don't push corners hard cause usually that second person is a loved one.

+1

Especially the loved one on 2Up.

But my whole concern with my post was that my riding on Sunday was NOT agressive. This is why my confidence was shaken. He77, George was in the front on a freakin' Goldwing 2Up! :eek2:

A Harley Ultra Classic and a Honda VFR directly in front of me. I had a BMW RT on my rear. None of them seemed to have a problem. Like I said, I understand ones riding style and throttle control / discpline has a lot to do with it, but when say I rolled on the throttle, it was just that. It wasnt abrupt, it wasnt a handful. I was negotiating a turn just like the GoldWing... but I did notice I was on the Tar Snake... and I did notice the slip. And I did change my speed and lean angle after it happened twice. I just didnt understand it other then the tire issue.

I understand what all of you saying... I really appreciate the dialog as well. I want all information. It makes more more informed and prepared for what it is or whats happening the next time. ****, I just started riding MC's way-way back in August 06' so, I admitingly have a lot to learn.

[Hood Ornament]

I've found tar snakes to be dangerous at all temps. During the summer they tend to get greasy so it's like hitting an oil spot.

+1

[Jack Giesecke]

I think you were a victim of three things coming together, the tar spot, the cold tires, and the weight distribution of the bike and perhaps the fact that you may have been on the throttle at the exit of the corner at the time. I bet you didn't slip 'til you hit the tar spot and the difference is the other bikes might have stood it up over the tar spot or otherwise got out of the throttle while you got into it. There are many variables here, but them tar spots ARE slick as snot. We all agree on that one! :mrgreen: Gots ta tippy toe over those things, stand 'er up and get out of the throttle.

[Cagiva 549]

If you were riding FM 3090 the tar snakes seem to be extra slippery , I have noticed my bike sliding around on them lately . Contractors are supposed to mix sand in the joint seal tar that is used for crack sealing to give it a little traction but since that raises the cost of it a little they dont and the inspectors dont notice . The sand doesn't help much after the first time it gets hot the sand sinks in and leaves slick tar on top . Something else to make MC riding intresting . SEYA

[sherob]

If you were riding FM 3090 the tar snakes seem to be extra slippery

I hit that a few weeks ago in a nice turn :eek2: Ride down to Houston and take a ride on Kirkwood from Westheimer to I-10... I can't believe how many snakes that road has now :doh:

[Tourmeister]

Uh? I respectfully disagree. You're weighted too far rearward and you gas it and the front gets light, you face plant a WHOLE lot quicker. Get up on the front wheel and the rear spins, a little throttle control and you're okay. You can't get enough weight over the front driving off a corner on most big sport bikes. They want to wheelie, get real light on the front under throttle. Of course, things can be helped a lot with proper set up, but a street bike is a general set up by necessity, not track specific. Put a person on the back, even with high preload, and you've got more front end rake, which means you need MORE weight on the front to fight the push.


Watch the AMA guys. Breaking INTO a corner, you will transition weight forward trailing in on the brakes. Your weight will be rearward to keep the rear wheel as weighted as possible to get as much front brake as possible, but as you peel off into the corner toward the apex, slide your weight forward as you get off the saddle with your legs. You want as much weight forward as possible when driving off the turn. The more weight forward, the harder you can dial the throttle and more throttle equals higher exit speed equals higher terminal speed on the straight.


Now, how does this relate? With a passenger, you're weight rearward. Obviously on the street two up, you ain't gonna be sliding around on the seat, so just bare in mind you must reduce speed to avoid the front end push. You can't get as frisky two up as on your own, even though guys as good as Jason Pridmore can take riders along with enough velocity to scare the bejesus out of 'em and be well within their limits even two up.

:tab I don't dispute a thing you said under normal traction conditions, with or without a passenger.

Being "on" the gas is better than being "off" the gas in that situation :thumb: Too much weight on the front can be just as bad as too little. My experience riding two up is that there is a sweet spot when accelerating through corners that keeps the suspension right without making the front end push. Also, if you are riding with all that extra weight, you need to make sure that you have the rear spring preload maxed out. The stock 1150 shocks are pretty soft. If you ever get to ride the GS with a set of Ohlins or Wilbers... :rider:

:tab The front can slide for two reasons, too much weight on the front or two little. The idea, which I was trying to state unsuccessfully apparently, is that you want to be somewhere between those two extremes. If the front is sliding because of a slick spot, putting more weight on it is not usually going to stop it from sliding because there is no traction available. Best to hold steady, hope the front will clear the slick spot, and regain traction quickly. Now if the front is drifting simply because it is light and you have a rearward weight bias (ala fat passenger) and NOT because of a lack of available traction, then yes, you want more weight up front so you can get more traction, assuming traction is available. However, chopping the gas is not typically seen as a good solution. Every book I have read, David Hough's stuff, Kieth Code and others, say stay on the gas. This does not mean you are whacking the throttle wide open, but nor are you chopping it shut. I can't say a thing about racing because I have never raced. However, all my street experience, which includes many miles of two up riding under all sorts of weather and road conditions, confirms what they teach. I have had lots of times where I was literally pulling myself up over the bars trying to weight the front end to keep it down. And I have had to push my weight back under braking to help keep from overloading the front.

:tab If my front end is sliding because of a loss in traction due to temporary conditions like a slick spot or something, then my goal is to keep the bike upright until that front end can regain traction. The reason, as Jack points out, is that it is easier to keep control of the bike with the back end sliding than the front. Whenever I hit water coming across a road, tar snakes, or just patch of gravel even, I hold a constant throttle (stay on the gas) to get through and then wait to see how the back end of the bike reacts and adjust the throttle and my weight bias as necessary to keep control of the rear.

:tab Regarding the preload, if you have it set properly with your passenger on board, your rake should not be changed. That is the whole point of setting it higher. If you have crappy or limited suspension, then sure, you will be sagging to much in the rear and the rake will change as you said. I don't dispute that at all.

[Gilk51]

How many miles on the DeathWings?
...
Tourrances all the way!
I just changed out my Tourances for Anakees - I was less than pleased with the Ts - on the highway at freeway speeds, they were "nervous" if there was any irregularity on the surface, especially the groved asphalt. Just a 100 miles on tha Anakees but they already seem better planted.
I put 10500 on my original Trailwangs and wasn't finished but I wanted to try something different - not knowing any better (my first bike), I was happy with them. Same with the Tourances, almost 13000 on them, quite a bit of tread left, but really not happy with them overall. It may have been the mounting, or a bad set (particularly the front), dunno, but I switched...

[Tourmeister]

Hmm... Tourances rocked on my GS :shrug: Never had any problems at all with them as long as I stayed out of the mud :doh: :lol:

[Chirpy]

I used to slide around over the tar snakes in my subdivision at 25 mph. They are nasty.

[Grover]

Update:

I called our good friends over at NW Cycles (Todd) and ordered a set of Anakees front and rear for meh GS.

WIll get installed this weekend. I will post a review after a few thousand miles or when I get back from Big Bend on March 19th and tell you how they performed out there.

[Texian]

Tourances are the booomb on GS's. Fantastic tire.

Let us know what you think of those Anakees...I haven't gotten a consistent opinion on their performance

[Jack Giesecke]

Scott, well, in my experience, all that ever happened when I weighted the front as much as I could on a properly set up bike is the back end might slide out on acceleration, far more acceptable and controllable than a front end push. You can stay in the throttle while the rear slides, but when the front pushes you have to steer into it, get out of the throttle, and hope it catches. IMHO, you can't push the front by over weighting it, I never could, but you'll move the slide to the rear which is easier to control and sometimes a bunch of fun. :mrgreen: I bow you your street experience. I haven't been riding the street, but 41 years. :mrgreen: Oh, wait, that'd be 40 years because I spent my sophomore year in college without a bike, most miserable year of my life and I learned my lesson. Hot rods pick up the chicks, but hey, it ain't worth it! :lol2: I dumped that Malibu SS for a GT550 and never looked back. :mrgreen:

Proper set up two up for me usually meant new spring rates. I didn't have enough preload to compensate. But, then, we are heavy folks. :doh: The air shocks on the wing work pretty well, though.

[sherob]

The air shocks on the wing work pretty well, though.

Amen brotha... They have to for all the DQ runs we make :lol2:

[BMWbabe]

:popcorn:

[Grover]

Update!

I installed some Michelin Anakees on Saturday. Broke them in a little with over 150 miles on Sunday.

All I can say about the Anakees is great tire! Loads more grip than my worn out Trailwings!!!!!!

Even on the ride home, with only 5 miles on the rubber, they had more front grip than the Trailwings. Huge difference.



- Post edited

[Jack Giesecke]

You should have taken it to Patrick at MU. I don't know how he can make anything on tire changes for what he charges, wouldn't buy a good lunch.

NW Cycles? Are you talking about NW Honda? I know Ronnie Lundsford, the owner at NW Honda, and Mike Case who works there. But, I've never even been in that dealership in all the years. Hmmm. Was never on my side of town even when I lived near Houston (Brazoria). I used to go over to the NW side, though, to get TZ parts, Hurst Supply, got a discount. I guess that's another thing, I had Yamahas back then, not Hondas.

[Jack Giesecke]

Just realized you're not talkin' about Ronnie's place. My bad. :mrgreen:

[Grover]

NW Cycles? Are you talking about NW Honda?

Nope... Its a small shop called NW Cycles off of 34th street/ 290. Small outfit, in an Industrial strip center with a small garage and office.

[Tx Rider]

+1

I've done two wheel slides that really puckered me up on em in the rain. But I've slid on em in all weather with all tires. The knobs on my KTM actually seems to slip less on em, but I could be just imagining that.