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Electrical Problems in Sugar Land

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leekellerking

leekellerking

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Sugar Land, Texas
First Name
Lee
Last Name
King
I am having electrical problems with my "new" 1982 Honda CB650SC Nighthawk and I was hoping I could find some help here.

First thing -- does anyone in the Sugar Land/Fort Bend area have a VOM I can borrow for a few days?

Thanks,


Lee
 
leekellerking said:
I am having electrical problems with my "new" 1982 Honda CB650SC Nighthawk and I was hoping I could find some help here.

First thing -- does anyone in the Sugar Land/Fort Bend area have a VOM I can borrow for a few days?

Thanks,


Lee
Click to expand...

Okay, got the VOM and a battery tender from my neighbor. Now, once the battery is charged I can start troubleshooting.

Got to get it running by tomorrow so I don't break my streak. I've ridden every day since I bought the bike! :rider:

Lee
 
leekellerking said:
I am having electrical problems with my "new" 1982 Honda CB650SC Nighthawk and I was hoping I could find some help here.
Thanks,


Lee
Click to expand...

Waaaa!! I still haven't figured out the problem.:eek2: :eek2: :eek2:

The bike starts fine and runs for 2 or 3 miles and then blows a fuse (where I put an inline fuse holder in, instead of that darned fusible link).

It seems to be getting worse. The bike went two weeks between purchase and the first fusible link blew. Then it went nearly another two weeks. Now it won't run more than a few miles and frankly, I'm getting tired of pushing. :doh:

I have a volt-ohm meter I borrowed from a friend, but the readings I am getting off the voltage regulator/rectifier are garbled. (Probably an operator problem). I have looked for worn wires, but haven't find any yet.

What can I do??? :giveup: :giveup: :giveup:

Help. :pray:

Lee
 
Is there any chance that you have a wiring diagram for your bike?

Not trying to be obvious here but something downline from the fuse is pulling too much current.

You might try removing all the fuses and reinstalling just enough to get the ignition working so the bike will run.

You can then add fuses, one at a time, until your replacement fuse link blows again.
 
Lee, found this website. CB650 wiring

If this matches your bike, are you speaking about one of the 10 amp fuses or the 30 amp Main fuse?
 
Lee,

The fact that it's more frequent may mean that it's related to a short that is aggravated by riding, as you are (no doubt) riding it more than it was ridden before you picked it up - perhaps a pinched wire in the steering head, etc.

BTW - my electrical problems (in NW Harris County) were resolved Tues evening as Centerpoint :-)
 
sbrogden said:
Lee,

The fact that it's more frequent may mean that it's related to a short that is aggravated by riding, as you are (no doubt) riding it more than it was ridden before you picked it up - perhaps a pinched wire in the steering head, etc.
Click to expand...
+
Under the seat?
Under the gas tank , (very probable as the main harness runs there).
Tank get removed for vearious maintaince items. Seat also.

get a clip for the probes, this allows you to make a solid connection to one end of the probe loop. look for arced over spots on the frame and any metal parts that are near the wire harness.
 
Don:

Please do not be afraid to be too obvious. :thumb: It has been a LONG time since I have had to troubleshoot anything electrical (and I was never all that good at it, anyway). :doh:

I'll try removing the fuses. :doh: :doh: :doh:

BTW, it is the 30 amp fusible link that is blowing, not one of the smaller fuses.

I have removed the seat (several times) but I'm having difficulty in removing the tank. The petcock is not working right and (1) leaks in reserve position, and (2) leaks if you put any pressure on it. (It also seems to work the same in On and Off positions). I am concerned that I will end up dumping my entire tank (yes, I just filled it before the problem got this serious).


Lee

donroger1 said:
Is there any chance that you have a wiring diagram for your bike?

Not trying to be obvious here but something downline from the fuse is pulling too much current.

You might try removing all the fuses and reinstalling just enough to get the ignition working so the bike will run.

You can then add fuses, one at a time, until your replacement fuse link blows again.
Click to expand...
 
DaveC said:
+
Under the seat?
Under the gas tank , (very probable as the main harness runs there).
Tank get removed for vearious maintaince items. Seat also.

get a clip for the probes, this allows you to make a solid connection to one end of the probe loop. look for arced over spots on the frame and any metal parts that are near the wire harness.
Click to expand...

Yea, I was wondering about that. I haven't used a VOM in over 20 years, and then on stuff like x-ray machines. I guess I need to go back to Autozone (or Radio Shack if it is open).

On a brighter note, it looks like the lack of resources to fix my bike (stores closed, people out of touch, etc) has been the worst impact of Hurrican Ike on me and my family. I need to count my blessings! :pray:

God bless,

Lee
 
TROUBLESHOOTING UPDATE

I pulled all the 15 amp fuses except the 2nd one from the left (which allowed the bike to run) and went for a little ride around the neighborhood. I got about 5 or 6 miles and it died with a burned main fuse.

Like a dummy, I put my last 30 amp fuse in and cranked it back up. It went about 2 feet and died, so I pused the 5 or 6 blocks home.

So, I think this helps some. The short is NOT in the lighting system or the horn circuit.

I need to do a few "honey do" items and then go get some more 30 amp fuses. Then I'll see if I can trace the short.

It would help if the "color coded" schematic in the back of my Chilton's manual was actually in COLOR! :doh:

I looked at the link DonRoger sent but I'm not sure (yet) if is the right one. My bike is a CB650SC and may be different from the CB650, even in the same year. I'll check.

Thanks for the help, guys.

And hey! At least I got to ride 6 miles today! :rider:
 
Lee,
If the wiring diagram matches or is similar, I would locate and unplug the rectifier/regulator.
That should remove the "charging system" from the circuit and the bike should run on the battery alone. If is continues to run without blowing the 30amp, then I would guess that the rectifier/regulator is partially shorted.
 
Ditto what Don said. One other possibility is a weak battery drawing too much charging current. Check your battery voltage after it has sat overnight and see what the static voltage on the battery is. less than 12.8 indicates a possible weak cell. With the engine running check the charging voltage for level and stability. On my VFR I had 14-18 volts DC registering on the DC setting and it was bouncing like mad. Switched the VOM over to AC to see how stable. or how much 'hum' was in the system and it had 50-60 volts AC across the charging leads. that was a bad rectifier that I did not find until it had damaged the battery.

I hate electrical problems.... especially when the symptoms are ambiguous. Just remember... fuses blow for a reason.... just replacing the fuse does not fix the problem, only the symptom.
 
donroger1 said:
Lee,
If the wiring diagram matches or is similar, I would locate and unplug the rectifier/regulator.
That should remove the "charging system" from the circuit and the bike should run on the battery alone. If is continues to run without blowing the 30amp, then I would guess that the rectifier/regulator is partially shorted.
Click to expand...


Okay, I'll give it a try tomorrow after I put the bike back together.

I pulled the seat, tank and headlight module and started checking the wiring. One thing, there are a couple of splices in the harness, including one where two green wires are spliced into one green wire.

Another issue -- I have not been able to unplug the wire harness from the starter solenoid assembly. The black plastic fuse cover is cracked. I wonder if that is part of the problem?



Lee
 
leekellerking said:
Another issue -- I have not been able to unplug the wire harness from the starter solenoid assembly.
Click to expand...

:tab I would think that the starter connection would be a nut and post connection.
:tab You would have to unbolt the connection instead of unplugging it.


leekellerking said:
The black plastic fuse cover is cracked. I wonder if that is part of the problem?

Lee
Click to expand...

:tab If this is the inline fuse that you added after the problem started, I would think not.
:tab If the fuse cover is used to secure the fuse in the holder, it could cause a fuse to blow if it is loose.
:tab The poor connection draws current as well and can easily cause the fuse to blow.

As Ed mentioned, if your battery measures 12 volts or more after setting overnight, the battery is probably okay.
If your battery measures more than 14 while the bike is running, your charging circuit is not regulating. (actually 13.8v I believe)
If you are overcharging the battery, you would likely blow the fuse as well.

Let us know how it goes Lee. :pray:
 
donroger1 said:
:tab I would think that the starter connection would be a nut and post connection.
:tab You would have to unbolt the connection instead of unplugging it.
Click to expand...

There are both. The red wire from the battery and the black ground wire both screw on. And, there is a plug that connects the unit to the wire harness.

:tab If this is the inline fuse that you added after the problem started, I would think not.
:tab If the fuse cover is used to secure the fuse in the holder, it could cause a fuse to blow if it is loose.
:tab The poor connection draws current as well and can easily cause the fuse to blow.

As Ed mentioned, if your battery measures 12 volts or more after setting overnight, the battery is probably okay.
If your battery measures more than 14 while the bike is running, your charging circuit is not regulating. (actually 13.8v I believe)
If you are overcharging the battery, you would likely blow the fuse as well.

Let us know how it goes Lee. :pray:
Click to expand...

I will check the battery again in the morning.

Thanks, guys.


Lee
 
Good news:

1. I was able to put the bike back together (although, I'm not satisfied with the way the wiring went back into the headlight nacelle and I'm going to redo that tomorrow), and

2. I rode over 10 miles around the neighborhood (okay, five and five) without blowing a fuse.

[Note to self -- when using an inline fuse holder instead of the fusible link, do NOT reach down to check if the fuse is hot. Those wires pull out WAY easy and duplicate the effect of a blown fuse]

So tomorrow I am going to hook up the rectifier/regulator and check the voltage, just to be sure. However, I checked that yesterday before I heard from Don and you other guys and I think it read 14.5 volts while charging, which I believe y'all said was too high.

I checked the battery alone and it read 12.4 volts.


New question -- with a battery tender on at night, how long can I go without a rectifier/regulator?

Thanks,

Lee
 
Lee,
IMO!
Honda's have unique wiring, and I'm no expert but, the system is "Chassis" ground, and Green wires are normally also considered ground wires.
On your 26 yr old bike the problem "IS" probably a bad connection!!! But, not a "SHORT" in the classic sense of the term!
Chances are...The plug where the wires (3 yellow?) coming from the alternator under the side cover, to the main wiring harness is prone to melting on older Hondas, and is fairly simple to fix.
Check all other electrical connections you can find, especially the melted one, and also any place something electrical mounts to the chassis, for rust or corrision.
And, to avoid having to push it home again... Once the bike is started, remove one of the battery cables. If it dies, then it's probably running on the battery.
In my experiance fuses, fusiable links, etc... provide nothing more than to prevent damage to a wiring harness in the event of a true short circuit!
Hope this helps!
 
Okay -- update on the Nighthawk:

I hooked the Regulator/Rectifier up and checked the voltage at the battery while the bike is running. The VOM shows 14.8 to 14.9 volts.

I take it that this is bad?


I can get a new R/R for $99.00 from Electrosport and they claim it is improved to avoid the problems the OEM unit has if the field coil developes problems.

http://www.electrosport.com/products/product-detail-579.php

What do you all think? :ponder:

Thanks,

Lee
 
leekellerking said:
Okay -- update on the Nighthawk:

I hooked the Regulator/Rectifier up and checked the voltage at the battery while the bike is running. The VOM shows 14.8 to 14.9 volts.

I take it that this is bad?


I can get a new R/R for $99.00 from Electrosport and they claim it is improved to avoid the problems the OEM unit has if the field coil developes problems.

http://www.electrosport.com/products/product-detail-579.php

What do you all think? :ponder:

Thanks,

Lee
Click to expand...

Lee,

I would spend the money on a new regulator/rectifier.

Your voltage reading does seem high.

Proof would be to take the reading again after replacing the regulator..........
 
donroger1 said:
Lee,

I would spend the money on a new regulator/rectifier.

Your voltage reading does seem high.

Proof would be to take the reading again after replacing the regulator..........
Click to expand...

That's my call. With the R/R disconnected, I rode 15 miles this afternoon with no problems. With it connected I couldn't go more than about 5 miles. Coincidence? I think not.

My question remains -- how far can I ride on the batter with the R/R disconnected (assuming that I use a battery tender every night)?


Lee
 
leekellerking said:
Okay -- update on the Nighthawk:

I hooked the Regulator/Rectifier up and checked the voltage at the battery while the bike is running. The VOM shows 14.8 to 14.9 volts.

I take it that this is bad?


I can get a new R/R for $99.00 from Electrosport and they claim it is improved to avoid the problems the OEM unit has if the field coil developes problems.

http://www.electrosport.com/products/product-detail-579.php

What do you all think? :ponder:

Thanks,

Lee
Click to expand...

I have an 83 hawk and it has an ALTERNATOR. Removing the battery cable from a running alternator chargeing system usually causes engine to die since the alternator REQUIRES BATTERY VOLTAGE TO THE FIELD COILS TO PRODUCE OUTPUT. My alt died via shorted windings..........a VOM read 14 or so volts but shorted windings caused charging CURRENT to be extremely low. The replacement alt was the "heavy duty" design to prevent the problem from re-occuring(and $200 about 10 years ago!!!:eek2: I think you will find alt output will be as much as 16-18 volts on a heavily loaded battery, that is to say, short trips with all lights on. The starter draws lots of power from the battery. If you run on battery with chg sys disconnected, I would be surprised if you got maor than 30 miles(remember all the lights and ignition place draw on the remaining power left in the battery). Also, this power depletion to the battery every ride(using tender to re-charge) is extremely hard on those tiny little cells.....they are nowhere near as large as a car's! IMHO, I think the alt may be going bad. If my son still has factory book on my 83 I'll try to get info to you. As others have said, look for melted connections, corroded connections, loose connections, rubbed through insulation. Hope my thoughts help. PS: the tender requires a reasonable voltage left on the battery or the auto sense circuits will not let it charge the battery.
 
Wally is right about letting your battery get too depleted.

Your range would depend on the capacity of your battery.

The batteries first current hit would be starting the bike with the "magic button".

Thereafter, it depends on how much current your lighting system uses.

The ignition draws very little current compared to the "other users".

I would guess (and it is only a guess) that you could ride 30 miles each way for a few days as long as you recharge each evening.
 
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