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View Full Version : Bandit 1250 TFI/Power Commander Box Specific


PhilS
02-16-2008, 09:22 PM
Hello Bandites.

Does anyone have specific experience with Dale's TFI box or a Power Commander that they would be kind enough to share????

As Joe pointed out, my pipes are gold - and thank you for noticing buddy. Not by choice, mind you, but due to Suzuki and the EPA idiotic lean requirements. I am considering tossing money at the TFI box to richen things up a bit and was wondering if this is the right path to take to fuel mixture enlightenment?:zen: One question I had was how a TFI box works when set to specific map when environmental changes occur - like altitude, temperature, etc, etc - unless this is on autopilot and all would be well without interaction.

I know some have spoken on this in the Mega Thread and a bit in another thread, I just thought a dediciated FI Mapping Change thread was in order.

Any thoughts, outside of those telling me I'm clueless, would be appreciated.

rworm
02-16-2008, 09:43 PM
http://www.fuelmotousa.com/

suzukijo
02-16-2008, 11:30 PM
you callin me clueless?

PhilS
02-17-2008, 07:22 AM
you callin me clueless?

No........I, Phil, am the one who is clueless.:trust:

As a matter of fact, my pipes will be "shiney and chromey" again thanks to your suggestion, but I am now more concerned about keeping them that way and not fight against a "lean EPA engine" - which appears to be my cause.

I would like to find a FI box that sniffs the exhaust and adjusts accordingly as opposed to a straight map. That would seem logical to me, although I am not smart here and need some insight - thus this thread now exists.

Onward....:rider:

rworm
02-17-2008, 08:18 AM
No........I, Phil, am the one who is clueless.:trust:

As a matter of fact, my pipes will be "shiney and chromey" again thanks to your suggestion, but I am now more concerned about keeping them that way and not fight against a "lean EPA engine" - which appears to be my cause.

I would like to find a FI box that sniffs the exhaust and adjusts accordingly as opposed to a straight map. That would seem logical to me, although I am not smart here and need some insight - thus this thread now exists.

Onward....:rider:

http://www.widebandcommander.com/images/images/NavBar2_05.jpg
I dont think any of them "change automatically"But they set up a map for your specific app.-if you then change something else you just download another map /you can hook up your laptop to this one also download and send it in if fuel curve needs they see it right there send map download and your done-Way easier than pulling 4 carbs off and rejetting love that FI



rworm

Roy
02-17-2008, 08:22 AM
You have to disable the O2 beast before anything will work. Dobeck Performance makes the O2 bypass plug in. I was lucky and snapped up one of Dales O2 bypasses before he quit selling them stand alone. Dobeck makes the O2 for him. After that I hooked a yosh YAFMS box up and re-mapped the stock ECU. All I added was +5 on the low end and it runs fine and still gets decent mileage around 40 mpg steady or ripping. The thing I hated stock was the lean surging at around 3500 rpms it was terrible with the O2 hooked up. Stock I was getting an incredible 44~50 mpg that ain't right on a bug I4 so I knew it was terribly lean stock. It actually ran okay before the re-map and just the O2 bypassed but I wanted to add a little more injector duration down low. My 1000 is re-mapped 5,+5,+5 low, mid, high but I don't care about fule mileage on it and it is not a closed loop system like the 1250.

dwoodul
02-17-2008, 09:02 AM
Phil - like you I would like to add a power-commander or something like that in a few months. My question is: Does anyone know if the lean stock condition will lead to any reliability issues (overheating, running too hot etc?). I don't want the bike to be too stressed as I plan on owning this for a long time (how many times have I said that - 30 bikes later...). My reason for adding a PC would be to simply smooth out the bike and lessen the lean stress. Anyway I don't want it too lean and I don't want it to run too rich and have a lot of junk build-up in the cylinder/plugs. BTW: I'm still learning how the EFI works and how a unit such as a power-commander affects the stock FI unit. Heck - for a while I thought the PC replaced the stock unit. Any 25 word or less tutorial will be appreciated.

PS: I know I need to read the manual but do these bikes require a vacume adjustment/ballance? I heard this does wonders for the V-Strom and other bikes as far as smoothness. Even my old Spirit seemed like a new bike with the vac adj done correctly.

Thanks,

Ol Dave

gunzip
02-17-2008, 09:57 AM
From what I understand anout the dobeck/TFI box it plugs inline and you can add fuel in about 4 bands [ or leave them stock] You have to disable the O2 sensor because it will detect the extra fuel in the ratio and try to compensate for it. I do not believe you have to give up any of the other benefits of FI , temp and altitude sensors will still do their thing .

gunzip
02-17-2008, 10:02 AM
I'm debating which unit to go with myself . The dobeck /TFI looks pretty straightforward to adjust , you don't have to load 'maps' it has a row of adjustment screws for the different rpm ranges etc. . Think of it as setting the idle mixture screws on a carb .

rworm
02-17-2008, 04:35 PM
I'm debating which unit to go with myself . The dobeck /TFI looks pretty straightforward to adjust , you don't have to load 'maps' it has a row of adjustment screws for the different rpm ranges etc. . Think of it as setting the idle mixture screws on a carb .

I couldn,t find a dobeck for 07 bandit



rworm

PhilS
02-17-2008, 05:06 PM
I couldn,t find a dobeck for 07 bandit



rworm

Currently marketed through www.Holeshot.com.

treybrad
02-17-2008, 11:25 PM
Well, I've been happy with my TFI from Holeshot. Setup is simple, Dale will tell you what the settings need to be for your mods. There's 4 pots I think, you just set it and forget it. The box itself is physically small and very simple to wire up and install.

The o2 sensor gets unplugged so the computer doesn't try to compensate for the extra fuel, so it isn't going to be 'smart' and adjust the map for altitude/temp/etc.

I get around 39mpg commuting, where I was getting maybe a couple better before the TFI. I get around 44-46mpg out in the Hill Country, which is pretty much exactly what I got before, maybe 1mpg worse... Today, on a trip to Llano and back I got 43.2 mpg riding 2up with the lady as pillion so I have no complaints on mileage.

As far as the headers being gold.. that's just going to happen. Mine are very golden, but the rest of the bike is so dirty, they blend right in... :lol2:

trey

PhilS
02-18-2008, 10:02 PM
Well, I've been happy with my TFI from Holeshot. Setup is simple, Dale will tell you what the settings need to be for your mods. There's 4 pots I think, you just set it and forget it. The box itself is physically small and very simple to wire up and install.

The o2 sensor gets unplugged so the computer doesn't try to compensate for the extra fuel, so it isn't going to be 'smart' and adjust the map for altitude/temp/etc.

I get around 39mpg commuting, where I was getting maybe a couple better before the TFI. I get around 44-46mpg out in the Hill Country, which is pretty much exactly what I got before, maybe 1mpg worse... Today, on a trip to Llano and back I got 43.2 mpg riding 2up with the lady as pillion so I have no complaints on mileage.

As far as the headers being gold.. that's just going to happen. Mine are very golden, but the rest of the bike is so dirty, they blend right in... :lol2:

trey

OkeeDokee....I get it now. You and Dale both answered and I am much better now. I will be buying Dale's box, plug, and settings in early May once my Q1 commissions come in (which is where the extra bike crap money comes from). His bone stock to Stage 1 Dyno runs show about a 10% tq increase throughout the range I run in most often, plus any lean fixing makes this a welcome addition...........for $275! :eek2:

treybrad
02-19-2008, 09:42 AM
His bone stock to Stage 1 Dyno runs show about a 10% tq increase throughout the range I run in most often, plus any lean fixing makes this a welcome addition...........for $275! :eek2:

Is that just for the TFI box, or are you getting a slip-on too? Either way, the lean surge situation should be gone. If anything, mine is running rich, my exhaust pipe is very sooty, but I'll take that over running lean any day...

I'm foaming at the mouth over the header he just dynoed... 15hp on top of the stage1 kit puts the 1250 at 130hp and 94ft/lb... that's +30hp from stock w/o ever opening the motor.... :eek:

trey

PhilS
02-19-2008, 10:16 AM
Is that just for the TFI box, or are you getting a slip-on too? Either way, the lean surge situation should be gone. If anything, mine is running rich, my exhaust pipe is very sooty, but I'll take that over running lean any day...

I'm foaming at the mouth over the header he just dynoed... 15hp on top of the stage1 kit puts the 1250 at 130hp and 94ft/lb... that's +30hp from stock w/o ever opening the motor.... :eek:

trey

I really don't have a lean surge issue that I've noticed. I already have the comp2 which was put on when Dale made the tour midpipe. So for me, I am just looking for a few more HP/TQ and I like messing with the bike. Also, if it runs richer and a bit cooler, that would be preferred.

treybrad
02-19-2008, 10:44 AM
I already have the comp2 which was put on when Dale made the tour midpipe.

:doh: Guess I should've looked at your avatar... I think you'll be happy w/ the TFI. Just the peace of mind that the bike is running cooler and not lean makes me happy. I'll sacrifice the extra 1-2mpg.

trey

GregH
02-23-2008, 03:29 PM
I'm foaming at the mouth over the header...130hp and 94ft/lb...
But what are you going to do with all of that horsepower? :eek2:

gunzip
02-24-2008, 09:39 PM
But what are you going to do with all of that horsepower? :eek2:

keep my cruiser riding clone head buddies in their place :rider:

Sheep
03-03-2008, 11:52 PM
Hey fellers, new to this forum...
Bought my black non-ABS 1250 in Sept '07 and have 4700mi on the bike. After finding DW's website, I started buying his stuff. His 14" pipe went on the bike at 700mi, then I installed his Dobeck TPI with the O2 plug, airbox mod with K&N, etc about 500mi later. All surging completely gone, fabulously smoother and all kinds of grunt from 3K up... you can run it down much lower if you just roll on throttle easily and it will NEVER stumble. Highly recommend the pipe and tuning kit. Waiting for him to start production on his header.

Dale's products are so well thought out and beautifully fabbed. I've also got his old fluted style reservoir covers, wheel hugger, mirror extensions, galfer front brake lines, his chain lube, gray CRG levers, and the 17T primary (hang onto the skidlid!) will go on next week. I replaced the OEM bulbs with just PIAA extreme whites and readjusted aim and what a big improvement. The windscreen and Speedo-Healer are next up on order list. I've removed rear pegs, raised rear plate and cut the beaver tail below. Have gold Ariete 11.3mm valve stems for the powdercoated & mirror-polished wheels. Using Cortech sport bags and large "trunk" for tours.

My gas mileage never runs below 45mpg (on uncorrected speedo). I just went through the OEM 218's and will be trying the Mich Road Pilots.

Just love this bike!!! Finally adjusted to the seat though I'll probably get the Corbin which was recently offered. I use the Bandit every single time weather permits (not one to ride in rain by choice) and a 100mi ride is just a short jaunt; getting ready for the 3000mi run this summer.

Hope some of the above might help someone.:thumb:

banditbobo
05-27-2008, 02:32 PM
I recently added a Power Commander (Offroad/racing only of course) to my 2007 Bandit; this done after I added a Yoshi TRS CF muffler (note that that the TRS is quiet enough that I could pull the silencer without having dogs howl for blocks around). The O2 sensor was disabled by adding the plug to the bike.

Once I wired in the unit I downloaded a copy of a map from the DynaJet/Power Commander site (it was all I could find) for the European model, Micron slip-on exhaust with baffle, Stock or aftermarket airfilter, Dynojet O2 eliminator fitted. It worked well enough to run the engine without fear of meltdown.

At these altitudes the usual problem is running rich which gives you golden pipes and stumbling response to snapping the throttle open.

So I took the bike to a local tuner, SR-Tuning in Colorado Springs, CO (good guy BTW) who tuned the Power Commander and gave me another 5%-ish on both torque and HP, and a MUCH smoother running bike.

Summary: with stock filter, and stock pipes, but Yoshi TRS and O2 sensor blocked I jumped from max HP of 96.25, torque of 77.98Ft/lbs to
100.78HP (I could feel that .78 horse cut in) and max torque if 81.25Ft/lbs.

At this alititue (7400'). can't complain about that.

Note the sea level HP corrected value of 115HP. and 93Ft/lbs torque so I can go down to sea level and be happy with yet more HP. watch out ZX14s!

See below dyno run for all the nums-
:sun:

the .jpg may be a bit small; if somebody wants a larger copy let me know.

bob.proctor@post.com

CBXBob
05-27-2008, 04:47 PM
Dale is the way to go. He specializes only in selected bikes and each gets his full expertise and personal attention. I recommend the TFI tuning box, slip on, O2 bypass and K & N filter. Use Dale's proven settings and be happy. Just a satisified customer.

whitesands
05-27-2008, 05:25 PM
Phil - like you I would like to add a power-commander or something like that in a few months. My question is: Does anyone know if the lean stock condition will lead to any reliability issues (overheating, running too hot etc?). I don't want the bike to be too stressed as I plan on owning this for a long time (how many times have I said that - 30 bikes later...)
Ol Dave

This is something that worried me as well...There definitely is a little lean surge at very low rpms....

The effects of the lean condition don't seem to show up in coolant temps because the Bandit is the coolest running bike I've owned...I know that being lean can cause a bike to run hot but perhaps with the bandit being a naked bike, having a water cooled oil cooler, and just a well designed cooling system prevents the buildup of abnormal amounts of heat...

The addition of fuel management software to richen it up in the low end should serve to smooth out the surging...But as far as overheating goes it doesn't seem to be an issue with the bandit...

My fan has come on once or twice and that was when it was 96 degrees and humid after a long ride then hitting a bunch of consecutive stop signs followed by a long slow 15mph or so drive to my garage, after reaching the garage and waited for it to open I sat to listen to the idle for a minute to listen for something and the fan came on right when I went to shut it off....
In contrast my RC51 fan would come on several times while just riding in cold weather...I'd go for a long ride and as soon as I came to a couple of stops signs or light and the fan would come on and then it would stop after I took off riding a while and got some air flow....then it would come on again at the next stop light...I'm talking 50 degree weather...I used to purposely get in the right lane so I could turn at a stoplight and go a round about way to keep going on the same road without stopping for too long to keep it from running too hot...If you didin't the coolant temps would climb and climb...Ask anyone that's had an RC51 and they'll tell you...The fans on that bike run all the time and they're programmed to come on around 220 as most bikes are...

whitesands
05-27-2008, 05:38 PM
Roy's original question is something I've thought about as well...If Dale tunes the TFI in his atmospheric conditions and there's no smart adjusting to keep the fuel management to a certain percent from stock under all conditions then his setting may be off if you don't live in the same atmospheric conditions where he does his tuning...And this would go for any other type of system unless there's some sort of "smart adjustment". Or does the TFI box keep the same A/F ratio no matter what the conditions are ?

Anyone know about this ?

treybrad
05-27-2008, 05:51 PM
Roy's original question is something I've thought about as well...If Dale tunes the TFI in his atmospheric conditions and there's no smart adjusting to keep the fuel management to a certain percent from stock under all conditions then his setting may be off if you don't live in the same atmospheric conditions where he does his tuning...And this would go for any other type of system unless there's some sort of "smart adjustment". Or does the TFI box keep the same A/F ratio no matter what the conditions are ?

Anyone know about this ?

Well, Dale is on the Northern California coast, so for us in TX, it isn't much of an issue, elevation should be about the same.

However, my understanding is the TFI/ECU combo will work much like a set of tuned carbs. It won't adjust for higher elevation or correct for A/F ratio like modern car EFI systems do.. bikes just aren't that *smart* yet.

Even completely stock, the 02 sensor on the bike isn't there to compensate for A/F ratios.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong... it's happened before...

trey

Sheep
05-27-2008, 11:24 PM
Banditbobo, have you ever seen DW's dynos on www.Holeshot.com?
If not, here it is. This is not the very latest chart with his header... bike was around 135whp before he sent his proto header out for pre-production preparation. That is a HUGE 1/3rd jump from bonestock without even getting inside the motor! His dyno facility is approx 250' above sea level.

This motor is a real torque animal, and all in the right place... down low... which is great for the touring community also. I've lost no gas mileage with his kit either.

http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w225/sheepstb/1250_dynochart1.jpg

GregH
05-30-2008, 11:41 AM
That chart just makes me drool. I can hardly wait to see the new chart with the full system on the Bandit.:flip:

CBXBob
05-30-2008, 09:22 PM
The 1250 Bandit has an air intake temp/pressure sensor.

whitesands
06-03-2008, 09:00 PM
Here's a dyno chart of the full exhaust, air filter, and TFI box...about 85 ft.lbs torque at 2500 RPM and over 96 ft. lbs at peak ! Except for a few HP on top the Bandit 1250 with the mods is much stronger than a stock Concours 14...The Concours peaks at 91 ft.lbs torque.

red757
07-08-2008, 12:57 AM
well i just purchased a PC3 usb and a yoshi S/S trs slip on. Hopefully they will be here by the end of the week.

So banditbobo if you have any insight from your experience with the PC I would greatly appreciate it.

Seems as though we are the black sheep and not going with the TFIbox:zen: . I know a little bit about PC tuning and mapping but from cars, so it will be interesting to see how this works out.

PS:i currently ride at about 4500ft norm and up to 8500ft in the mountains. When i go back home it will be about 13ft above sea level.:rider:

sproggy
07-08-2008, 04:23 AM
I've had a PC111 on mine for a week now (with K&N, modded airbox cover, Yoshi oval cone, PAIR feed blocked and a TRE) and it vastly improves the smoothness but it's not perfect yet. Power is clearly up a bit but not by earth-shattering amounts. There aren't exactly a lot of different maps available to try but the one they ship for a K&N filter and Micron can is reasonable. Not quite right around 2,500rpm (a bit snatchy and rough so I guess it's still lean) but better in the rest of the rev range. The engine sounds somehow 'meatier' too at idle and low revs - not louder, but....how can I describe it.....more solid? More of a big-engine burble.

I'm going to get mine custom-mapped after I've fitted my Arrow headers and I'm hoping that this will sort out the 2,500rpm glitch.

I was interested to see that the map doesn't just add fuel - there are a number of points where the fuel is knocked back by several percent and many where the fuelling is left alone, but I didn't get a chance to look in any more detail as I dropped the laptop just after loading the map onto the bike...... So now the laptop needs fixing before I can fiddle any more. :-(

MtnTrax
07-08-2008, 11:23 AM
I was interested to see that the map doesn't just add fuel - there are a number of points where the fuel is knocked back by several percent and many where the fuelling is left alone, but I didn't get a chance to look in any more detail as I dropped the laptop just after loading the map onto the bike...... So now the laptop needs fixing before I can fiddle any more. :-(

And I think this is why I'ld do a PCIII myself. The ability to remove fuel if necessary can be a big plus if the stock fuel mapping is overly rich at some areas. I've run a TFI on a sled for the last 4 years and without that feature and the ability to store extra custom maps for say varying altitudes or temps it's been somewhat of a a hindrance to getting tuning spot on. A wideband A/F sensor and gauge would make the PCIII a lot more accurate for home tuning mode without resorting to paying a shop to program up a custom map but that's quite a bit more moola either way you look at it.
My extra play money for now is going to be sent off to Sargents so for now an efi controller is just parked in the wish list. The pain in the rear needs some help before the butt dyno does....

sproggy
07-08-2008, 11:57 AM
A wideband A/F sensor and gauge would make the PCIII a lot more accurate for home tuning mode without resorting to paying a shop to program up a custom map but that's quite a bit more moola either way you look at it.

Unless you plan on making frequent changes to your bike's setup I reckon the money is better spent on a professional, custom map than it is on hardware to allow you to make an approximation of the job yourself. After I've fitted my headers (I think an elderly man called Luigi is hand-crafting them - why else would they take so long to arrive?) I don't plan any more tuning changes mainly because, without going inside the engine which I don't want to do at the moment, there aren't really any more to make. So once the Bandit is set up it can stay that way and I'll go back to tinkering with my Lambretta instead. There's plenty of scope for tuning in that one.......:rider:

Ah, I love the smell of 2-stroke in the morning.......

banditbobo
07-08-2008, 01:01 PM
well i just purchased a PC3 usb and a yoshi S/S trs slip on. Hopefully they will be here by the end of the week.

So banditbobo if you have any insight from your experience with the PC I would greatly appreciate it.

Seems as though we are the black sheep and not going with the TFIbox:zen: . I know a little bit about PC tuning and mapping but from cars, so it will be interesting to see how this works out.

PS:i currently ride at about 4500ft norm and up to 8500ft in the mountains. When i go back home it will be about 13ft above sea level.:rider:

hi:
I've been VERY happy with the PC so far; the unit is easy to install (see the install instructions on their website - took me about 20 mins with preplanning). be sure youorder the O2 bypass. it too is easy to locate and replug.
I agree that using professional (albeit expensive) help to remap is worth it - I was running so rich after I installed the unit that I was belching black dry smoke - yuck! and I didn't have time to figure out the remapping - plus I wasn't sure if I'd wind up melting pistons if I got a little out of control on remapping.
The PC smoothed things out nicely - and while I agree that Dale and Holeshot are a very viable choice (and I'll probably head over that way to see what new stuff he has) the PC just felt right - FWIW.
I also recommend the Speedo Healer - easy to install, and it's nice to know (once the setup is performed) that 65 indicated = 65 actual.

let's see, what else can I waste money on this month?

PhilS
07-08-2008, 05:11 PM
Ah, I love the smell of 2-stroke in the morning.......

.........it smells like, victory!

sproggy
07-08-2008, 06:52 PM
be sure youorder the O2 bypass. it too is easy to locate and replug.

That's odd - the O2 bypass comes as standard with the PC 111 in the UK. Does it not in the US?

red757
07-08-2008, 07:39 PM
That's odd - the O2 bypass comes as standard with the PC 111 in the UK. Does it not in the US?

Uh oh. I thought i read that the dynojet o2 bypass comes with the PCIII usb. Maybe I'm seeing things again.:rofl:

Also I have a Dynojet wideband commander on order. It's better than wastin my money at the Indian casino's:clap: I like tinkering with electronic stuff and have heard a lot of good things about tuning with the ram air effect and have done a bit of the same kind of test and tune stuff with cars so it should be fun.
Plus I travel a lot and end up in many different altitudes and I don't wanna have to get it dyno tuned every new altitude or when i get some headers.Also, I don't know any good tuners out here and personally would rather have the satisfaction of breaking, i mean doing it myself.:lol2: .

for the finale when i buy the dynojet lcd screen I can have maps for different situations and switch on the fly. At least I'm back to having a productive hobby to waste money on.

whitesands
07-09-2008, 03:02 AM
I think I'm just going to keep it stock except perhaps 02 bypass or pair system removal...

Roy
07-09-2008, 06:48 AM
I think I'm just going to keep it stock except perhaps 02 bypass or pair system removal...

that is what I did.;-) great fuel mileage also which is important out on the road.

whitesands
07-09-2008, 07:15 PM
that is what I did.;-) great fuel mileage also which is important out on the road.


better or worse fuel mileage with the 02 bypass ? what exactly does it do anyway ?

banditbobo
07-09-2008, 09:00 PM
That's odd - the O2 bypass comes as standard with the PC 111 in the UK. Does it not in the US?

I ran into a situation where the kit could be ordered for a short time sans the O2 bypass. I think that's no longer the case - you get the O2 as a normal part of the PC kit.

banditbobo
07-09-2008, 09:03 PM
better or worse fuel mileage with the 02 bypass ? what exactly does it do anyway ?

as I understand it (always an iffy proposition) the O2 bypass feeds the oxygen sensor a middle of the road value to keep it happy, i.e. it won't attempt to twiddle the fuel mixture via the ECU.

it's another way to get/keep the fuel/air mixture under control - that coupled with the fuel remapper de jure allows better tuning control.

sproggy
07-10-2008, 04:11 AM
as I understand it (always an iffy proposition) the O2 bypass feeds the oxygen sensor a middle of the road value to keep it happy, i.e. it won't attempt to twiddle the fuel mixture via the ECU.

The O2 bypass actually cuts the O2 sensor entirely out of the loop so with an O2 bypass fitted the only purpose of the sensor is to plug the hole in the headers....... The O2 bypass, I believe, feeds the ECU a voltage simply to prevent it from complaining (throwing up a fault code) that the sensor is disconnected.

With the factory setup (O2 sensor in use) the injection will run in closed-loop mode for a proportion of its rev/throttle position range. For example up to 3000rpm and 40% throttle opening (those figures are actually from my old BMW - the Bandit is likely to be different). When in closed-loop mode the ECU uses the O2 sensor to monitor the exhaust gas content and determine how much fuel to throw at the engine. In these conditions it doesn't stick to a fixed map - it just aims for a particular air/fuel ratio.

In open loop mode (i.e. above the closed-loop limits or under all conditions with the O2 sensor bypassed) the ECU will use a fixed fuelling map based upon throttle position and engine speed. Generally speaking this will allow it to run richer and, consequently, often smoother. When it comes to remapping using a TFI or PC111 if you don't bypass the O2 sensor you'll still have no control over the fuelling when it's in closed-loop (it'll be the same air/fuel mixture as standard) and as this is typically the rev/throttle position range where the engine runs worst due to the manufacturer's need to comply with emissions regulations the benefits of bypassing the O2 sensor are often greatest.

I've just run through a couple of tankfuls on my usual commute and with the PC111 and O2 bypass it seems to be using around 3% more fuel than before, but then it's running a far from optimised map for my setup. But even if after dyno mapping it still uses 3% more, IMO the benefits are worth the extra cost of around ú0.04 per mile. It runs noticeably cooler in traffic too.

pesto_boy
07-10-2008, 02:01 PM
I don't mean to open a whole can of worms here, but I'm starting to question if I really need a PC at all.

I have a Yosh can on my 1250 - no PC, no O2 bypass, no K&N and no air box mods. - and, as far as I can tell, the bike is running flawlessly; no surges, stutters, spatters, etc...
I do realize that it is running way too lean from the factory, but I only notice the heat when I'm stuck in traffic for a long time - and even then I notice that the fan barely ever comes on, therefore the bike can't be running that hot.

For those of you that have installed the PC: do you think there is a 'truely noticeable' improvement in the way the bike will run to make it worth my while to go through all the trouble that is required for a PC installation (as in O2 bypass, air box mod., endless maps, etc?

Many thanks for your imput, I'm truly sitting on the fence on this...:giveup:

sproggy
07-10-2008, 02:22 PM
I don't mean to open a whole can of worms here, but I'm starting to question if I really need a PC at all.

Clearly you haven't tried a bike fitted with one.....:rider:

I have a Yosh can on my 1250 - no PC, no O2 bypass, no K&N and no air box mods........... For those of you that have installed the PC: do you think there is a 'truely noticeable' improvement in the way the bike will run to make it worth my while to go through all the trouble that is required for a PC installation (as in O2 bypass, air box mod., endless maps, etc?

Firstly, you don't need a modified bike to gain an advantage from a PC - it can rectify any fuelling 'issues' that a standard bike suffers due to emission and noise regulation.

Secondly, OH YES! It's noticeable the first time you pull away - the bike is SO much smoother.

Thirdly, it's not a lot of trouble (less than half an hour to fit) and you don't need to do the airbox mod just to use a PC. Or any other mod. Just fit the PC. And there aren't endless maps involved - find one you like and leave it that way, unless you modify the exhaust/induction further in which case of course you should expect to have to re-map.

Fourthly.........forget everything I said above - if you're happy with the bike as it is and you don't suffer the endless urge to fiddle with things like I and many others here do then leave it alone and just enjoy riding it. Fitting a PC or TFI isn't compulsory!

twist
07-10-2008, 03:05 PM
I don't mean to open a whole can of worms here, but I'm starting to question if I really need a PC at all.

I had the same question and not being as mechanically inclined as many on this forum was reluctant to mess with a good thing - the stock bike.

But I went ahead and did the "stage 1" kit, (scorpion pipe, O2 bypass, modified filter, and TFI box).

Yes it makes a difference, quite noticeable too - but I agree with sproggy, if you are happy with what you've got save your money. I like the changes these mods made, I especially like the smoother power band across the entire RPM range.

But the bike was plenty nice, and more that powerful enough, before the mods too. If the money is not an issue, I'd suggest giving it a try, all of these mods are easily undone. :rider:

pesto_boy
07-10-2008, 03:18 PM
Thanks for the feedback guys!
I do enjoy the bike as it is and it is virtually 'surge-free'. But if a PC/TFI will make a difference, either smothness or power-wise, I do agree that it is a worthwhile mod.

Thanks again.

whitesands
07-10-2008, 06:37 PM
With the 02 sensor working it causes the ECM to alter the A/f ratio to a leaner condition up to a certain point in the rpms ? So basically when doing the 02 bypass it will allow the ECM to use the stock mapping making it richer in the lower rpms ?

My only complaint is low rpm surging at slow speeds....Should 02 bypass do the job ?

Roy
07-10-2008, 07:17 PM
With the 02 sensor working it causes the ECM to alter the A/f ratio to a leaner condition up to a certain point in the rpms ? So basically when doing the 02 bypass it will allow the ECM to use the stock mapping making it richer in the lower rpms ?

My only complaint is low rpm surging at slow speeds....Should 02 bypass do the job ?


Yes to a certain extent. I have just the bypass and it runs really good with that alone. BTW you can make your own bypass if you have a soder gun two small female brass plug and a 1/2 watt 1k resistor.;-) Plug into the bottom two male prongs on the O2 plug coupler.

red757
07-11-2008, 12:19 AM
Well i got my yoshi pipe and PC3usb in today. It was a pretty smooth install. Took the longest to trace the o2 sensor down.:lol2: Didnt do any airbox mod or plug the PAIR hose. Took me a hot minute to realize you had to have the bike running to download maps.:doh: I was afraid to start it up without putting the proper map in it. It's suppose to come with a stock map already programmed but you never know. I loaded the stock/aftermarket filter, micron slip on exhaust, o2 bypass, european model map.(i would like to know the difference in european vs US model engine wise if there is any).

By the way I purchased the PC and pipe from pipecity and I must say their service thus far has been top notch. I live in AZ so I ordered it on monday evening about 8pm and it was delivered at noon today thursday. No shipping fee however living in AZ they charge AZ sales tax.:yawn:

Any how went for a little ride and the butt dyno definitely is very happy. The front wheel floats in 1st and 2nd if you get on it around 4k or so. The sound is exactly what I wanted. I'm not using the baffle so it has a real throaty sound but not obnoxious or zippy like a full sport bike. The throttle response feels a bit snappier and smoother throughout the rpm's.

I'm not concerned at all about gas mileage but will try to get an average just to see.(Anyhow I run 100 octane in it 6.49 a gallon:sun: ) Overall I am very satisfied thus far and hopefully it won't rain tomorrow and i can go see what she's all about.

Had some problems with the wideband commander order from a different merchant so I'm just going to hold off on that for a little.

PS: looks like the difference between the euro and us map(which they don't have yet) is the fuel quality difference. Euro fuel generally will make a bike run richer it seems. Going to try out the accelerator pump feature in the morning.:rider:

sproggy
07-11-2008, 04:00 AM
I loaded the stock/aftermarket filter, micron slip on exhaust, o2 bypass, european model map.(i would like to know the difference in european vs US model engine wise if there is any).

There won't be any internal differences but the US model, from a few comments I've heard, has extra emissions gubbins mounted somewhere - a carbon breather filter or something? And, having to conform to different emissions regs and (the availability of) lower fuel quality, the map in the ECU is probably subtly different to the European one. This means that using a PC map for a European ECU on a US bike won't result in the same fuelling as the same map on a European bike because the OE map is different.

I'm not concerned at all about gas mileage but will try to get an average just to see.(Anyhow I run 100 octane in it 6.49 a gallon:sun: )

Other than (possibly) improved additives affecting upper engine cleanliness you won't see any performance benefit from using high octane fuel. You'd only see a difference if the engine had knock sensors to allow the ECU to alter timing to get the best out of the fuel you've used. BMW K and R series bikes do this (and in the case of the K-series bikes produce considerably more power with higher octane fuel) but the Bandit certainly doesn't.

PS: looks like the difference between the euro and us map(which they don't have yet) is the fuel quality difference. Euro fuel generally will make a bike run richer it seems.

Not really. Richness is a measure of air/fuel ratio and isn't affected by fuel quality. Within limits, though, it is possible to prevent detonation/pinking/knocking (call it what you will) by dumping a bit more fuel into an engine. The lowest fuel quality we get here is 95 octane so our bikes will be optimised to run on that. You guys can buy 91 octane so your bikes have to be able to cope with that lower octane (if they're measured by the same scale which they may not be). Assuming no internal engine differences it would make sense that either your fuelling is slightly richer or your timing is slightly retarded (or both) compared to ours. The outcome is that if we used a US map with our fuel the engine would be running slightly richer than necessary.

All of which suggests, of course, that our bikes are faster than yours because they're optimised for better fuel :rider:

red757
07-11-2008, 05:14 PM
Not really. Richness is a measure of air/fuel ratio and isn't affected by fuel quality. Within limits, though, it is possible to prevent detonation/pinking/knocking (call it what you will) by dumping a bit more fuel into an engine. The lowest fuel quality we get here is 95 octane so our bikes will be optimised to run on that. You guys can buy 91 octane so your bikes have to be able to cope with that lower octane (if they're measured by the same scale which they may not be). Assuming no internal engine differences it would make sense that either your fuelling is slightly richer or your timing is slightly retarded (or both) compared to ours. The outcome is that if we used a US map with our fuel the engine would be running slightly richer than necessary.

All of which suggests, of course, that our bikes are faster than yours because they're optimised for better fuel :rider:
this is fom the dynojet website, thats where I got the idea that fuel quality was different.
If I live in the United States can I use one of the European maps?
Dynojet offers different maps for the US market and the European market due to the differences in the fuels. In most cases the fuel available in Europe will make a bike run much richer than the fuel available in the US. For this reason we recommend that you use a map that coincides with the region in that you live in. Although we have seen some European maps work well for US bikes so it may be worth trying.
Too bad they don't have any US maps yet. Guess I gotta get some dyno time soon.

On a side note I have created a seperate problem altogether. I wasn't thinking straight this morning and went to update the firmware so I could try out the Accelerator pump feature and did it with the bike running and well, short story the bike shut off and firmware failed.:doh: the 9 volt adapter didnt ship with the unit but they are sending me one.
ive made a 9volt thingy with some small clips. I didnt think it was possible but thankfully some one else is a dolt like me and came up with a band aid fix.

I would like to verify if any of youz guys have a PC3usb 9 volt adapter that the red wire goes to the top right and black to the bottom left if you are looking directly at the connectors.
thanks
Edit: problem solved. it is actually the red + bottom left , black - top right on the connector on PC on mine.:zen: . enabled accelerator pump feature 90%sensitivity 15%fuel increase 20 revolutions. fun stuff.

whitesands
07-13-2008, 01:32 AM
Yes to a certain extent. I have just the bypass and it runs really good with that alone. BTW you can make your own bypass if you have a soder gun two small female brass plug and a 1/2 watt 1k resistor.;-) Plug into the bottom two male prongs on the O2 plug coupler.

Interesting and thanks for the information....How are the ones you've made working for you ? Unfortunately, I have no solder gun...I may have to make a purchase because I'd like to try the 02 bypass just to richen things up a bit to get rid of the low speed surging...It's not too bad, but I'd like to correct it....

Johnnycheese
07-13-2008, 08:29 AM
Edit: problem solved. it is actually the red + bottom left , black - top right on the connector on PC on mine.:zen: . enabled accelerator pump feature 90%sensitivity 15%fuel increase 20 revolutions. fun stuff.

Note that with the Acc feature on it will richen up the whole map.
this feature was designed for the 600-750 cc high rev bikes because the map sensor will not add enough fuel at high rpm going from WOT to close to WOT.
like going into a turn on a track.


ps the tfi is 1980's technology and if you can't pinpoint where you can add or subtract fuel why use it.
remeber it ONLY adds fuel over a broad area.

GregH
07-13-2008, 01:27 PM
...extra emissions gubbins...

Sproggy,
Definition please. :mrgreen:

sproggy
07-13-2008, 04:44 PM
Sproggy,
Definition please. :mrgreen:

Definition of 'gubbins' or an explanation of what I meant by the phrase?

Gubbins means equipment, paraphanalia, workings...um.....stuff.

What I meant by it was I think some people have mentioned removing an 'evap. canister'? Sounds like an emissions-related bit of equipment to me - whatever it is we don't have it on European spec bikes.

GregH
07-13-2008, 08:17 PM
I was after the definition of "gubbins." I love to pick up an extra piece of the lingo. Grašias.

rworm
07-13-2008, 08:24 PM
I was after the definition of "gubbins." I love to pick up an extra piece of the lingo. Grašias.
If ya keep goin your post count will be the highest ever:zen:
NEXT:clap:
rworm

red757
07-13-2008, 10:10 PM
Note that with the Acc feature on it will richen up the whole map.
this feature was designed for the 600-750 cc high rev bikes because the map sensor will not add enough fuel at high rpm going from WOT to close to WOT.
like going into a turn on a track.


ps the tfi is 1980's technology and if you can't pinpoint where you can add or subtract fuel why use it.
remeber it ONLY adds fuel over a broad area.

I backed off on the ACC pump. Went to 80% sensitivity, 15%fuel, 20 Revoultions. It kinda feels a bit different when i wack the throttle open but it's probably just psychological. Still waitin to play with it all more when the wideband comes in cause the nearest DYNO is over 3 hours away and I just don't have the time to schedule and get out there. Anyways I went ahead and bumped up all non zero'd cells 2% to compensate for the euro map per a friend of mines advice.:rider: I also made a map of the average between stock and euro slip on I will try out. So far the euro map and my +2% map run strong and smooth plus with the yoshi it sounds wonderful. I love this bike very fun and functional. Longest ride so far is about 400 miles rd trip and it was very easy on my knees and back.

Johnnycheese
07-13-2008, 10:39 PM
heck if you are in Az.
it would be worth going to see Walter at ECS.
he is every bit as good as I am.
3hrs is nothing I have bikes coming from N.Dakota to get mapped.

red757
07-13-2008, 10:58 PM
heck if you are in Az.
it would be worth going to see Walter at ECS.
he is every bit as good as I am.
3hrs is nothing I have bikes coming from N.Dakota to get mapped.

Cool. I'll give them a call tomorrow and see if I cant set some time aside to ride out there in the next couple of weeks.

GregH
07-14-2008, 04:11 PM
If ya keep goin your post count will be the highest ever:zen:
NEXT:clap:
rworm

But you know I wouldn't post pointlessly just to move the needle...:trust:

How much is the PCIII compared to the TFI? (See, I put a real question in there!)

red757
07-14-2008, 10:24 PM
PC3usb $290 shipped from pipe city or $275 (15 dollars off) if you buy an exhaust and the PC3. Just so happens I got a pipe and the PC3.But if you live in AZ you have to pay %7.8 sales tax.:yawn:

holeshot:
B1250 TFI box 2023ST $257.00
B1250 02 bypass module 0X-004 $14.86
B1250 K&N air filter SU-6000 $43.00
don't know how much shipping is

Johnnycheese
07-15-2008, 07:14 AM
damm I need to raise my price.
280.00tyd
but the pc3usb will add and subtract fuel at over 40 specfic area's

the tfi only adds fuel over 3 wide areas.

Sheep
09-01-2008, 04:28 PM
To those who still aren't sure about the value of a tuning box, I had DW's Stg 1 tuning (with his slipon) on my Bandit and it was well-worth the investment... it will make the engine truly smooth throughout entire operating range as well as bump the power a bit. It didn't even affect mileage 2mpg.

The TFI is simple install and error-free. Suggest the whole Stg 1 and an unrestricted muff... the B1250 is just not loud anyway due to its cam profiles. I had DW's shortest muff on mine too; very pleasant, subdued deep tone. I'd do the mod(s) again without thought. :thumb:

twist
09-01-2008, 05:58 PM
I was reluctant to try the TFI, but after being convinced by several others here I went and did it (the whole stage 1 kit from Dale, except I used a scorpion pipe).

Results were noticeable and much improved.

However, yesterday I was fiddling with my bike and noticed the exhaust pipe was quite sooty, so I turned the TFI box setting down about 1/2 unit from my original settings. I haven't been out riding yet with the new settings (rain) but maybe some of you already know if this was a mistake or not. Also, I am at 4500 feet (Utah) and perhaps the altitude makes a difference. (note: I get consistent ~43 MPG with the box, not sure what it was before, didn't track it) :eek2:

But to the point - yes the TFI makes a big difference for the better.

Sheep
09-01-2008, 08:00 PM
You might check with Dale if you are quite elevated, but sootiness is not necessarily a sign of too much fuel. My pipe would get sooty and I'm at sea level, a couple hundred feet below DW's compound, but the ECM should adapt. The "gasoline" these days isn't such anymore. Look at stock car exhausts and you'll see how sooty they get inside the tips; there's a whole bunch of additives in the fuel creating a mess.

You didn't mention it but you should do the airbox mod along with K&N.

I'd usually get 43-44mpg (not much stop/go around here; primarily open roads with few t-lights) and drive moderately aggressive. That's on a corrected speedo and with a 17T primary; I had installed a Speedo-Healer. My install directions are up on Healtech's website.

I'm installing a full header (no cat) Remus system on my current R1200R (the Powercone is already on) with K&N as soon as the Dobeck arrives Wed. This bike has significantly started to surge by just adding the slipon. Sure hope the TFI works as well on this bike as it did on the B1250!!! This TFI is their latest third gen version (more expensive) to work with the newer Bosch FI system. No pots, but series of blinking lights.

red757
09-01-2008, 11:40 PM
YMy pipe would get sooty and I'm at sea level, a couple hundred feet below DW's compound, but the ECM should adapt.
As far as I know using a tuning module with o2 bypassed your ecm is not going to change/adapt to anything. The only changes are going to come from adjusting your tuning module. That is why the o2 sensor is bypassed so the ecm will not continually try to correct from say a 13.4AFR back to 14.7AFR.

gunzip
09-02-2008, 01:28 AM
As far as I know using a tuning module with o2 bypassed your ecm is not going to change/adapt to anything. The only changes are going to come from adjusting your tuning module. That is why the o2 sensor is bypassed so the ecm will not continually try to correct from say a 13.4AFR back to 14.7AFR.

the o2 sensor is only one component of the fuel injection system , bypassing it will not disable the rest of the engine control modules functions. The altitude sensors , tps , coolant temp sensors etc all continue to do their thing , the bikes would be unrideable without them

houndawg
09-02-2008, 08:42 AM
the tfi and o2 bypass work togethter to richen up the fuel mixture.it makes a big difference in throttle response.dale walker will also give you the settings to tune it to your bike.

mi1lertm
10-03-2008, 05:05 AM
I believe that soot is created when you are richer then 14.7:1 AFM, I have noticed that my pipe has carbon soot on it. Not good for the Cat but since CO is non-smog enforced I am not worried. Pre TFI pipe was clean and slow, now quicker and a little smudge does not bother me.

Dink.1170
10-07-2008, 04:19 AM
Not really. Richness is a measure of air/fuel ratio and isn't affected by fuel quality. Within limits, though, it is possible to prevent detonation/pinking/knocking (call it what you will) by dumping a bit more fuel into an engine. The lowest fuel quality we get here is 95 octane so our bikes will be optimised to run on that. You guys can buy 91 octane so your bikes have to be able to cope with that lower octane (if they're measured by the same scale which they may not be).

Hope this little tidbit is of some help explaining the differences; from Wikpedia Quote"In most countries (including all of Europe and Australia) the "headline" octane rating, shown on the pump, is the RON, but in the United States, Canada and some other countries the headline number is the average of the RON and the MON, sometimes called the Anti-Knock Index (AKI), Road Octane Number (RdON), Pump Octane Number (PON), or (R+M)/2. Because of the 8 to 10 point difference noted above, the octane shown in the United States is 4 to 5 points lower than the same fuel elsewhere: 87 octane fuel, the "regular" gasoline in the US and Canada, is 91-92 in Europe. However most European pumps deliver 95 (RON) as "regular", equivalent to 90-91 US (R+M)/2, and some even deliver 98 (RON) or 100 (RON). "End Quote

Dink

sproggy
10-07-2008, 04:30 AM
......However most European pumps deliver 95 (RON) as "regular", equivalent to 90-91 US (R+M)/2, and some even deliver 98 (RON) or 100 (RON). "End Quote

In the UK and western European countries, 95 octane (RON) is 'regular unleaded' and 97/98/99 (it varies between suppliers) is 'super unleaded'. 95 octane is available everywhere, the higher octane alternatives are not stocked by all filling stations. The Bandit runs exactly the same on 99 as it does on 95 and gives the same fuel consumption (I've experimented). Not surprising as it has fairly low compression and no knock sensors so the ignition timing can't be altered to take advantage of the higher octane.

Dink.1170
10-07-2008, 05:05 AM
95RON is mid-range in Oz, we get "standard 91RON" 95RON "premium 98 RON".

Dink

mi1lertm
10-08-2008, 01:07 AM
One other tid-bit, when you see a yosh or other slip on HP chart on line it give ~4-6hp on the Bandit 1250. Good gain, if you then look at Dales chart and see another 5-6hp you might wonder why pay another $300 for the K&N O2 bypass and TFI? Well let me say a better analysis would be to show HP over time instead of HP over RPM. The TFI will increase the spooling of your motor and get you to red line with the added fuel (I'm sure PCIII would/will do the same thing). If you increase the air though the motor by using a slipon and/or adding a K&N (possiblily any hi-flow air filter) you will benifit from adding more fuel. Smoothness is great but decreasing your time to redline is much better. :trust:

Cheers,

Mark

red757
10-09-2008, 01:45 AM
FYI:New US map for PC3 and slip on.

I had been using the Euro map with o2 sensor bypass and was running rich :doh: and switched to the new map with o2 hooked up and the butt dyno sees a good change. I haven't been able to make it to a dyno yet and will be changing 4500' in elevation in a month or so it would be a waste of money to do it here now.

ReDdOg
10-11-2008, 04:29 AM
Get your bike professionally tuned. My bike has a PCIII, BMC Race filter, modified air box and GiPro Atre. Took about na hour to tune the PCIII at a Ducati shop nearby. 127HP and 98ft/lb of torque sounds great but smoothness of the motor and power delivery is where it excels now.

Frito Bandito
10-11-2008, 06:27 PM
Nice numbers. :thumb:

red757
10-12-2008, 02:09 AM
Get your bike professionally tuned. My bike has a PCIII, BMC Race filter, modified air box and GiPro Atre. Took about na hour to tune the PCIII at a Ducati shop nearby. 127HP and 98ft/lb of torque sounds great but smoothness of the motor and power delivery is where it excels now.

Useless with out dyno plot. I would love to see the chart. I am about to go back home for a while and will get a dyno tune then as the elevation change is from 4800 to about 20' above sea level. I think it would be a waste to tune here and have to re-tune in 2 months.

ReDdOg
10-15-2008, 01:17 AM
Okay here are my graphs:
http://i127.photobucket.com/albums/p134/ellanred/Bandit1250_dynohp.jpg
and
http://i127.photobucket.com/albums/p134/ellanred/Bandit1250_dynotorque.jpg

Pecan7
10-15-2008, 07:57 AM
I'm interested in the Dobeck/TFI or the PCIII just to smooth out the engine and reduce the minor lean surging. Don't care at all about any power gains - this thing has plenty of power already. Seems like both of those units would do the job well at steady throttle cruising.
Another issue that people have written about, and that I have also been bothered by, is the tendancy of the fuel injection system to cut off the fuel suddenly when you roll off the throttle slightly at higher revs. If I am on the interstate, for example, and going downhill at about 75 mph and roll off just slightly, the bike lurches pretty suddenly as if I had just rolled the throttle all the way closed.
Anyone know whether either of those two systems, the Dobeck/TFI or PCIII, would do a better job at handling that particular ill?
Someone had written in a thread on this site that turning up the #2 pot on the TFI helped that situation. I'm curious whether any PCIII users have noticed an improvement as well.

sproggy
10-15-2008, 08:07 AM
Another issue that people have written about, and that I have also been bothered by, is the tendancy of the fuel injection system to cut off the fuel suddenly when you roll off the throttle slightly at higher revs. If I am on the interstate, for example, and going downhill at about 75 mph and roll off just slightly, the bike lurches pretty suddenly as if I had just rolled the throttle all the way closed.
Anyone know whether either of those two systems, the Dobeck/TFI or PCIII, would do a better job at handling that particular ill?

From what I've been able to tell that effect is caused by the secondary throttle butterflies - you close the throttle a bit and the ECU over-estimates how much you want to slow down and closes the secondaries completely before realising its mistake and opening them up a again a fraction of a second later. It's not just the fuel being 'cut' IMO. The reason I think this is that removing the secondaries (with no other changes at the time) stopped that happening on my bike - there were a couple of places on my daily commute where the bike would always do what you describe but since removing the secondaries it's never done it again - with the standard fuel map or the custom one (via PC111).

You might be able to mask the problem to a degree by making it run richer (that tends to soften throttle response) but masking and curing it are different things. I don't believe that the TFI or PC111 provide a cure to this particular characteristic.

mi1lertm
10-15-2008, 11:54 AM
Okay here are my graphs:
http://i127.photobucket.com/albums/p134/ellanred/Bandit1250_dynohp.jpg
and
http://i127.photobucket.com/albums/p134/ellanred/Bandit1250_dynotorque.jpg

Sorry I hopped to the end of the thread, do you still have your secondary butterfly valves installed (already answerd question by looking at the end of your HP chart, removing them will smooth you out > 7K RPM's)? I also did not see in your mod's that you have ditched the CAT in your exhuast. Is this a dyno with only slight air box mod, yosh TRS and PCIII? If so, very impressive, I would say that the PCIII is doing a better job then the TFI. I have the HoleShot Stage 2 W/out butterfly's and still have a CAT exhuast. Pulled the top off the air box and am not seeing anything close to what you have. I as waiting for the CAT less exhuast to improve things to close to what you have. Here is the dyno for the stage 1/ stage 2, I upgraded from the 1 to the 2 and am happy, but still what you have is very nice indeed.

Cheers,

Mark

sproggy
10-15-2008, 12:24 PM
Is this a dyno with only slight air box mod, yosh TRS and PCIII? If so, very impressive, I would say that the PCIII is doing a better job then the TFI.

You can't compare graphs from different dyno's, not even if they're the same model. I have race headers (no cat) and a PC111 along with all the other usual mods (drilled airbox, K&N, blocked PAIR, secondaries removed) and my bike didn't show anything like those figures.

mi1lertm
10-15-2008, 12:52 PM
True, however that looks nice, would have liked to seen the HP and torq on same graph to see if it crossed at 5252. Dale has seen close to those numbers with stage two and his CAT-less header W/slip on. Nevertheless, the torq on ol-boys bike at 97 is monster. Here is a graph of stock vs stage 2 (air box only) with new exhaust header. I believe that he still has the secondary butterflys in buy the drop @ 7K. Not sure if he has dyno'ed it with out the butterflys removed. Here is another pix of his new airbox mod, I had my friend mill it for me. In reading the post with the dyno chart, he still has the secondary valves in. I will be interesting to see what he can get with them out

Cheers,


Mark

PhilS
10-15-2008, 06:08 PM
Dyno charts and numbers are great to look at chat about when comparing this to that, but can someone (or a bunch of you) chime in on exactly what the extra HP and extra torque really get you in real life?

Bone stock it dyno's on Dale's machine at 105HP/85FtLBS
W/Pipe and TFI, etc it dyno's at 115HP/92FtLBS

The 10 HP is at 7K RPM mainly and the 7 Ft LBS torque is consistant from 4500 RPM to 6K RPM.

My bike does not surge, runs smooth at idle and through the parking lot speeds, and pulls great to 8K.

What will I notice realistically for sport street riding by investing in the $270 for the TFI/O2 - (other than a loss of a few MPG)? I already run a K&N filter because I like them and already have the comp2 slip on.

Thoughts?

mi1lertm
10-15-2008, 07:27 PM
What I have noticed is a faster spooling motor. I have friends who have VFR's with all possible mod's, i.e. PCIII, open exhaust, down one tooth/up three on sprockets. When my bike was stock we were dead even in a straight line. I then added my Yosh and cut a small 1" hole in airbox, I was able to pull a little down low but from 90-135mph we were deadlocked. Once I got the full stage one from Dale it was no longer a contest. I have them up/down/sideways any time, any roll on, done. Now, the VFR does handle better then my bike (still looking at race tech setup, possible Ohilns SU-715) and I added a fork brace (helped but bike does not flick like a VFR). However, I look at the Bandit as a GS bike and the VFR as a S bike (if you SKI you know what I mean). Nevertheless, to answer your question, I beleive that a PCIII or a TFI will spool you engine faster. What Dale or your tune guy should show is HP/Time and not HP/RPM. I was reading about the 08 Busa and their HP numbers are not that far from each other, but spool time was a huge difference. If/when you add more air into your system you need to add fuel as well. Both products will do that. Since Colorado is a non-smog state (yippie) I am still legal with these mods. Noise is a different issue but my Yosh has a DB killer that comes with it. I aggree that numbers are only numbers but your PCIII numbers look nice for what you have done. I will ask Dale to run his stock vs Mod as HP/time (s) and not over RPM to see if he can quantify what these numbers will do for you. Hope this helps.

Cheers,

Mark

PhilS
10-15-2008, 08:01 PM
........Nevertheless, to answer your question, I beleive that a PCIII or a TFI will spool you engine faster........

Bottom line, it spools up faster throughout the range with some better top end speed. Clearly with more fuel in the mix, your mileage went down. Not that mileage is a big issue, but how significant was the drop, if any?

mi1lertm
10-15-2008, 10:46 PM
No Mod's I was near 50mpg, W/hole in air box and yosh about 43mpg, with TFI + big hole and yosh 47MPG. Dales TFI settings are a little leaner from 3.5-4.5K RPM. I have seen > 50 MPH when the ambent temp > 95F but now with sub 60F weather near 42-43MPG. Blame the air density box on the FI for that one.

Cheers,

Mark

mi1lertm
10-16-2008, 11:57 PM
Noticed that Red Dog was using a GI Tre, looked at this thing and it seems real. When you advance the timing you do gain more power and torq. NGK's web site states that a 5 deg advance will increase your operating temp up to 100C. Therefore, I am wondering if this could impact durability in the long haul. Also might want to switch to the 8 (7 is std) plug to drop your running temp as well. However, 127hp and 98lbs of torq is nice, good gain with PCIII slip on and NSTD air cleaner with stock header and secondary butterfly's in.

Cheers,

Mark

sproggy
10-17-2008, 04:19 AM
Noticed that Red Dog was using a GI Tre, looked at this thing and it seems real.

The GIPro aTRE is a good gear indicator. But as a TRE it makes absolutely no difference to the Bandit - not on the road and not on the dyno. I bought mine mainly for the gear indicator, otherwise I'd have sent it back.

I can only assume that there's no ignition retardation in the lower gears on the Bandit and therefore nothing to 'eliminate'.

mi1lertm
10-17-2008, 10:00 PM
I heard that you can remap 4th,5th & 6th. I have no experience with this device, only what I have read. Are you saying that advancing the timing in these gears has no efect? Again, I did/do not have the itch to try this device do to the possible increase of operating temp in the combustion chamber.

Mark

sproggy
10-18-2008, 04:50 AM
I heard that you can remap 4th,5th & 6th. I have no experience with this device, only what I have read. Are you saying that advancing the timing in these gears has no efect?

The TRE can fool the ECU into thinking that the bike is in 4th, 5th or 6th gear (you can choose which) all the time - it sits between the stock gear position sensor and the ECU. So it has the potential to affect the timing in the lower gears although it doesn't specifically advance the ignition timing - it's intended to remove any retardation or limitation that might exist on a stock bike relative to the timing in higher gears. For example the ZZR1400 has (or had - I think Kawasaki might have removed it now) a different mapping in the lower gears to hold back the performance a bit and using a TRE could get around that. At the other end of the scale the Hayabusa has a speed limiter in 6th, and using a TRE to fool the ECU into thinking the bike's in 5th gear will bypass the speed limiter (nothing to do with timing at all). On some bikes the ignition mapping is different in one or more of the lower gears simply to pass emissions tests at specific rpms.

But what the TRE can't do is advance the ignition timing beyond what the manufacturer intended, so there is absolutely no danger of overheating the engine or doing any other damage by using one. At the very most it will give a bike better response in the lower gears and/or a higher top speed. However on the Bandit there's no top speed limiter and my experience has shown that there isn't a restriction in the lower gears (for performance or emissions reasons) either.

NB - My experiences are with a European-spec bike which uses a different fuel mapping and ECU and has to pass different emissions tests to US-spec bikes. It is possible that US-spec bikes have ignition retardation in one or more of the lower gears (for emissions reasons) that Euro-spec bikes don't, in which case a TRE might have an effect. The only way to find out is to try one - if the TRE doesn't have any effect at least you've still got a good gear position indicator.

mi1lertm
10-18-2008, 05:09 AM
I see holeshot is adding $20 over the suggested retail and for that $20 he will share with you what map to use, 4th - 6th. I misunderstood about how it works. It can only stop the retard that your bike might want to do in the lower gears to keep the front tire down or pass smog test's. Thanks for the info. BTW do you have any smog restrictions in the UK? As of this year, Colorado has gone smog free. However, the only down fall is that all car's/bikes sold in the US are ALL setup for California smog restrictions, Bummer.

Cheers,

Mark

sproggy
10-18-2008, 08:15 AM
I see holeshot is adding $20 over the suggested retail and for that $20 he will share with you what map to use, 4th - 6th.

The manufacturer tells you what map to use. Holeshot provide the TRE with a mounting bracket of their own design - purchased elsewhere you don't get a bracket.

BTW do you have any smog restrictions in the UK?

There are Europe-wide emissions regulations but these apply only to new vehicles. Bikes don't get emissions tested at their MoT (annual roadworthiness) test. Cars do. I suspect that our tests aren't as stringent as the Califonian ones. Switzerland gets Californian-spec vehicles from many manufacturers because they're hotter than EU countries on emissions.

MtnTrax
10-18-2008, 08:59 AM
I've found the same thing in the US with the GiPro- 4/5/6 seems to make no discernible difference. Finally received my back ordered PC3 and put it on. Very noticeable change in running performance. With a BMC filter, pair plug and Yosh muffler and already had a O2 bypass on it seems to run smoother and noticeably quicker. Motor also sounds happier with no more tinny lean tone to it. I'm using a EU map which may be a little rich in some areas and next spring plan on getting it dyno tuned. Right now is probably the last of the nice days before winter so it'll be time to put her away shortly and jump on the sled instead. I'm sure gonna miss my bandit for the next 5 months... sniff,sniff. Just have to ride the forums and mags instead I guess.

Ga-Bandit
10-19-2008, 07:31 AM
Ya'll do know of the Maximum Suzuki site right with a "Dale Walker - Holeshot" section? I've only glanced through this thread but didn't see anything....
http://www.maximum-suzuki.com/forums/index.php?board=39.0

ReDdOg
10-20-2008, 02:18 AM
Agreed.. The GiPro is a good gear indicator. The aTRE part is all smoke and mirrors. Turn it off and I noticed bugger all difference.

As for the hole in the airbox I did similar to Dale's mod, just a touch bigger to take up the top section of the airbox. I toyed with removing the lot and replacing it with a piece of stainless mesh.

I'm running a BMC filter and secondaries are still there. If i can be bothered next time I have the tank off I might remove them or see if they can be wired open.

Dyno's are all different, so don't get to caught up in the numbers. The dyno I used I would expect to be a bit on the happy side. Bike goes great regardless so no problem here.

Next mod will be suspension, I am now pushing the bike a bit harder than what it was intended to do.

sproggy
10-20-2008, 05:07 AM
I'm running a BMC filter and secondaries are still there. If i can be bothered next time I have the tank off I might remove them or see if they can be wired open.

You can't wire the secondaries open - when you switch the ignition on the ECU cycles the secondaries open/closed. If it can't do this it'll register a fault. You just have to remove the butterflies and leave the shaft free to do its own thing.

mi1lertm
10-30-2008, 09:00 AM
You can't wire the secondaries open - when you switch the ignition on the ECU cycles the secondaries open/closed. If it can't do this it'll register a fault. You just have to remove the butterflies and leave the shaft free to do its own thing.

Did you notice any loss of torq without the butterflys, I seem to notice that at around 4200-4700 RPM's the bike is a bit spongy on the roll on. I do notice the upper end of the motor over 6K RPM's is much better but I am some what surprised around freeway rollon's. It is much smother and as lost all of it's surging but it looks like I lost a few MPG's as well. Dale has the TFI bumped up quite a bit from the stage 1 settings and now I am down 2 bar's with only 55 miles on it. Temp is 45F or below so that is not helping as well but I am surprised on fuel usage so far. I know you use the PCIII and was wondering if you have any of these issues as well?

Cheers,

Mark

sproggy
10-30-2008, 10:04 AM
Did you notice any loss of torq without the butterflys, I seem to notice that at around 4200-4700 RPM's the bike is a bit spongy on the roll on. I do notice the upper end of the motor over 6K RPM's is much better but I am some what surprised around freeway rollon's. It is much smother and as lost all of it's surging but it looks like I lost a few MPG's as well. Dale has the TFI bumped up quite a bit from the stage 1 settings and now I am down 2 bar's with only 55 miles on it. Temp is 45F or below so that is not helping as well but I am surprised on fuel usage so far. I know you use the PCIII and was wondering if you have any of these issues as well?

It's hard to judge accurately because the vast improvement in throttle response makes the bike feel more torquey even when it isn't, simply because snapping the throttle open throws the bike down the road instantly rather than it suffering the slower response that the ECU clearly prefers and enforces with the secondaries. This is helped, of course, by the bike being mapped on a dyno. But there's certainly nothing that you'd describe as 'spongy' at any point in the rev range - that sounds like a setup issue to me rather than a characteristic of a 1250 without secondaries.

Regarding torque, though, I've got race headers fitted which do limit the potential for torque (which isn't significantly higher than Suzuki claim for a stock bike) because of their larger diameter and lack of back-pressure but there are no dips in the delivery either on the dyno graph or on the road. And at higher revs, as you've found, it flies. Roll-ons in the 70-90mph range are instant (in 6th) - no complaints there.

Fuel consumption is, I believe, slightly higher than before removing the secondaries and fitting the headers (i.e. with an end can, K&N, drilled airbox, blocked PAIR and PC111). I say 'I believe' because I fitted a speedo healer at the same time so the mileage readings changed but filling up after 3 days of commuting (same route, same traffic every day - 129 GPS miles, not Suzuki ones) it took about half a litre more than before. But this is still better than when the bike was completely stock and I'm quite happy to sacrifice a bit of fuel for the improved running. It's still economical for what it is and how I ride it.

When I eventually get back on the bike I'm going to take it back to the dyno with a different mid-pipe and can fitted because the Yoshi one I had for the first dyno run is, I suspect, somewhat restrictive as a result of having the baffle in the mid-pipe instead of in the can itself. And it's welded in so I can't remove it - the sound is barely any louder than stock. I'm expecting no more torque with the other (Quill) can, but probably more power. Not that I need it, but, you know..........:rider: Oh, and the sound from the Quill can is fantastic :trust:

mi1lertm
10-30-2008, 10:37 AM
Good to hear, I might have used the wrong term 'spongy' I was used to a brisk roll on while passing cars at about 83-85 mph, now I guess that the new found smoothness will take some getting used to. I guess that what I had before is what some people are calling 'surging' and that is most noticably gone. Will be interesting when I drain this tank and see where I'm at on MPG's. Thanks for the feedback.

Cheers,

Mark

red757
11-01-2008, 11:15 PM
I've found the same thing in the US with the GiPro- 4/5/6 seems to make no discernible difference. Finally received my back ordered PC3 and put it on. Very noticeable change in running performance. With a BMC filter, pair plug and Yosh muffler and already had a O2 bypass on it seems to run smoother and noticeably quicker. Motor also sounds happier with no more tinny lean tone to it. I'm using a EU map which may be a little rich in some areas and next spring plan on getting it dyno tuned. Right now is probably the last of the nice days before winter so it'll be time to put her away shortly and jump on the sled instead. I'm sure gonna miss my bandit for the next 5 months... sniff,sniff. Just have to ride the forums and mags instead I guess.

In case you didnt know there is a new US map for those of us that can't make it to a dyno just yet. The US map is set for O2 installed so I put it back in and loaded the new map. Feels a bit stronger better response on the butt dyno and my yoshi isnt sooted after cleaning it.

I called Dynojet because I didnt know if the US map was suppose to use the o2 eliminator or not and they said the US map is set for o2 installed. I was curious because i noticed the map was set much leaner in the lower throttle position and low rpms which would be in closed loop mode.

Best to get it Dyno'd for sure but I won't be able to do that for another month or so.

sproggy
11-02-2008, 04:32 AM
I was curious because i noticed the map was set much leaner in the lower throttle position and low rpms which would be in closed loop mode.

The map doesn't get used when the injection's in closed-loop mode so the settings are irrelevant - I guess Dynojet didn't bother doing anything with them.

It seems pretty weird to me that they'd produce a map specifically for use with the O2 sensor installed, though. Why not do the job properly with a bypass? It wouldn't make any difference to people without one.

MtnTrax
11-02-2008, 10:52 AM
The map doesn't get used when the injection's in closed-loop mode so the settings are irrelevant - I guess Dynojet didn't bother doing anything with them.

It seems pretty weird to me that they'd produce a map specifically for use with the O2 sensor installed, though. Why not do the job properly with a bypass? It wouldn't make any difference to people without one.

And that's the very reason I loaded in the EU map instead. Maybe they were scared of our EPA's wrath? After cruising at around 4k and shutting it off I hear a lot of ticking from the exhaust like the cat is burning off excess fuel. Didn't notice that before the PC3 was on. Been using premium grade fuel (relatively cheap now!) to burn cooler and better match to the EU fuel quality. I guess a full system, HS stage 2 or a catectomy would cure that. Like I said though a full dyno tune next spring.... in SAE mode with 5 smoothing and realistic real world numbers.

red757
11-02-2008, 07:56 PM
now i understand.

red757
12-10-2008, 04:21 PM
In my ever ending quest to learn more about fuel management I have another question that may or may not have been answered already but ADD prevents me from sifting through and finding it, so here goes.

If I am say just cruising at a steady 2500RPM or even 5000RPM I am in closed loop mode correct?

If I whack the throttle open when cruising at any steady RPM it will go into open loop mode correct?

What determines whether it will be in open or closed loop mode is my basic question.

which also brings up a question to the statement,,"The map doesn't get used when the injection's in closed-loop mode so the settings are irrelevant".

If the open/closed loop mode is irrelevant to a specific rpm range and is a function of say throttle position then the settings would be relevant if I whack the throttle open in a low rpm where it would switch to using the PC3 fuel settings. Wouldnt that in turn be the same as eliminating the o2 in open loop mode? Maybe I'm just confusing myself here and will probably continue to until I can get to a dyno and get a full on proper tune.

rich765
12-10-2008, 05:13 PM
Is the loud ticking after turning off the motor common on all 2008 Bandits?

mi1lertm
12-10-2008, 05:33 PM
First of all the term 'map' might be confusing. Your ECM uses different tables to look up fuel curves based on constantly updated information from a bunch of sensors. Therefore, when you are cruzing at a steady RPM you motor will try and go closed loop, I believe that you must be in 6th for this to happen. (why some of us got the FI light at 4.5K RPMs in the summer). When you have the O2 sensor bypassed you will stay in open loop mode due to a constant voltage return from your bypass.

http://fordfuelinjection.com/?p=4

Here is a basic fuel map Ford used (pretty much the same for bikes for this purpose)

These tables are reset using a PCIII or any other 'remapping' device. You have a O2 sensor, TPS, AMF sensor, oil, coolant temp sensor, manafold pressure, ect, that imput data to your ECM. Based on that data and you RPM the ECM will try and keep your A/F raito near 14:7 for EPA reasons. However, when you drop the hammer, your bike will add fuel as it sees fit to keep you and the EPA happy. With the Bandit, there are secondary valves that the ECM uses to limit the air into your motor, (mine are gone).

A PCIII will change the lookup tables to add more fuel under different loads, a TFI will short out the injectors to keep them open longer.

I think that you bike will only go closed loop in 6th at a steady rpm however I could be wrong.

you asked

"If the open/closed loop mode is irrelevant to a specific rpm range and is a function of say throttle position then the settings would be relevant if I whack the throttle open in a low rpm where it would switch to using the PC3 fuel settings. Wouldnt that in turn be the same as eliminating the o2 in open loop mode? Maybe I'm just confusing myself here and will probably continue to until I can get to a dyno and get a full on proper tune."

Using the stock fuel map in open loop is different then using a PCIII map, once you have the PCIII installed your fuel tables will be different then the stock ones through out the entire RPM range. Where as if you use the TFI your map will be the same but the injectors will stay open longer through the entire RPM range. I'm not sure if just bypassing the O2 sensor will change anything on a stock bike or not.

Mark

Johnnycheese
12-10-2008, 08:21 PM
First of all the term 'map' might be confusing. Your ECM uses different tables to look up fuel curves based on constantly updated information from a bunch of sensors. Therefore, when you are cruzing at a steady RPM you motor will try and go closed loop, I believe that you must be in 6th for this to happen. (why some of us got the FI light at 4.5K RPMs in the summer). When you have the O2 sensor bypassed you will stay in open loop mode due to a constant voltage return from your bypass.

http://fordfuelinjection.com/?p=4

Here is a basic fuel map Ford used (pretty much the same for bikes for this purpose)

These tables are reset using a PCIII or any other 'remapping' device. You have a O2 sensor, TPS, AMF sensor, oil, coolant temp sensor, manafold pressure, ect, that imput data to your ECM. Based on that data and you RPM the ECM will try and keep your A/F raito near 14:7 for EPA reasons. However, when you drop the hammer, your bike will add fuel as it sees fit to keep you and the EPA happy. With the Bandit, there are secondary valves that the ECM uses to limit the air into your motor, (mine are gone).

A PCIII will change the lookup tables to add more fuel under different loads, a TFI will short out the injectors to keep them open longer.

I think that you bike will only go closed loop in 6th at a steady rpm however I could be wrong.

you asked

"If the open/closed loop mode is irrelevant to a specific rpm range and is a function of say throttle position then the settings would be relevant if I whack the throttle open in a low rpm where it would switch to using the PC3 fuel settings. Wouldnt that in turn be the same as eliminating the o2 in open loop mode? Maybe I'm just confusing myself here and will probably continue to until I can get to a dyno and get a full on proper tune."

Using the stock fuel map in open loop is different then using a PCIII map, once you have the PCIII installed your fuel tables will be different then the stock ones through out the entire RPM range. Where as if you use the TFI your map will be the same but the injectors will stay open longer through the entire RPM range. I'm not sure if just bypassing the O2 sensor will change anything on a stock bike or not.

Mark

mark you are not quite correct.
all the pc3 does it changes the injector pluse time (more or less) after the ecu.
the ecu does what ever changes needs to be done.
the TFI/Cobra/V&H pack or whatever name it is using this year does is change the injector pulse time ( more only)
IF I recall correctly the o2 is out of the picture after 3750 rpms

sproggy
12-11-2008, 06:21 AM
On most bikes (and I'm sure the Bandit is no different) whether you're in closed or open loop mode depends upon throttle position and revs. What the critical figures are is anyone's guess and it's not a linear relationship, but generally at small throttle openings and lower revs the system will run in closed loop. At high throttle openings and/or higher revs the system will run in open loop.

It would be very unusual for this behaviour to be affected by what gear you're in (supported by the fact that fitting a TRE makes little or no difference to how the bike runs). I think it's also unlikely that the system would always run in open loop above 3,750 - a light throttle (i.e. just cruising at a steady speed) at 4000 or so would have it running closed loop for improved emissions and economy. But these are just guesses, really, based on experience of other injected bikes.

Of course for anyone with an O2 bypass all of this is academic because your system will be running in open loop mode all the time.

MtnTrax
12-11-2008, 08:44 AM
Is the loud ticking after turning off the motor common on all 2008 Bandits?

It was on mine after fitting a PC3 and loading a EU map for aftermarket muffler, O2 bypass and air filter change. I compared that map to a similar US map sans O2 bypass and there were both differences and some similarities. Thought about taking the differences and splitting the numbers for a compromise map but said the heck with it and wait for a dyno tune next spring. I think the much more noticable ticking came from the fact of excess fuel burning in the cat.

mi1lertm
12-11-2008, 09:58 AM
mark you are not quite correct.
all the pc3 does it changes the injector pluse time (more or less) after the ecu.
the ecu does what ever changes needs to be done.
the TFI/Cobra/V&H pack or whatever name it is using this year does is change the injector pulse time ( more only)
IF I recall correctly the o2 is out of the picture after 3750 rpms

I am now confused, If I am/was in open loop mode over 3.75K rpms why did I/we have so many issues with the O2 bypass? My bike wanted to go closed loop @ ~4.2-4.7K rpms. When I was sport riding > 5K rpms had no FI light, under 4K no light. When steady cruze @ ~83 mph FI light always came on. Looking at my code C44, it stated that O2 sensor was seeing > 1V. Never happend in 5th only 6th and only at steady rpm. I still do not know what root cause was/is (yes Sprogy I know what we have talked about) but I think it could be another issue possiby.

Mark

sproggy
12-11-2008, 11:27 AM
Maybe at the engine speed and throttle position that corresponds to where the O2 bypass fails, the system is flipping constantly backwards and forwards between closed and open loop and that's what causes the failure?

Regarding it happening only in 6th I'd guess that's because you'd cruise at a steady 80ish in 6th but you wouldn't maintain a similar constant engine speed in 5th? You'd always change up to 6th for a constant cruise at 55-60mph upwards, wouldn't you? That's what I do, because the Bandit has more than enough torque to cope with that.

mi1lertm
12-11-2008, 12:09 PM
I have tried to cause a faliure in 5th by cruzing at ~4.5K rpms and can not get the light. Dobeck had me try that in the summer. Also reconnected the stock O2 and could not get the light as well. I was wondering if any TRE guys could set it for 5th gear and (in 6th) and get the light but I did not get any takers. Oh well, I will put this on hold for next summer when it heats up again. Riding home this morning it was a balmy 23F, I was creeping down the freeway at ~70mph due to moisture on the road.

Mark

red757
12-11-2008, 01:13 PM
looking around I found a little more info about how the basis of a closed loop open loop system works. The chart was for a ducati 919 but the theory is the same the figures will be different.

from 1k-5k rpm up to 12 throttle degrees at operating temperature the system is in closed loop. from 5100rpm up, any throttle degree it is open loop. from any rpm, 13 throttle degrees up it is in open loop.

Really since i am not a racer but do like optimum performance/fuel economy I have become curious about utilizing the o2 sensor with the PC3 to provide max power when wanting it and max fuel economy when wanting it.

it almost seems that using the pc3 with o2 sensor is like having an economy and power map together. closed loop mode for fuel economy and open loop for power. Its really about knowing where the switch from closed loop to open loop takes place. I'm still learning about all this fuel management stuff so I could be wrong with the economy/power thing but it's fun looking into stuff like this.

sproggy
12-11-2008, 02:40 PM
it almost seems that using the pc3 with o2 sensor is like having an economy and power map together. closed loop mode for fuel economy and open loop for power. Its really about knowing where the switch from closed loop to open loop takes place. I'm still learning about all this fuel management stuff so I could be wrong with the economy/power thing but it's fun looking into stuff like this.

In theory you're right, but many Bandit owners have fitted a PC111 or TFI with an O2 bypass to get around the surging that's a feature of the lean running imposed by running in closed-loop mode. Not just to get more power. So in practice what you'd probably end up with is a bike that surges just as much as stock (which varies from bike to bike) but uses more fuel at higher revs :-(

You might well also get a 'step' in power delivery where it switches from closed-loop (lean) to open-loop (richer) - the standard map would be set up to prevent this but a 'full power' PC111 map would be done irrespective of where the change from closed to open loop took place, potentially making for a noticeable step. If you had the PC111 mapped with the O2 sensor in circuit the dyno operator might be able to reduce the step but you'd sacrifice mid-range power/torque by holding the mixture leaner than would be ideal. It's a trade-off - only you can decide whether it's an acceptable one.

If you're going the PC111 route anyway there's no harm in getting the bike mapped with the O2 bypass fitted and then, afterwards, trying the bike with the O2 sensor back in - this will give you what you're talking about and then you'll be in a position to tell us whether it's worth trying :clap: This is something I would try myself but I didn't transfer the O2 sensor to my Arrow headers so I have no option but to run with the bypass.

One thing, though. I may be completely wrong on this so someone please correct me if that's the case, but running a richer mixture in open loop could coat the O2 sensor in carbon, making it less effective when it's needed (in closed-loop) and making the bike run worse in those conditions. Or am I talking out of my.........?

MtnTrax
12-13-2008, 09:54 AM
I see that Dynojet has a new product out called the Power Commander 5. It does some new stuff that would be really slick to have like 2 position map switching and gear position input with individual cylinder mapping. Also with an O2 module and Autotune controller it can tune on the fly. Think the PC3 was capable of that feature as well. So far it seems to be available for just '09 GSXR models, Busas and 650 Stroms. You'd think it would expand to cover more models and years as maps get developed. A quick look found them selling for as low as $273 which is right in the ballpark of a PC3. I just hate it when I buy something and then the new and improved super yazoo version comes out shortly after. :shrug:
PC5 (http://www.powercommander.com/powercommander_hd/powercommander_v_information.aspx)
store link (http://www.motorcycle-superstore.com/1/5/90/18731/DPITEM/Street-Bike-Fuel-Injection-Mapping-Dynojet-Power-Commander-V.aspx?SiteID=CSE_GBase_090&WT.mc_ID=80003&zmam=88421133&zmas=1&zmac=2&zmap=18731)

sproggy
12-13-2008, 11:16 AM
From what I can see it's available only for 2009 model Harleys. :-? And cylinder-specific maps are particularly relevant to inline, air-cooled V-twins.

Assuming it will be available for non-Harleys it still states "PCVĺs will only be available for 2009 model year motorcycles". I wonder why?

IMO the Bandit has no need to cylinder-specific maps, gear-specific maps or map switching, but I guess you don't have to use those features. For me the main benefit seems to be that it's half the size of a PC111.

MtnTrax
12-13-2008, 12:13 PM
Nope, many more bikes than just HD. Check the store link in my post and select make and model. Here's another store listing here (http://www.kneedraggers.com/list/newproducts/manu/Dynojet). The PC website leads on that it's for just HD but on the top says for select 2009 bikes. Harleys do get additional features beyond the standard ones. Mapping on the fly would be sweet for upgrades, changes or even weather and altitude factors. Beats getting a dynotune and then say adding headers and paying again for it. Map switching for performance mode or fuel economy/ or with or without O2 bypass if the bypass fails could be handy! I carry a spare bypass with me though... Yes, half the size would double the storage space too. :lol2: Can't understand the 2009 thing either. If the bikes aren't even available now why bring out a product line and leave out all the existing models?? Makes no sense...

achesley
12-16-2008, 06:43 AM
Maybe they were scared of our EPA's wrath?

They got burnt not long ago on their PC111 USBs. Not complying to EPA. Had to market it as OFFROAD and produce a new set of maps for EPA. Pretty sure the fine was hefty. I had bought one for my DL1000 right before they got tagged.

Fittysom'n
03-09-2009, 01:35 PM
The Bandit 1250 has been around for a couple years now, and y'all have been doing yer mod's, coming to conclusions. So I can't help but wonder if anybody has looked back and since concluded:

"WOW, it was well worth it!"
- or -
"I wish I woulda used that money for my suspension instead..."

I've finally gone & done it, I've ordered an after-market muffler (!!!). I shouldn't have, but I jus' hadda....
So let me cut to the chase:

1) Will the bike be running dangerously lean with JUST a free flowing muffler (no ECU or intake mods)? I imagine I should expect no more than an increase of maybe 2hp and a ft/lb. of torque?

2) Can I benefit from Dale's ECU if I choose NOT to butcher my air box and add the K&N air filter?

3) I'm not crazy about my gas mileage with the UNmodified 1250, and when/if I do the full Stage 1 (stage 2 is outa the question), how significant will the difference be in my fuel consumption?

My thinking is along the lines of a need for that sexy sound of an after-market can, while at the same time being apprehensive to make a mod to my bike's air box that can not be reversed.

treybrad
03-09-2009, 04:30 PM
1) Will the bike be running dangerously lean with JUST a free flowing muffler (no ECU or intake mods)? I imagine I should expect no more than an increase of maybe 2hp and a ft/lb. of torque?

I really don't think so. Considering all the things rworm has done to his w/o any kind of fuel enrichment, I'd say you'll be more than OK.

2) Can I benefit from Dale's ECU if I choose NOT to butcher my air box and add the K&N air filter?

You probably would, but I don't think it'd be worth the money. It'll run fine/safe without it, unless you have some kind of other problem (like surging), I'd leave it as is with just the slip-on. You will need need to plug the PAIR system to eliminate the decel popping.

3) I'm not crazy about my gas mileage with the UNmodified 1250, and when/if I do the full Stage 1 (stage 2 is outa the question), how significant will the difference be in my fuel consumption?

I lost a few MPG with the full Stage 1, maybe 1-2 on the hwy and 2-3 commuting. If you add the TFI box, your fuel consumption will go up... if you just add the slip-on, I doubt you'd be able to see a change.

trey

mi1lertm
03-09-2009, 08:12 PM
When I added my slipon I also drilled a 1" hole on top of my air box. It dropped my MPG's quite a bit, it was not until I added the TFI that I got my MPG's back. I have seen over 200 miles on full stage II with header already. Last summer I was getting over 50 mpg's on stage I while sporting around over 7K rpm's I am not sure how it is at sea level but up here we are lean due to the think air. I am glad I added the TFI and pulled the secondarys (might look at Gadget's ECU hack now) but with the header and my setup the bike is a real hoot to ride.

Mark

sproggy
03-10-2009, 06:00 AM
I have seen over 200 miles on full stage II with header already. Last summer I was getting over 50 mpg's on stage I while sporting around over 7K rpm's

Are your figures based on standard Suzuki odo/trip readings or have you adjusted them with a speedohealer?

Fittysom'n
03-10-2009, 11:16 AM
The best gas mileage I've seen on the Bandit was at higher elevations, speeding, on some smooth curves and winding two lane roads, through the mountain passes.... and that may have been as much as 44 mpg. But when setting out out on local 300 mile rides, freeway drones at legal speeds, or spirited romps through the foothills, I'll normally get 38 to 40 mpg. I'll frequently push it to the point of BOTH 'low-fuel' icons blinking, filling up at 185 to 198 miles.

I thought there was a very brief period when I was pleasantly surprised to see my computations returning me 48 mpg. I think that happened no more than three tanks during the last 8,000 miles.

It's possible my totally stock 1250 needs some attention and that I may not be sensitive to the throttle bodies being out of synch'. I've written an email to somebody recommended by Dale/Holeshot for a quote to do a full Stage II for me. As reluctant as I am to have the secondaries removed, that additional power after 7,000 rpm (as per Dale's Dyno print outs) would give the bike power where I feel it desperately needs it. If in addition to the added 'power' at the upper rpm's, I can get the same (or better) fuel mileage, I'm sure the RIDE would be more gratifying.....

sproggy
03-10-2009, 11:38 AM
As reluctant as I am to have the secondaries removed, that additional power after 7,000 rpm (as per Dale's Dyno print outs) would give the bike power where I feel it desperately needs it.

I fully expect to be disagreed with when I say this, but I don't believe that removing the secondaries will give you more power above 7k. Other aspects of the Holeshot Stage 2 (exhaust, opened up airbox, fuelling adjustments) certainly will but not the secondaries themselves. What removing the secondaries gives you is much better throttle reponse which makes the bike feel stronger throughout the rev range.

In other words, if you don't want to remove them, don't! The only part of the Stage 2 that you might not want to tackle yourself is the secondaries - the rest is easy. I'd suggest buying the parts, fitting them and seeing how the bike rides. Only then consider paying someone to remove the secondaries if you feel it's necessary. What do you lose by doing that?

Fittysom'n
03-10-2009, 12:03 PM
You know.... I'm stupid enough to buy into the MOST RECENT thing I've read.... almost always have been; until something new & different comes along that catches my attention. I also tend to believe more in what I WANT TO BELIEVE. Case in point:
"...I don't believe that removing the secondaries will give you more power above 7k..."
Whew! I've just been given permission to NOT remove my secondaries! Done, I ain't gonna do it then.....

I have another question though, I'm a bit perplexed about what/where on the air box needs to be cut out. Cutting something out is not reversable, and I would like to buy another of what I will be mod'ing on ebay or somewhere. If ebay has a complete air box for sale, is that I am to look for? I'm a bit confused because there was mention made of the "back" part or something??? Got pics, anybody got an unmodified air box lid, can I get some help here understanding what it is I would be butchering and where I could buy another to replace in the event I have to replace it????

Sure, I'll do the work myself. But I don't have the tools/gadgets for synching the bodies; thought I'd get it done by a pro with the tools and know-how. But I'm not afraid to get in there and tackle the simple stuff.....

streak07
03-10-2009, 12:16 PM
I think from the standpoint of reducing turbulence and an air restriction in the intake path it may get you a very marginal gain. I have no interest in trying it though because the bike has plenty of power stock for me and the wife. And she seems to like the super quiet muffler so that means I can spend more mod money on my own bike. A win-win.

Fittysom'n
03-10-2009, 01:31 PM
I am soooo looking forward to making some noise out there!

I'm not talking obnoxious noise, just the music of a 4-2-1 into a free flowing can. And it's on the way.... a MIVV X-Cone from Italy. With the baffle in place, it conforms to the noise limits set in Europe; without the baffle (easily removed) it's loud.... but with our CAT' obstructing some of the noise sans baffle, 'music' to the enthusisast's ear!

Fittysom'n
03-10-2009, 01:33 PM
Whoops, how'ed I do this?
--------------------------------------

I am soooo looking forward to making some noise out there!

I'm not talking obnoxious noise, just the music of a 4-2-1 into a free flowing can. And it's on the way.... a MIVV X-Cone from Italy. With the baffle in place, it conforms to the noise limits set in Europe; without the baffle (easily removed) it's loud.... but with our CAT' obstructing some of the noise sans baffle, 'music' to the enthusisast's ear!

http://www.pjsparts.com/catalog/popup_image.php?pID=1294&osCsid=5c44a32a091f1a9e7eb1805e29d5f12f

sproggy
03-10-2009, 02:48 PM
I have another question though, I'm a bit perplexed about what/where on the air box needs to be cut out. Cutting something out is not reversable, and I would like to buy another of what I will be mod'ing on ebay or somewhere. If ebay has a complete air box for sale, is that I am to look for? I'm a bit confused because there was mention made of the "back" part or something???

Although it's commonly referred to as "the airbox mod" the box itself isn't modified - only the lid. If you lift up your seat you will see the lid of the airbox held on with 4 large, silver screws. 2 screws are visible (the top/forward ones) and two are less easy to see (the bottom/rear ones). Stage 1 involves removing the rubber 'snorkel' and drilling a large hole in the lid - see the Stage 1 instructions on the Holeshot website for pictures. Stage 2 involves removing the entire lid other than the 'frame' around the outside that actually clamps the filter element in place - see the last step in the Stage 2 instructions on the website.

I looked for a spare lid on eBay before I modified mine but was lucky enough to find a 'pre-modified' one for sale. So I've kept my original one in case I want to put everything back to stock. My guess is that a new lid from Suzuki wouldn't be stupidly expensive anyway.

treybrad
03-10-2009, 03:27 PM
My guess is that a new lid from Suzuki wouldn't be stupidly expensive anyway.

It's pretty pricey... because they won't sell you just the lid, only the whole airbox.

Here's links to pictures from Holeshot on the Stage 1 and 2 how-to's:

http://holeshot.com/Bandit_1250/1250tfi_installation.html

http://holeshot.com/Bandit_1250/1250tfi_install_st2.html

You can see the different stages of airbox destruction there...

trey

Terizius
03-11-2009, 03:01 PM
In regards to the secondaries not doing anything to help with power, I must digress. I did the stage 2 mod in phases as I didnt have the correct tip screwdrivers to get the secondaries out the first go around. Cutting off the top of the airbox did make some difference, though not too much. The secondaries removed truly did make a huge difference from 5k and above. The reason (from what i've been following over on maximum suzuki) is that that the secondaries progressively close once you get into the higher rpms, same as in the lower rpms. The reason is theorized to be to limit the top end power. What removing the secondaries does is allow them to be fully open, all of the time, vs up to 30% closed at the higher rpms. More air flow equates to more power (with other things factored in of course). What negative effects to removing the secondaries? Apparently, and others may be able to verify, restricting/condensing the air flow at the lower rpms helps to increase torque. That is why some people are reporting a slightly less feel of torque when the secondaries are removed. Most or all that have noted that slight difference have said that the difference in the top end is well worth it. I personally didnt notice any difference in take off speed or torque. Another negative is just that they can be finicky to remove. Unless you use the correct screwdrivers (JIS if i remember correctly, available in hobby stores or online), you run the risk of stripping the screws and being forced to drill it out, which I had to do to the one that I tried before I got the other screwdrivers. Once I got the correct ones though, some were tight, but I didnt have any problems and didnt have to use heat or anything. An alternative, and a pretty good one once they get it figured out, is to program the stock ECU to open or close the secondaries at settings that the user provides. By doing so, you can keep them in, keep them closed more at low rpms, but fully open at higher rpms. I'm still following that discussion and if they get to the point were they've figured it all out, I may put mine back in and go the ECU route. If you are on the fence about it, I'd say go for it if you are comfortable doing so, otherwise, dont worry about it. The bandit is a great bike regardless and doesnt "need" anymore power

Fittysom'n
03-11-2009, 04:28 PM
I was running around in the car a moment ago and got to wonder'n....

* Dale suggests the Bandit with the factory can will benefit ("run smoother") from the addition of his ECU. Is that with or without the air box mod?

* Are there different ECU settings when running:
1. the factory muffler (?)
2. a free flow muffler (?)
3. stage 1 air box mod' (?)
4. stage 2 air box mod' (?)

* and if there ARE different ECU settings from stage 1 to stage 2, is that because of the major air box mod of stage 2, or because of the removed secondaries?

* Has ANYBODY, ANYWHERE, noted what (if any) gains there are from simply adding a free flow can and nothing more?

treybrad
03-11-2009, 04:34 PM
I was running around in the car a moment ago and got to wonder'n....

* Dale suggests the Bandit with the factory can will benefit ("run smoother") from the addition of his ECU. Is that with or without the air box mod?

* Are there different ECU settings when running:
1. the factory muffler (?)
2. a free flow muffler (?)
3. stage 1 air box mod' (?)
4. stage 2 air box mod' (?)

* and if there ARE different ECU settings from stage 1 to stage 2, is that because of the major air box mod of stage 2, or because of the removed secondaries?

* Has ANYBODY, ANYWHERE, noted what (if any) gains there are from simply adding a free flow can and nothing more?

Give Dale a call. He'll be able to answer all this and more, with more authority than anyone else. I doubt anyone, anywhere, has the amount of dyno experience with the 1250 that he does.

Plus, he's just a nice guy to talk to. :rider:

trey

sproggy
03-11-2009, 05:42 PM
* Dale suggests the Bandit with the factory can will benefit ("run smoother") from the addition of his ECU. Is that with or without the air box mod?

Every single modern bike (even a completely stock one) will run better with the fuelling optimised using an aftermarket 'box' because factory settings are a compromise that takes into account emissions regulations. So the answer to your question is 'both'.

Incidentally Dale doesn't add an ECU. He supplies a TFI box that modifies the injector signal from the stock ECU to increase the amount of fuel injected. Fairly crude, but that's another discussion.....

* Are there different ECU settings when running:
1. the factory muffler (?)
2. a free flow muffler (?)
3. stage 1 air box mod' (?)
4. stage 2 air box mod' (?)

Yes, of course (except they're not modifications to the ECU settings, only to the fuelling). Any modification that affects an engine's ability to breathe (and all 4 that you've listed do) will require fuelling changes to make it run optimally with those modifications.

* and if there ARE different ECU settings from stage 1 to stage 2, is that because of the major air box mod of stage 2, or because of the removed secondaries?

Both. Although it's clearly up for discussion regarding which of those two has the greater effect.

mi1lertm
03-11-2009, 07:20 PM
Wow this topic has really heated up. The air box lid is about $30.92 and yes you can by it by its self

13740-18H00 $30.92

I aggree that just the secondarys removed will not add power but let it breath better > 7K rpm's. I put a small hole (1") where Dale did on his
stage I setup (his was 1 & 1/2" W/TFI) and the bike ran better then stock. No I have not heal'ed my speedo but in tracking my bike I was at or above 50 mpg's most of last summer. In the winter and when I got the full stage II my mpg's dropped to high 30's, and now that it is warming up again I am seeing near 50 again. Winter fuel I assume is to blame. But being over 5K feet could keep the mileage up as well since air is less dense and fuel charge will be smaller.

Mark

treybrad
03-11-2009, 07:39 PM
Wow this topic has really heated up. The air box lid is about $30.92 and yes you can by it by its self

13740-18H00 $30.92

Oops, my bad on the misinformation. I took a quick glance at BikeBandit and didn't see it. Good to know it's affordable if I want to go back for some reason.

trey

mi1lertm
03-11-2009, 09:33 PM
If I recall right, Dale stated that when he bought one it was under $20. I just looked up OEM parts on line.

Mark

streak07
03-11-2009, 10:13 PM
* and if there ARE different ECU settings from stage 1 to stage 2, is that because of the major air box mod of stage 2, or because of the removed secondaries?

* Has ANYBODY, ANYWHERE, noted what (if any) gains there are from simply adding a free flow can and nothing more?

http://www.dobeckperformance.com/instructions/2023ST.pdf

The pots add fuel at different times/throttles/rpm's. Any modification to airflow quantity would require a fuel change for optimal a/f ratios. Its best done on a dyno. Dale has said the bike runs smoother with just it due to most every bike coming lean from the factory in lower rpm's to comply with emission laws. I've noted the same in other bikes I've modded. A can only will free up a couple hp and save a few pounds too, no fuel processor is necessary with this mod but you'll want to plug the PAIR valve as you'll hear some popping with the restrictive exhuast and catalytic converter removed.

The negative to these tuners is they can't remove fuel only add it. So you won't be truly optimal in all ranges. Top end is typically a bit rich to ensure lower running temps and build in a degree of safety from the factory. Only a PC3 can remove fuel but they cost a good bit more and take more time/knowledge to tune due to their adjustability. I have one on my mean streak but I still keep the upper rpms a bit richer than "ideal" to help the engine run a bit cooler and ensure I don't go boom when I ring it out to redline.

Fittysom'n
03-11-2009, 11:02 PM
I installed my can tonight, took her for a quick spin, and she was a really *POP*n! So I takes me a shower (from having spent all afternoon cleaning the garage), used the Search feature hoping to find an answer to the following question, and jerry-rigged some'n.....

What's the quick & easy purchase from a local hardware store to plug the PAIR hose(s)?

I just got through doing a quick & dirty, first disconnecting the hoses at the joint on the right side of the bike, plugging the joint fitting with something I found in the tool box, and the hose with a cap that fit snugly in place..... not so quick, and really tacky/dirty.

Doing the above mentioned quick & dirty, I fired the bike up in the comfort of my garage and got no *pop*..... I think. But I would embarrassed to show y'all what I did to plug 'em.

It's been hours since I last ate, so I think I'm gonna get dressed and take the bike out for some pasta somewhere.... and see if my Q&D worked (for now).

GNNY8698
03-11-2009, 11:44 PM
Well when I plugged mine i used a Foamie(earplug) and stuck it in the airbox side of the connection and waited for it to expand and then put it back together and it works great.

A1A
03-11-2009, 11:54 PM
I just used a 3/8" tapered rubber plug from the Hardware store. Installed it in the PAIR hose under the gas tank right hand side.

:rider:

Terizius
03-11-2009, 11:57 PM
I have had my pair plugged for quite a while, but after recently installing my two bros slip on, I'm still getting some popping and backfires on the occasional decel. Anyone else experiencing this? I went in last weekend and used some high temp sealant to make sure I dont have any leaks but didnt seem to help. Also adjusted the TFI back to dales stock stage 2 settings...

Fittysom'n
03-12-2009, 12:40 AM
Wow.... love the ear plug approach; don't know as how confident I would be with the porous nature of ear plugs, but I like it. I would say it's better than my HUGE stainless steel allen head bolt I forced in there, zip tying the two hoses together disjoin-ed at the center.... (in a word, my shiny bolt & zip tie is 'tacky').

But it worked. And 'yes' Terizius, I still got some popping on decel getting off from the freeway; but NOWHERE NEAR what I had before my wannabe plug!

About the pipe:
N i i c e . . ! It's got a good tone to it, and when it's wound out it reminds me of the sound (not the noise) a GP racer's exhaust makes.

About the performance:
~WHOA!~ Accelerated throttle response, increased power, and when I twisted the throttle to hear it echo in an underpass.... it lifted the front end up on me! It NEVER did THAT before!?!!

And it's a gooood looking can, really tight, really sharp!

All this with no mapping, no modified air box, no K&N air filter. Can't help but wonder what improved fuel & air delivery will do to my bike!?!!

I might be able to get a quick Dyno done to it Friday. The local Duc' shop has some Dyno time scheduled and I might be allowed a quick reading. More than any power increases, I'm more curious about my air/fuel readings.

I tell ya, this MIVV X-Cone has a sound, a tone to it, sex appeal, like no other pipe I've ever had. There is nothing raspy 'bout THIS bad boy!

Fittysom'n
03-12-2009, 01:19 AM
My MIVV X-Cone from Italy:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zyyvD3idqno

A1A
03-12-2009, 12:07 PM
My MIVV X-Cone from Italy:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zyyvD3idqno


I saw and heard that pipe about a year ago on You Tube. I really liked the looks and the sound tone on the Bandit. Did you purchase the stainless tapered can?

Just curious where you purchased the can and at what kind of price all together?


Thanks!

:rider:

Fittysom'n
03-12-2009, 02:04 PM
Glad you asked. I did business with PJ's when I had the Yamaha, and was surprised to find that they started carrying my MIVV X-Cone (pronounced ((by PJ)) as "Meev"). This is what I got, and where I got it from. For some reason he didn't charge me shipping, and the darn thing was on my doorstep 2 days after he called to say that it was on it's way(!!!).
http://www.pjsparts.com/catalog/product_info.php?manufacturers_id=17&products_id=1294
I just got through running 'round town to have a nut tig-welded in place on the removable baffle that comes riveted to the tailpiece. i.e. "removable decibel killer"

My recording last night was with the baffle removed. I put it in place with the nut & screw a moment ago, and plan to take it out for a spin when I get back from my parents tonight. It still makes for a very nice note, and I imagine it'll be beautiful when I wind it out.

My thinking is that the fuel injection and factory ECU might be better equipped for some back pressure. When I purchase Dale's TCI and do an air box mod, then I'll remove the decibel killer. HOWEVER, I hope to get an air/fuel read on it Friday WITHOUT the noise killer. If it's cool, I may just go sans baffle.

GNNY8698
03-12-2009, 09:38 PM
I used the Sound Guard orange/green ear plugs and they worked great and didnt get any decel popping at all and could install the hoses back and no-one could tell the diffrence. I was thinking of using the bolt method myself till i glanced on the work bench and saw the earplugs sitting there. If your still getting some popping you could always go with El bandito's PAIR removal and be done with it.

mi1lertm
03-12-2009, 09:45 PM
I have had my pair plugged for quite a while, but after recently installing my two bros slip on, I'm still getting some popping and backfires on the occasional decel. Anyone else experiencing this? I went in last weekend and used some high temp sealant to make sure I dont have any leaks but didnt seem to help. Also adjusted the TFI back to dales stock stage 2 settings...


Check your seal on the slipon and header (stock or otherwise) a small leak will cause a pop off throttal or on decel (since your PAIR is plugged and not open at all). I had a small leak as well and it was very hard to find. I ended up getting another Adj band (at the auto part store) and moved it up from the one that came with the can and I no longer have any issue with what you are going through.

Fifty,

There are lots of rubber stoppers you can use, I do not like the ear plug method because of the chance of it comming apart and blowing through your head into the header. Glad you like the can, just think what a properly tuned TFI or PCIII would do for you.

Enjoy,

Mark

Terizius
03-12-2009, 09:49 PM
I got the PAIR block off system, just havent installed it yet. Waiting for a weekend that i'm not riding.

Dont think its an exhaust leak. Felt nice and tight without sealant, but just to make sure, I took it all apart and used high temp silicone to put it back together....

Fittysom'n
03-13-2009, 01:52 AM
I'm sitting here a little PO'ed..... I got a nut tig-welded into place so I can easily insert & remove the baffle that came with my can. Before I left for my parents I just HADDA take the bike for a quick spin with the baffle in place. WOW, talk about a strong mid-range! And it's a pretty quiet option to leave the baffle in place.

So when I got home tonight, in preparation for a air/fuel sniff tomorrow, I proceeded to take the baffle out. But the bolt wedged itself in place, I fought it, I took some vice grips to it, and promptly snapped the head off the bolt. Now the baffle is pretty much in place until I can cut the little bolt out or break the tig weld free.... in a VERY small area; and ain't gonna be easy. And there is no way we can get the sniffer down in there for a reading now, besides it's not with the baffle in place that I want a reading.

If you knew my lot in life, my 'luck', you would know that this is VERY typical of the "challenges" I frequently have to overcome!

Bdogs1250
03-19-2009, 09:13 PM
Just wondering if anyone here has removed there secondaries and not running a PowerCommander or TFI? I was just wondering didn't want to do so and take the chances of running to lean. Also wondering if removing the cat would also take the chance of it leaning it out also. If anyone could share some well needed information. thanks ahead of time.

sproggy
03-20-2009, 06:40 AM
Just wondering if anyone here has removed there secondaries and not running a PowerCommander or TFI? I was just wondering didn't want to do so and take the chances of running to lean. Also wondering if removing the cat would also take the chance of it leaning it out also. If anyone could share some well needed information. thanks ahead of time.

rworm is running without secondaries or a PC111/TFI and seems happy with it. Because of his experience I've removed my non-cat headers, race can and PC111 so I'll be running the same way, although I do still have the O2 bypass fitted. I haven't ridden the bike yet in this configuration (I've been working evenings on it after work) but I'll know by the end of the weekend how it rides.

If you remove the cat, though, you'll definitely have to re-map using a PC111/TFI - you'd be running dangerously lean without adjusting the fuelling.

sproggy
03-22-2009, 11:39 AM
I've been out today to see what the bike's like completely stock other than:

Secondaries removed
O2 bypass fitted
PAIR plugged

It's fantastic! Smooth, refined (quiet), excellent fuelling, no surging BUT also good, natural throttle response because of the secondaries not messing things up. It was the most enjoyable ride I've had this year.

So for the price of a PAIR plug and a 1k resistor and some time to remove the secondaries you can end up with a much better ride than stock. I haven't pulled the plugs to check the mixture (it's hardly a 5 minute job) but I don't believe the lack secondaries will affect it other than, perhaps, at the very top of the rev range, throttle wide open. And I don't ride like that, so I don't care :rider:

mi1lertm
03-22-2009, 04:20 PM
Sounds good Sproggy,

The Bandit is a nice bike and now that you have gone back towards stock I assume it to be very smooth. I also feel that I have done all that I will do to the motor but I enjoy and have the space to use the extra power. My friends still can not understand why I don't run a Busa or Blackbird for my size. I do not expect them to understand so I just smile and keep riding the B1250.

Mark

rworm
03-22-2009, 07:12 PM
I've been out today to see what the bike's like completely stock other than:

Secondaries removed
O2 bypass fitted
PAIR plugged

It's fantastic! Smooth, refined (quiet), excellent fuelling, no surging BUT also good, natural throttle response because of the secondaries not messing things up. It was the most enjoyable ride I've had this year.

So for the price of a PAIR plug and a 1k resistor and some time to remove the secondaries you can end up with a much better ride than stock. I haven't pulled the plugs to check the mixture (it's hardly a 5 minute job) but I don't believe the lack secondaries will affect it other than, perhaps, at the very top of the rev range, throttle wide open. And I don't ride like that, so I don't care :rider:

Only thing I have to do is sync the bike for different temps.

Meaning around 50 to 60 degrees difference in temp the sync job changes.
Takes me about 30 minutes now,so not that big a deal;-)
"He's" synced for 80 and above as of today.
Sproggy,glad your bike is smooth!!!:clap:

sproggy
03-23-2009, 06:24 AM
Only thing I have to do is sync the bike for different temps.

Meaning around 50 to 60 degrees difference in temp the sync job changes.
Takes me about 30 minutes now,so not that big a deal;-)
"He's" synced for 80 and above as of today.
Sproggy,glad your bike is smooth!!!:clap:

Funny you should say that about temperature affecting the sync. I synced mine less that 1k miles ago but that was in August. Now, although it's smooth, I think there's probably a slight imbalance left. I'll sync it at the weekend and see how far out it is.

There's no logical reason why temperature should affect the throttle sync, but.......not everything's logical :-)