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Don’t get disturbed. It’s just a thought.

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1. The first thing that many riders do is install less restrictive air filters, less restrictive mufflers, and larger jets to increase horsepower.

2. Does anyone here know of anyone who has installed more restrictive air filters, more restrictive mufflers, and smaller jets to increase fuel economy?

3. On a fuel injected bike with closed loop oxygen sensor, if you restricted the air intake, would the computer read a rich mixture and lean it out to increase fuel economy?

I’m not nuts. I'm just posing some unusual questions to perk up discussions.:mrgreen:
 
more restrictive air filter and exhaust would actually hurt mileage

better flowing air filter and exhaust should improve economy because you're making it easier for the engine to do its job. what makes the mileage worse is your riding habits [read:heavy wrist] after you get all this new power on tap
 
More HP will help you in your quest for better mpg. If you ride your bike exactly like you do now, but with the mods, your mpg will go up.

The problem usually is with the right wrist. You get more hp, you rag it more, you use more gas.

Think of it like this. HP is a measure of work able to be done over time. With more HP, your bike is more efficient, ie, it can do more work in the same amount of time. If you make it do the same work, you are using less energy and therefore less gas.

Make sense? It made sense to me when I read that in a magazine a while back and a few other places.
 
My first reaction is,
that techies, groupies, gear heads, engineers, computers, and repeatable experiments getting predictable results.... CAN NOT be bettered by back yard mechanics, weekend racers, and those in pursuit of raw power.

I muck with my bikes because it's fun, makes my bike sound cool, appeals to my machismo, and makes me think I'm faster. I have yet to see improved economy when I've tried to improve upon a design already dialed in by folks who actually KNOW what they're doing. However I've contributed to increased pollution, both atmospheric and audible.

That said,
- WWDWD -
('What would Dale Walker do?')
If he was told to IMPROVE upon fuel mileage with NO REGARD to Ricky Road Racer performance, what would he do differently with his goodies?
 
From what I have seen jetting and pipes destroys mpg,even easy riding uses more.It's hard to out do what the mfg.builds and not ruin mpg.I've seen 36 mpg klr 650's and twin Honda 1800's 80 miles on a tank!The only [FREE] power is via a turbo and the price is wayyyyyyy to much. Charles
 
Oh,forgot to add.Just buy a bike that can scare the britches off you to begin with and the impulse to want more will go away. Charles
 
My first reaction is,
that techies, groupies, gear heads, engineers, computers, and repeatable experiments getting predictable results.... CAN NOT be bettered by back yard mechanics, weekend racers, and those in pursuit of raw power.

Not true........depending upon how you define 'bettered'. A motorcycle manufacturer (and in that term I include all your techies and the rest) is forced to design within the constraints of regulations in force in a number of different markets. Put simply, they have to make the bike clean and quiet. Clean and quiet does not mean efficient - quiet means you are restricting gas flow on the inlet and exhaust and clean means you are setting the a/f ratio to achieve a perceived environmental target, not peak performance.

You and I don't have to conform to those regulations - we can allow the engine to use less of its power just to breathe, making more power available to drive the bike. If you use no more power than you did on the stock bike, all other things being equal, you'll get better fuel economy.

BUT (and it's a big BUT) when you take your bike, equipped with a K&N filter, drilled airbox, aftermarket can etc, to a dyno the operator will assume that your target is more power. So he'll tune for more power, leading to a slightly richer mixture (on average) than the bike would have had before and therefore no improvement in fuel consumption. If, however, you asked him for minimum fuel usage he'd lean things out and the bike would use less fuel than it did stock at the expense of a bit of potential power........ but no-one asks for this, because one side effect of running lean is surging and abrupt throttle response which is what most people fit a PC111/TFI to get rid of in the first place!

So in answer to your last question, what would a tuner do - he'd do everything exactly the same in terms of improving breathing (filters, headers, can etc) BUT he'd tune the fuelling for economy rather than power. The bike might run like **** but it would use less fuel than a stock one. So the tuning methods are the same for economy or power, it's only the fuelling that is different.
 
My two cents worth..... If you want to improve MPG through modification install a throttle stop that prevents opening her up past half throttle. Leaning it out beyond stock settings is asking for engine damage. Stock settings are lean already for emissions purposes.
 
Leaning it out beyond stock settings is asking for engine damage. Stock settings are lean already for emissions purposes.

I wasn't suggesting leaning out beyond stock, simply not making it as much richer as most dyno operators would when aiming for maximum power.
 
"The bike might run like **** but it would use less fuel than a stock one."

..... and there lies the rub.
In short, the best compromise is a factory tuned machine.

I don't mind releasing more pollutants into the air, increased noise on our city streets, and unnecessarily blipping the throttle at every stop light, down-shift, errant car merging into my lane, or the hot chick I want to get the attention of.... HEY, it's FUN!

In 38+ years of riding & messing with my intake, jetting, and exhaust, I have NEVER seen increased mileage as a result. I think it's purely academic to propose that fuel economy AND performance can be increased by messing with a factory tuned bike; in the real world..... it ain't happening. In the real world, factories are doing an absolutely FANTASTIC job giving us an environmental friendly lean and green running machine. Our HUGE mufflers are incredibly efficient at flowing the exhaust while keeping the noise to a minimum.... And MY GOD the power modern bikes are putting out!!!

I guarantee, folk are already pulling the muffler off the new gazillion horsepower V-Max..... claiming that they can get yet ANOTHER 3 to 7 ponies from the engine. Never happy, we're just never happy with a box stock, UN-mucked with, factory machine.... believing instead that "I can make it better!" I mean, a mere 104hp and 84ft.lb's of torque, and a top speed of 145+ mph, just isn't enough.
Rooooight......
---------------------------------------------

And still, I'm anxiously looking forward to Dale's 4-1 header, stage 2 can, fuel nanny, altered air box, free flowing air filter, and modified ignition settings.....! But if the new micro-managing, harbinger of "change", left wing college edumacated, socialist promoting, President (elect) finds out what I'm doing.... I'll be offered the stamp of '666' or have my bike/freedom taken away from me.
 
In short, the best compromise is a factory tuned machine.

Not for me. The stock bike didn't run well enough for me. Now it does. And yes, as I've said in a different post, it uses around 5% more fuel in the process but that's only because I had it tuned for max torque and power. Set up to run a bit leaner (more like stock, but not quite as lean) I have no doubt whatsoever that it would have used less fuel than a stock bike and still made considerably more power. But I have no desire to prove this as I'm happy the way it is - 5% more fuel is a small price to pay for the way it runs now. I don't ride bikes for economy, I ride them for fun.

In 38+ years of riding & messing with my intake, jetting, and exhaust, I have NEVER seen increased mileage as a result.

The crucial word there is 'jetting'. You're talking about carburettor engines, where the control of fuelling is crude and it's simply not possible to have them running so lean while still remaining healthy and rideable. With an injected bike, improving the breathing (induction and exhaust) WILL improve economy IF the fuelling is set up apropriately. How could it not? If the engine requires less power to suck air in and push exhaust gasses out you'll have more power available to drive the bike, meaning you need to open the throttle slightly less, meaning less fuel used.

I think it's purely academic to propose that fuel economy AND performance can be increased by messing with a factory tuned bike; in the real world..... it ain't happening.

The Bandit is the first of a large number of injected bikes that I've tuned that HASN'T seen an improvement in economy. I saw improvements on various BMWs, a Blackbird, a Triumph and.....well, a number of others.

In the real world, factories are doing an absolutely FANTASTIC job giving us an environmental friendly lean and green running machine. Our HUGE mufflers are incredibly efficient at flowing the exhaust while keeping the noise to a minimum.... And MY GOD the power modern bikes are putting out!!!

Yes, they're doing a fantastic job, but every bike that rolls off every production line in the civilised world is compromised by its need to comply with regulations. That means there is scope for improvement - the factory engineers know this perfectly well but their hands are tied.

Why do you think that bikes like the Ducati 1098R, Aprilia Mille Factory and a few other top end bikes are delivered to their customers with a second set of cans and a different ECU marked "for track use only"? What Ducati and the others are saying is "Here's a bike that's legal for us to sell and you to buy. But if you want it the way we designed it, fit these other bits because it'll go much better." Those other bits (can(s) and some method of adjusting the fuelling) are what so many people fit to their bikes because they know that the stock bikes are compromised and they want to realise a bit more of their bike's potential.

Sure, modern sports bikes put out a lot of power, but if they comply with regulations when sold there's always going to be a bit more available. And that's what draws people to tinker with them.

I mean, a mere 104hp and 84ft.lb's of torque, and a top speed of 145+ mph, just isn't enough.
Rooooight......

104bhp from 1255cc just isn't trying. It's the vast, untapped potential of the Bandit motor that means it's crying out for tuning. You try riding a 130bhp 1250 Bandit with absolutely no flat spots or surging - believe me, you'll never want to go back to what you've got. So, we can't improve on Suzuki's stock bike? Pah!
 
"You try riding a 130bhp 1250 Bandit with absolutely no flat spots or surging - believe me, you'll never want to go back to what you've got."

-- Stop it --
I'm doing my best NOT to be so tempted, to include claiming that Suzuki knows what's best for me.

And believe you ME, if I had the "extra" money, my bike woulda already been converted to the beast that lurks within..... and my fuel economy the same as the 38 mpg I got the other day while partying on the wild side?!? (An indicated 145 mph is really really easy to get up to, finding a road that affords you the security to take her beyond isn't quite so....)

Which reminds me,
be it my R1150R, Sprint RS, Sportster 1200'S', FZ1, or cute little Bonnie 790 (all of my recent past), my gas mileage has always been as little as 36-38 mpg during the most spirited of my riding.
 
Sproggy,

If flow is restricted (intake and exhaust) of a FI bike with an oxygen sensor, wouldn’t the computer read an overly rich mixture from oxygen sensor input, and send command to the FI control to inject less fuel, resulting in better fuel economy at the expense of less power?

I’m not suggesting that many people would want to do that (trade off power for fuel economy). I’m only asking if the basic theory holds true.
 
more restrictive air filter and exhaust would actually hurt mileage

better flowing air filter and exhaust should improve economy because you're making it easier for the engine to do its job. what makes the mileage worse is your riding habits [read:heavy wrist] after you get all this new power on tap

Speaking only to the exhaust aspect... If you remove to much restriction, you actually hurt mileage and hp.

The reason for this is you need to have a certain amount of back pressure to aide with the complete burn of the fuel. Otherwise you allowing some unused fuel/power find its way out the pipe.

How much is the right amount? dont know, and I dont think it matters much unless you are racing. The way I figure it, most people change thier exhaust primarily for the sound output, not for any substantial hp or mileage gain.
 
If flow is restricted (intake and exhaust) of a FI bike with an oxygen sensor, wouldn’t the computer read an overly rich mixture from oxygen sensor input, and send command to the FI control to inject less fuel, resulting in better fuel economy at the expense of less power?

In the situation that you describe yes, the O2 sensor would adjust the fuelling. But then you (the rider) would simply open the throttle further to get the desired acceleration or steady speed. Throttle further open = more air getting in = more fuel injected. The fact remains that intake/exhaust restrictions are taking power from the engine and therefore requiring fuel to overcome them. It's no different from riding with the brakes slightly on.

blackhawk said:
Speaking only to the exhaust aspect... If you remove to much restriction, you actually hurt mileage and hp.

The reason for this is you need to have a certain amount of back pressure to aide with the complete burn of the fuel. Otherwise you allowing some unused fuel/power find its way out the pipe.

No, if you remove too much restriction you hurt the torque, but you facilitate the engine releasing MORE power at higher revs. Hurting fuel consumption doesn't matter in the pursuit of ultimate power. In the unrestricted (e.g. by race rules) pursuit of power, wasting some fuel is considered perfectly acceptable if it results in higher peak power. You may lose some unburned fuel out of the pipe but you don't 'lose' power out of an open pipe.
 
I get on "average" about 46-47mpg with my 2007 1250 Bandit.

I've seen as high as 52mpg and as low as 42 but the latter was REALLY flogging it all day long...a lot of time spent in triple digits too.

I usually can go 175-180 miles before both fuel indicators start to flash, which indicates I'm on "reserve" and I have about 25 miles or about a half gallon of fuel left.
 
SoCalBandit
Your average gas mileage is very impressing for a 1250cc bike. GregH averages 43-46. Maybe it’s different riding habits or just vehicle variations. Have you done any sprocket changes or other modifications on your bandit?
 
Speaking only to the exhaust aspect... If you remove to much restriction, you actually hurt mileage and hp.

The reason for this is you need to have a certain amount of back pressure to aide with the complete burn of the fuel. Otherwise you allowing some unused fuel/power find its way out the pipe.

How much is the right amount? dont know, and I dont think it matters much unless you are racing. The way I figure it, most people change thier exhaust primarily for the sound output, not for any substantial hp or mileage gain.

very true, straight open headers are as bad if not worse for economy than stock pipes
 
As for me, no engine mods or new sprockets. I'm running a stock motor...until gets his 4-into-1 Header out that is!
 
SoCalBandit
Your average gas mileage is very impressing for a 1250cc bike. GregH averages 43-46. Maybe it’s different riding habits or just vehicle variations. Have you done any sprocket changes or other modifications on your bandit?
Nope.....totally stock except for a Scorpion slip on.....and I'm no light weight at 290 lbs!! :trust: It's like I'm riding 2 or 3 up all the time!! :rofl:
 
Looking at Dale's A/F mixture for the stage one and proto header setup you will see something interesting. On the stage 1 the A/F is leaner around 4K and stays leaner then stock A/F, now it is true that you are moving more air then stock along with more fuel, but this is why the mileage is so good. With the proto type header again you see the oppisite, it is richer near 4K and then leans out later on. Now this is with the butterflys still in and we are now waiting for the full setup. But as stated in this thread, you can get mileage and power at the same time. Also, full ins coverage on my bike is ~$360 a year because it is a 103hp bike stock. Got to love it.

Cheers,

p.s. one of the charts will not expand so I added the other one. I can not figure out how to remove it.
 

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Re: Don’t get disturbed. It’s just a thought.

On kind of a tangent here , but over at max-zuk a few guys have a project going to hack the ECU of the new bandit . If successful this will be a heck of a boon for performance increase. It is becoming obvious the factory engineers went to extreme measures to hobble the HP output at the top of the rev range . The rev limit is too low and timing is retarded at the top of the scale [the infamous 8600 rpm dip] If we can get some modified maps to reflash the ECU i am betting on 140 clean torquey HP with just exhaust and intake mods :rider:
http://www.maximum-suzuki.com/forums/index.php/topic,68731.0.html
 
On kind of a tangent here , but over at max-zuk a few guys have a project going to hack the ECU of the new bandit . If successful this will be a heck of a boon for performance increase. It is becoming obvious the factory engineers went to extreme measures to hobble the HP output at the top of the rev range . The rev limit is too low and timing is retarded at the top of the scale [the infamous 8600 rpm dip] If we can get some modified maps to reflash the ECU i am betting on 140 clean torquey HP with just exhaust and intake mods :rider:
http://www.maximum-suzuki.com/forums/index.php/topic,68731.0.html

That's GREAT news but a word to the wise, this WILL void your warrantee if you develope any kind of engine probs if the dealer would find out by checking the ECU........might want to wait untill out of warrantee to do this mod.......man that would be HARD to wait!! :mrgreen:
 
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