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Throttle sync and TPS

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Roy

Roy

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Roy
I put my bike on SDS yesterday and cleared the two error codes I had with the FI recently. Seems it was the O2 code C44. Dales bypass has went bad on me so I removed it. Calling him monday to see if he will sell or swap me out a new one. Meantime I tried to adjust the TPS since it was off according to the on dash info. I set it correctly but the bike ran poorly low idle and popping out the exhaust. So it seems my bike came with the throttle bodies out of sync and the TPS adjusted to mask the problem. Bike runs okay as is but it bothers me the TPS is about a half degree out. Currently its at 27 degrees should be 27.9 degrees. So I am buying a motion pro carb tuner so I can sync the throttle bodies and set my TPS correctly. The paint on the TP adjusting screw had never been tampered with so it came this way. No problem really it only makes the bike surge a bit at 3500 rpm with the state of tune its in now with the O2 connected. The O2 bypass seemed to mask the problem. I suspected from day one the throttle sync was out on this bike. Another tale tale sign was when it was on SDS the idle was up and down 100 rpm or so which is more precise than the tach neddle which is steady. The SDS is a pretty good software but its not a fix it all you must have some mechanical knowledge of the parameters. It is primarily a diagnostics software, just tells you what was going on at time of problem and what currently is going on throughout the system. So in short my O2 bypass went out (it was intermittant with it problem comes and goes) ECM is back re-mapped to stock settings and O2 re-connected. Still got the surge at 3500 on light throttle openings. The sync will solve this and I will most likely keep the O2 connected to retain good fuel mileage since I commute on the bike everyday. I'll keep this thread updated. I should have the sync tool by weeks end and tackle the sync next saturday.

So if you have the surge go into dealer mode and check the on dash readout it should look like this "-C00" not like this "_C00" or with the bar above the "C". Bar should be in the middle of the "C".
 
In all honesty i was surprised to see this thread topic, after coming off BMW
Boxer engines where valve clearances & throttle body sync is a way of life
and should be undertaken regularly, i didn't think the Bandit was affected as easily as that...

TPS adjustments are not for the faint hearted as it is very easy to stuff it up
without expert knowledge

cheers arbee
 
Arbee said:
TPS adjustments are not for the faint hearted as it is very easy to stuff it up without expert knowledge

cheers arbee
Click to expand...
I envy you guys that have mechanical skill. I'm proud of myself when I'm able to install a Stebel horn or Dale's Stage 1 kit and have the bike still start and run normally afterwards :pray: Me thinks I'll pass on the TPS adjustment and throttle body sync stuff, whatever the heck these things are :eek: :lol2:
 
KenB said:
I envy you guys that have mechanical skill. I'm proud of myself when I'm able to install a Stebel horn or Dale's Stage 1 kit and have the bike still start and run normally afterwards :pray: Me thinks I'll pass on the TPS adjustment and throttle body sync stuff, whatever the heck these things are :eek: :lol2:
Click to expand...

I have found my equal!!!! I was nervous pulling off the fuel cannister stuff!

The TB Sync stuff does make sense, but I have been told basically not to even bother checking it unless there are some "engine running" issues such as bad idle, rough take-off, etc, etc. So at 7500 miles, I think I'll stick with the oil change only as the bike is smoooooooooooooooth...............and I'll save a few bucks.
 
Roy said:
So if you have the surge go into dealer mode and check the on dash readout it should look like this "-C00" not like this "_C00" or with the bar above the "C". Bar should be in the middle of the "C".
Click to expand...

what does it mean if the bar is down like this _C00 ?
 
Arbee said:
In all honesty i was surprised to see this thread topic, after coming off BMW
Boxer engines where valve clearances & throttle body sync is a way of life.......

TPS adjustments are not for the faint hearted as it is very easy to stuff it up
without expert knowledge
Click to expand...

If TPS setting is as easy on the Bandit as it was on all the BMW boxers I had before then I'm a happy man. As you say - valve clearance, throttle body sync and TPS check are a way of life with the boxers (every 1500 miles or so in my case, just to keep them spot on). I can't see it'll be any different with the Bandit - a decent multi-meter will do the job fine. Having said that, I haven't checked the factory manual yet.

I plan on doing my own throttle body sync as I don't trust a dealer to take as much care as I would. That was always the case with BMWs and I'm sure Suzuki dealers are no different. Same goes for TPS setting - if you want it done properly, do it yourself. The only reason the dealer's getting a look at my bike is because of the warranty (7,500 mile service on Tuesday). As soon as that's up I'll do all the work myself.
 
sproggy said:
If TPS setting is as easy on the Bandit as it was on all the BMW boxers I had before then I'm a happy man. As you say - valve clearance, throttle body sync and TPS check are a way of life with the boxers (every 1500 miles or so in my case, just to keep them spot on). I can't see it'll be any different with the Bandit - a decent multi-meter will do the job fine. Having said that, I haven't checked the factory manual yet.

I plan on doing my own throttle body sync as I don't trust a dealer to take as much care as I would. That was always the case with BMWs and I'm sure Suzuki dealers are no different. Same goes for TPS setting - if you want it done properly, do it yourself. The only reason the dealer's getting a look at my bike is because of the warranty (7,500 mile service on Tuesday). As soon as that's up I'll do all the work myself.
Click to expand...

Well said. The TPS is not hard to set on the Bandit but with throttle bodies out of sync its a mute point until they are balanced. Valve adjustments are no harder I've done many a V-Atrom twin in the past and single cylinder dirtbikes where cams have to coome out. My GSXR's never seem to lose and adjustment, weird. I am not sweating the details the Bandit runs okay but it could be better and considering the _C00 on the dash is not the preferred setting then I will go forth and correct it now instead of later.
 
Arbee said:
In all honesty i was surprised to see this thread topic, after coming off BMW
Boxer engines where valve clearances & throttle body sync is a way of life
and should be undertaken regularly, i didn't think the Bandit was affected as easily as that...

TPS adjustments are not for the faint hearted as it is very easy to stuff it up
without expert knowledge

cheers arbee
Click to expand...

I have sync'd the throttle bodies on V-Strom twins in the past with ease this should be no different.
 
The TPS was set way off on most SV650's, so this is a pretty common thing to do with them. It made a big difference when I did mine...

http://forums.sv650.org/showthread.php?t=55459&highlight=throttle+position+sensor

I haven't checked mine yet, is the process pretty much the same? Do you short the same two pins in the dealer connector, I'm not sure if the bikes share the same plug style. Anyone know what RPM the -C00 is supposed to hop up to the top?

I'll probably tackle TPS/Vavle Check/TB Synch this summer. I'm at ~14k miles now, and it runs fine, so I'm in no hurry.

trey
 
TPS adjustments are not for the faint hearted as it is very easy to stuff it up without expert knowledge cheers arbee[/QUOTE said:
I find all of them much simple compared to the 4 carbed bikes with the individual throttle cables of the late 60's and early 70's. Now , they were fun. ;-).... I still even have my mercury manometer from from then in some corner of my old shop, I think? ;-).. And since I can't use the Twin Max on either of my bikes at present ;-( ...
Click to expand...
 
treybrad said:
The TPS was set way off on most SV650's, so this is a pretty common thing to do with them. It made a big difference when I did mine...

http://forums.sv650.org/showthread.php?t=55459&highlight=throttle+position+sensor

I haven't checked mine yet, is the process pretty much the same? Do you short the same two pins in the dealer connector, I'm not sure if the bikes share the same plug style. Anyone know what RPM the -C00 is supposed to hop up to the top?

I'll probably tackle TPS/Vavle Check/TB Synch this summer. I'm at ~14k miles now, and it runs fine, so I'm in no hurry.

trey
Click to expand...

Same procedure. On the 1250 plug it is the two pins to the right of plug facing it with plug release clip on top. You can check this without the bike running just have the key on and on/off switch on. Jump the two pins wait a second and look at the dash where the trip/odometer reading is at. should read -C00. I played around with the TPS with SDS saturday in graph form on the laptop, mine was at 27 degrees throttle closed wide open it was 108 degrees. Optimum setting was suppose to be 27.9 degrees closed but it would not run good at that setting, poor/low idle and popping at steady throttle opening at 3500 rpm sitting still. So I concluded very quickly that the throttle body sync was off. The shop did not have a sync tool, new dealer so yep they do not have all the tools. I have a homemade manometer at home but it is for twins, I owned two V-Stroms and the 1000 was always getting off sync. This homemade thing won't work on my multi. I odered the motion pro carb sync tool this morning and will have it thursday afternoon. I had to turn my TPS adjustment screw one full turn clockwise to get my bar in the middle of the "c" but like I said it ran poorly when I did that so I set the screw back to stock (easy to do since it was paint striped from the factory). I checked my GSX-R1000 TPS for giggles and it was spot on the money but I suspect the sync is off on it since it has a vibration at certain rpm's. I plan on setting it soon as I get the motion pro tuner. Keep in mind once you sync you must check/re-set your TPS in most cases. The both work together.

On a side note I contacted Dale Walker about the defective O2 bypass I have and he referred me to Dobeck Performance for replacement. They are sending me a new one as soon as I return the defective one. I should have that in about a week or so but I may try and get the bike to run right with the O2 hooked up. That would be nice since the fuel mileage would certainly be better and lord knows we need all the help we can get with $4 bucks a gallon gas and rising.
 
Well the sync job did not go as planned. I got the Motion Pro sync PRO in yesterday afternoon. Hooked it up proceeded to crank the bike and the fluid sucked right up into the lines instantly. I never got passed the part where you sync the tool for the job. I called Motion Pro and spoke with a tech, seems my serial number on my unit is a bad one with a hg rating not suitable for a big multi engine or a outboard engine.:giveup: So he is sending me a new unit but I would not have it until next friday they are in Ca. I am in Ms., sucks. So I called a longtime friend mechanc who used to be the guru Suzuki mechanic locally, still is only he works for a kawi dealer now. I told him the problem and he offered to loan me his Suzuki vacum ball sync tool the official tool used in the service manaul. So I am to swing by his place this afternoon and pick it up. I should get a result tonight once I tear into the bike again. What really pains me is I spent $105 bucks on that Motion Pro piece of junk made in china of course and once I took it apart and looked at how its made I concluded the replacement won't be much better. Cheap piece of junk is all I can say. I may return for it for a refund once I get the actual replacement unit next week. I may keep it though since its more trouble than its worth to ship it back I have a pre-paid UPS return label. I really wanted to own one since I suspect my 1000 is out of sync also.
 
okay its done and I will lay money down that I have the smoothest running Bandit 1250..................STOCK!!

Thats right folks stock, go buy the TFI, PC and do the O2 bypass yosh box thing but it all comes down to this,,,your bike was not properly tuned from the factory...PERIOD!! No more surge anywhere and it runs so smooth words cannot descride it. No roughness around 5k or 3500 rpm's anymore.

Let me describe this to the ones not following it so far. My bikes ECM is at stock settings currently, O2 is connected so we are closed loop once warm. My TPS from the factory was an astonishing 3/4 turn off:eek2: which in turn made a correct throttle sync almost impossible to achieve. What I did was and I stress here read you service manual it is spelled out, I set my TPS, -C00, took 3/4 turn to bring it to this. You must be in dealer mode to do this! okay now the fun part, I hooked the sync tool up to #1 vacum port to sync the tool to my bike. This must be done really accurately. It comes in to play later. Once this is done connect all the sync tools hoses to the vacum ports, go into dealer mode, unplug the ISC plug per manual. Now crank the bike, its gonna be running bad but proceed. Adjust the air mixture screws to achieve balance on each cylinder. Once this is done kill the bike, reconnect the OEM vacum hose and ISC plug. Crank the bike it may idle a bit high for the 1st 10~20 miles, don't worry the ECM is learning the new setup/map. More air in now means it must adjust. Once it gathers its needed info you will notice the idle will resume the 1200 rpm mark. If not no big deal simply do to the dealer and plug in the SDS interface and re-set the idle. Chances are you will not have to do this. The bike is smart, very smart.:trust:

Okay now that I shared that how to with you all here is the bad news. My bike was so out of whack from the factory its a wonder it even ran at all. My TPS was 3/4 tuns off to the low side, my air screws on #2~#3 were basically bottomed out. After the adjustments the bike is totally different. Completely smooth all the way to redline in fact I used to shift on the vibration pulses can't do that anymore. Now for some background on what I have done for 12k miles on ttis bike. I had a Dale Walkers O2 bypass, Yosh box re-map +5% on the low and believe it or not it ran pretty good but it sooted up the tailpipe blew black smoke and used a little oil. It ran good though but seemed fat in the map. That is when I started reading learning about the operating system and discovered all I was doing with a rich condition was masking a simple adjustment issue. The TFI is good but something I never heard Dale mention is did he check the throttle body sync or did we just take that as done? Sure any master tuner should do this right? No so many do and you would be suprised to find that out as I was. Trust me when I say this, Suzuki ASSEMBLES motorcycles they do not tune them. That my friends is left up to the dealer tech to do if and when you come back with a complaint. If you got a smooth 1250 to begin with, good for you mine was a surging nightmare from the get go and I now know why, it never has been tuned properly. BTW I have a 1000 sitting in the corner of the garage that is next, very rough at 5700 and 7k rpm's, its the sync its out.:trust:

If anyone has any questions regarding this please feel free to ask me as I am sure alot of you are riding around with some poorly tuned bikes as I was. Pouring more fuel on the fire will mask the problem but not solve it. I am checking on the purchase of the SDS software and interface cable tomorrow to put on a laptop. I figure I will need it in the future on any Suzuki so money well spent IMO.
 
Roy - it sounds like you are very pleased with the changes from your tune-up. I'm in no way qualified to do the work that you have performed. If I were to approach the dealer and request that this work be done under warranty, how would you suggest I best describe the symptoms, the display code, and the solution. Thanks in advance.
 
KenB said:
Roy - it sounds like you are very pleased with the changes from your tune-up. I'm in no way qualified to do the work that you have performed. If I were to approach the dealer and request that this work be done under warranty, how would you suggest I best describe the symptoms, the display code, and the solution. Thanks in advance.
Click to expand...

Ken 1st thing you can do is remove the right side cover. You will find a white plug with a rubber cap. Take the rubber plug cap off as you are looking straight at the plug you will see to the far right two plugs pin holes. Take a paper clip (I know I have been blasted about this elsewhere but trust me it has been around for years on Suzuki's) stick it in the two right hand side plugs holes. now turn the key on making sure the on/off switch is on. Now look at the dash where the trip meter is you will see hopefully a -C00 come up anything else like this _C00 or with the bar above the C your TPS is off. Since your not comfortable doing the actual adjustments now you have your case. Take it to the dealer and request the TPS to be set if its not correct (-C00 is correct BTW) and sync the throttle bodies while they are at it. They may charge you since this is classified as a maintenace item just depends on your relationship with your dealer. They will/should be using SDS instead of dealer mode so you will get to see alot more things that need or may not need adjusting. SDS is a dianostics tool similar to the automotive industries setup. It is a realtime tool. 1st step is to check the TPS I am curious as to how many have the missaligned unit such as I did this could explain the ones that surge and the ones that do not. Throttle valve sync is required at 7500 miles I did not do it then, my bike has 12,200 on it now. It has run bad from day one except when I masked the issue with an enrichment map and O2 bypass. If you were closer I would love to take a look at it but you ain't exactly across the street:mrgreen: Switching into dealer mode as I suggested is easy and trouble proof. This is the same way you retrieve a code if you get a light or something on the dash like when a problem arrises. I am not the best writer so please all bare with me on this as I will try to explain it in a easy to understand format. The service manual is written for the tech minded people and can be a bit hard to follow in places.
 
Well, the diagnosis sounds easy enough. But if I get anything besides -C00, I'll need to head to the dealer. My bike has Dale's complete Stage 1 kit installed. Would the TFI box affect this code at all? If I get any other code and take it to the dealer, is it advisable to remove the TFI box and 02 bypass module first? I'm guessing they would just tell me that the mods are causing the problem...
 
KenB said:
Well, the diagnosis sounds easy enough. But if I get anything besides -C00, I'll need to head to the dealer. My bike has Dale's complete Stage 1 kit installed. Would the TFI box affect this code at all? If I get any other code and take it to the dealer, is it advisable to remove the TFI box and 02 bypass module first? I'm guessing they would just tell me that the mods are causing the problem...
Click to expand...

The TFI should not affect any readings on the dash. A -C00 just says your TPS is okay as far as adjustment goes and you have no current error codes. It does not tell you how out of whack the throttle body sync is. My guess is if you had surge before the TFI install then yes the sync is definetly off proceed to the dealer and request a throttle body sync. Make sure they actually perform it and here is the clincher if your tech is not qualified your end product will only be as good as he was. Balancing throttle bodies take time and patience not eveyone will get the same result due to a number of things ie: improper balancer tool adj. sync, rushed job or just a lack of know how. I have been doing this for years, the old V-Stroms drove me nuts with the constant imbalance. Your TFI enrichment will mask a driveability issue just like my Yosh remap did but will not mask what a tech will see once he hooks up the balancer to sync the TB's. Syncing the TB's is like adding new plugs at a prescribed interval on a big multi engine it is a must do thing periodically more so important with this closed loop setup which runs lean to begin with. The Bandit is one of the easiest bieks to do this on that I have come across so far. Another thing to ponder is at the valve check the balance shoudl be perfromed also since tight vavles will affect the balance. My valves are quite noise so I seriuosly doubt mine are tight I don't even plan on checking the valves until close to 20k miles and that will be time to re-check the TB balance then anyway.
 
Logged 300 hard miles on the bike yesterday, running hard 90+ mph GPS speeds, over a 100 mph several times, mixed highway mostly with some spirited backroad running, 44 mpg!!:eek2: Serious headwinds while on the southerly freeway rides. I do not ride slow so this number is outstanding since before I would have struggled to get 38~40 mpg. There is still a slight and I do mean slight on off surge at very light throttle openings at cruise speed. Usually right after having the throttle pinned for miles then roll off then back on lightly. I can live with it. This is the O2 planing I suspect. The mileage is impressive and with gas at $4 bucks a gallon and climbing this is good very good. Parking lot speed chugging is apparent in 2nd gear (shouldn't be in 2nd gear at this speed anyway) but I am sure that is normal with the OEM lean maps. It pulls like a rapped ape up top now before I could roll on hard and if I let off the throttle a bit it would speed up, not now it continues to climb and pull hard all the way to redline. Bottom end top gear roll on passing is good. I went and connected the bike to SDS yesterday to clear the -C13 code you create by doing a dealer mode sync. You do not have to clear this code it is stored under DTC but while I was there I went ahead and cleared the ECM's memory. I like a tidy shop. I went through all the information to see if it was all in order, sure enough the idle is at what is was from the factory and throttle position was 27.5 degrees, would have liked to see 27.9 here but I may tweak that next week when my replacement balancer gets here. I don't think the few tenths of a degree will make it any better or worse just me getting anal with this that is all.

I am quite happy with the results. My tailpipe has began to clear up from the sooty black it always was to more of a chalky grey color inside with black rim tip now similar to my 1000. I was running way too rich before with the throttle bodies being out of whack and the TPS off and me having a fat re-map to compensate all that.

I should have my replacement O2 bypass in a week or so and I may install it so see what if anything changes. I suspect the slight on off surge will be gone with that installed but I am still leery of what map state the O2 bypass locks the ECM in, seems no one will tell me that supplies these items maybe they just do not know. Either way its a 5 second ordeal to plug and play with it. I also plan on re-checking the TB sync with my replacement motion pro balancer by weeks end just to compare the fluid type manometer job with the ball vacum unit job I originally did the work with.

I bet I get 50 mpg commuting on it this week:mrgreen:
 
Very interesting comment about MPG, Roy. I wonder if this might have something to do with the disparity in MPG reported by so many Bandit owners. I regularly get 48-50 MPG and I'm not exactly babying it. Perhaps the guys that are getting high 30's and low 40's are in need of throttle sync / TPS adjustment?
 
KenB said:
Very interesting comment about MPG, Roy. I wonder if this might have something to do with the disparity in MPG reported by so many Bandit owners. I regularly get 48-50 MPG and I'm not exactly babying it. Perhaps the guys that are getting high 30's and low 40's are in need of throttle sync / TPS adjustment?
Click to expand...

That is exactly what I have been thinking also Ken. It would be worth a check if anyone is getting sub-par mileage, its so easy to do. Be for warned the TPS has about a 1/2 turn on the screw of adjustment where it actually will appear correct on the dash but actually a few tenths of a degree up or down utilizing SDS to analyze it exactly. I advanced my TPS a few more tenths of a degree today, much better down low no more chugging in the parking lot. Outstanding burst of acceleration in the mid range, WOW my GSXR-1000 better watch out, well maybe not that good:mrgreen: I have all but gotten rid of the slight on off light surge I mentioned earlier. This thing actually rides/runs pretty dang good and its all stock except for the Leo Vince slip-on pipe. throttle blips are so cool now brap, brap almost sounds like my 450 at times.:lol2: I got another steady 43 mpg today running my usual brisk pace. If I would slow down I am good for at least 48 mpg I just know it.

I am done tinkering for now until I get my replacement balancer guages later this week. I'll update as need be.
 
Roiy:

I am having trouble finding the screw to adjust TPS in the manual and on the bike.

To start with - my bike runs well, gets 47mpg at 80mph on longer freeway runs, and is relatively smooth at 1500+ all the way up. For kicks, I set it into dealer mode and got the -C00 as you indicacte. BUT, if it were out, where the heck is the adjuster screw? Can you supply a photo maybe?

Thanks man.

Phil
 
More confusion:

It would appear on other models that the adjustment is loosening the unit by the two mounting screws and twisting it. Is that true here as well while reading Ohm 1 and Ohm 2 readings?
 
PhilS said:
More confusion:

It would appear on other models that the adjustment is loosening the unit by the two mounting screws and twisting it. Is that true here as well while reading Ohm 1 and Ohm 2 readings?
Click to expand...

phil on the 1250 the TP adjustment is by a screw. Remove the tank look down between #2 and #3 thottle body right where the throttle cables go in you will see a screw with a spring under it, the TP screw is hidden under the throttle wheel. 10 mm nut with a allen key in the center should have white paint on it. The TP sensor on the 1250 is a combination unit unlike previous models with the torx screw loosened you twist the actual sensor not so on the 1250. Idle is adjusted by a step motor which you will see also under the middle of the throtle bodies, idle can only be set with SDS link. They do not discuss this secret TP screw because they simply do not want you messing with it since it a major player in EPA tuning. They briefly mention it in throttle body disassembly section of the manual. If you have -C00 right now chances are at 7500 miles just check you TB sync and keep rolling. That was not the case on my friday built bike.:doh:

My GSX-R1000 is a '06 not a complete SDS bike as the '07s are. You adjust the TP on it at the sensor by twisting it once you have the torx screw loose. I checked it and it was spot on but it only has 4k miles on it. I do plan on checking the TB sync on it soon though.
 
Thanks a ton.

I am at 5000 miles and have the rest of the season to get to 7500. I will be looking into the local shops to find a great "tuning guy" who will look at the TPSensor/TBSync via his SDS link at next service.

Thanks for the tips - nice write ups.
 
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