California Stories

Rather than jack wabbit's poll thread re: dual sports, thought I'd share a story from my CA days--

For WSB weekend in 2003, KLR bud, V-Strom bud, V-Star bud & me rode from Fresno (middle of California) to Laguna Seca- roads included Santa Rosa Creek Road (semi famous in CA) and the PCH-

I wouldn't believe this either, if I hadn't seen it myself--

Headed south on PCH towards Seal Beach- KLR bud & myself caught up to a 'Busa stuck behind a long line of cars-- when the traffic cleared a little, 'Busa dude zooms away. KLR bud in front of me opens it up also (for a KLR), like he is gonna catch him. In my mind, the 'Busa was already in Mexico. In a couple sets of twisties, we had caught the 'Busa again!! This continued for a couple miles, with the 'Busa ditching us on the straights, and us catching & tucking right behind him on the curves. (ok I know the 'Busa is a GS, not an ultra-quick handling race bike, but a freakin KLR?!)

We all pulled off at Seal Beach, and the guy comes over to talk. I figured him to be a young squidly type, but actually was friendly middle age type.

He said something along the lines of "man, you guys are good, you really pushed hard through those curves. Of course, my tires are pretty shot, so I couldn't really go as quick as usual"

KLR bud replied "yeah, dual sport tires on a KLR are really the hot ticket for going quick"

DS

I believe it .... as I've seen it happen many, many times.

I think there are two main things at work here; rider proficiency level and the extra leverage from wide/tall handlebars on DS bikes.

It takes not only a fast bike, but an above-average rider to get a sport bike to negotiate turns at a fast pace. DS bikes give the rider an advantage here because the extra leverage from the wide bars allows for exceptional countersteering with minimal effort.

In going from a BMW RT to a GS, I felt my riding proficiency/confidence level immediately improve as a result of the wide bars on the GS.

IMHO, barring any bad cupping/flat spots, tire wear does not really factor into this significantly in dry pavement. Tire wear is usually a large factor only in the rain because of the tire's ability to displace water is much less as the tire reaches end of life.

You are right on w/ rider proficiency-- that was I learned from the event

many times I have passed/ ridden with bikes that based on spec sheets I shouldn't. I have also had the opposite happen, and many times. In my early riding days, I took those events as a personal affront, and on occasion rode outside my skill set to redeem myself (luckily, and ONLY thanks to luck, that never resulted in waddage). Now I know that there are people who are just faster than me, and credit to them, I will see them at the next stop.

Mostly I just relayed the story cuz' I thought it was funny, and to me highlights some of the ego/ machismo/ whatever that sometimes manifests itself in big HP numbers.

I was out in the Hill Country a few years back. That same weekend, there was some kind of vintage rally. Think lots of old guys with leather caps on really old bikes with dated suspension and no horse power. I was on the VFR at the time and was cruising along on FM 337 at what I thought was a good pace. A few of these "old" guys smoked past me in the curves and I never saw them again until later in the afternoon in Leakey at the Exxon station. Most of them had been riding for 30-40 years and their experience really showed! They were super smooth and had perfect lines through the corners, carrying lots of corner speed.

From that point on, I really started to focus on sharpening my riding skills to be smooth in all circumstances. Doing so forces you to ride well and in a relaxed state so that surprises are not as big of a surprise and are easy to deal with when they pop up occasionally. I leave the straight line speed thing to the guys on the monster bikes that can afford the monster tickets.

Regarding the DS riding position, I have to agree with Adan. I find it much easier to ride the "Big" GS through the twisties than any sportbike I have ridden (VFRs, FZ1, SV650S, R1, etc,...) The bike just never does anything unexpected and feels glued to the ground. The wide bars make steering almost effortless. I think turn and the bike turns. I run with sportbikes all the time and have no problem hanging with them in the tight stuff, but they will pull away on any straights. I think they do that because it bothers them to see the GS on their tail in the twisties

Adios,

I am inclined to agree that the seating position and bar leverage of a DS gives a handling advantage. I have experienced same on XR600, KLR, and FJR (okay not a DS, but seating position/ leverage similar). I have also heard the same a number of times. Also examine handling prowess of supermotard type bikes, and truly awesome lean angles they achieve.

That being said, I am forced to wonder why (except possibly for aerodynamics), road race bikes are not shaped more like DS?

STrider said:

I am forced to wonder why (except possibly for aerodynamics), road race bikes are not shaped more like DS?

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Aerodynamics probably (thinking 'Busa here), but the COG is probably also better with the rider more nicely tucked inside the critical triangle, glued onto the gas tank

Adan said:

Aerodynamics probably (thinking 'Busa here), but the COG is probably also better with the rider more nicely tucked inside the critical triangle, glued onto the gas tank

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Again, I agree, but to me that does not the emerging question: If DS (and DS shaped) bikes handle better on the street, why not on the track? Would a superbike class motor in a light DS type chassis be the prime setup? I have to believe that all of the engineers at hondasakazuki have thought of this, or WSB etc. would be ruled by such a bike.

Maybe conditions on a track are so different that it doesn't work, I dunno. (my only track experience is a parade lap at Laguna Seca, actually on the same trip that started this thread).

What do you think?

Tourmeister said:

The wide bars make steering almost effortless. I think turn and the bike turns.

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That's exactly the reason I'm moving up to a DS/Adventure tourer-type bike. I love riding your GS and not having to think about how to steer, just thinking about the turn is all it takes. Besides, the upright seating is MUCH more comfy.

Howdy,

Aerodynamics is a big part of it. Reducing the drag coefficient makes a bigger difference on top end speeds than just adding brute HP. Drag rises as the square of the velocity. This means the faster you go, the worse the drag gets, but in a nonlinear fashion. The drag at 40mph is not twice that of at 20mph, it is actually FOUR times higher, and NINE times higher at 60mph. At low speeds ( <140mph or so), the increase is still not that bad, but once you start getting up there, the drag increases really really fast. This is what led to the idea of a Sound Barrier before we had supersonic aircraft. The current theory predicted that the drag would increase to the point where even a slight increase in speed would result in an massive increase in the drag that would have to be overcome by the power of the vehicle. The theory did not account for the drop in drag once the shock wave attached to the vehicle. So in reality, it is more like a drag hurdle.

A great description of what I was trying to say

Even with a faired DS type bike, the rider is still up high with arms wide catching the wind. The DS setup works good in really tight twisty stuff where speeds are relatively low. Most tracks are not like that. They may have one or two really slow speed corners, but for the most part they are predominately FAST corners. In that situation, the DS's are out classed. But look at the typical Motard track, very few straights and lots of tight stuff. MotoGP bikes would suck in those conditions, and that would be a drag...

Adios,

Tourmeister said:

Howdy,

Aerodynamics is a big part of it. Reducing the drag coefficient makes a bigger difference on top end speeds than just adding brute HP. Drag rises as the square of the velocity. This means the faster you go, the worse the drag gets, but in a nonlinear fashion. The drag at 40mph is not twice that of at 20mph, it is actually FOUR times higher, and NINE times higher at 60mph......

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Sheesh Scott, that reminided me so much of school that I felt like I was falling asleep in the back of AE101 again.

Actually a pretty spot on descritption, well done.

As for the original post, I am hating you, . I grew up in that area and used to drive those roads all the time, but in a cage. I did not get my first street bike until we moved to Texas and now I truly wish I could get back there and do those roads again on a cycle.

Glad to hear I'm not the only CA native around here.

The whole issue of cornering with a DS brings up a question I've been mulling over... How much will the DS bikes increased suspension travel affect it's cornering ability?

I got to thinking about it after reading up about the cornering behavior of the rigids that are all the rage on the chopper building shows these days. I'd seen references to the rear tire hopping in a bumpy corner, due to the lack of suspension. Likewise, I've got a Jeep with a nice long travel suspension up front that allows me to stick to some really impossible looking terrain, at crawl speeds though.

Obviously, some degree of suspension travel is necessary to let the tires follow the ground contours whether it's a speed bump in a parking lot or a tire groove in a corner. The question is, do you hit a point where MORE available travel does not improve handling? On a paved road, do you see corner conditions extreme enough to allow an advantage to a long travel suspension on a DS bike?

Pardon the newb questions. I'm just trying to make sense of it all. Of course, I'm also thinking about the F650GS as a possible next bike.

I don't want to preempt Scotts nerdy answer, but there is a point at which travel gets so long that the resultant flex makes handling worse than the bumps it absorbs.

Also when a bike is leaned over, the usable suspension travel is significantly less than the total, as the suspension tries to respond in an up/down motion while its travel is in a slanted plane- precisely why a rigid tail would "skip" in a bumpy corner. (is that right, Scott?)

SVinAustin said:

As for the original post, I am hating you, . I grew up in that area and used to drive those roads all the time, but in a cage. I did not get my first street bike until we moved to Texas and now I truly wish I could get back there and do those roads again on a cycle.

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Understood I hate my friends back there that keep sending me pics.

For comparison, 3090 and 149 are the kinds of roads you take in California to GET to the twisties. (Before any body jumps me, Okay, there are a lot of loooooong straight roads too. I rode 99/I-5 from Fresno to Disneyland. and San Diego. That is a butt-numbing experience.)


Scott will probably explain all of this much clearer than I.

Squeaky said:

Tourmeister said:

The wide bars make steering almost effortless. I think turn and the bike turns.

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That's exactly the reason I'm moving up to a DS/Adventure tourer-type bike. I love riding your GS and not having to think about how to steer, just thinking about the turn is all it takes. Besides, the upright seating is MUCH more comfy.

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So, when is this move going to happen? What kind of bike are you yearning for?

Chris

I don't want to preempt Scotts nerdy answer, but

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:rofl

It is ironic that this evening at the bike night we were laughing about nerdness and I commented that I revel in my nerdness. Having accepted it and come to terms with it has set me free...

As the to nerd question, there are lots of factors in what it takes to make a bike corner well. Ideally, all up and down motion will be absorbed and damped out by the suspension so that the tires stay in contact with the road surface at all times. The purpose of suspension is to keep your tires in contact with the road so that you can maintain control.

Things like launching bikes, trucks, cars, etc,... in offroad racing are extreme cases where a soft landing is a dominating factor in the design of the suspension. Such soft suspension would not be very useful for street riding. The other extreme, racing bikes, cars and yes... even trucks on smooth paved tracks will see very stiff suspensions with little travel. But the higher speeds generate higher loads in the suspension so the extra stiff ride is necessary to handle those loads. The dualsport seeks the middle ground. It has the suspension travel of a typical sportbike (5" or so) and softer suspension for absorbing larger irregularities in the riding surface. This is why they are not good for serious offroading nor hardcore speed riding. But put them in the twisty pavement where it is relatively smooth and the speeds not real high, and they are great because of the aforementioned reasons like the wide bars, low end torque and such.

The long long forks of a pure offroad bike are likely to be pretty flexible. This helps offroad because the flexing of the forks acts like a suspension in and of itself. This is also why we see swingarms on the racebikes getting tall and thin, lots of rigidity in the direction the shock operates, but flexible out of plane for the shock. The swingarms are "tuned" for optimum flexing to absorb bumps while the bike is leaned over.

Many people forget that tires are a part of the suspension as well. The tire is basically a spring/damper system. The flexing of the caracass absorbs bumps and can help damp out osciallations. Ride with low tires and you'll see the bike feels like it is floating around and is squirmy. Over inflate them and you will feel like you are riding on rocks. Also, the tire is much more likely to skip and loose traction when leaned over. This is part of the reason why track riders always say lower the pressure to get better traction. Like everything else though, this has limitations to its application.

It's all based on very simple principles, but the complex interaction of all those principles makes the understanding and application of them somewhat of a black art at times There is no one perfect setup for all situations, or even one situation. There are always compromises and trade offs being made. Many of the current dualsports have reached a nice sweet spot range in that respect. I think this is why they are so versatile and also why they are getting so popular.

Adios,