thinking out loud.....

Was it me, or the bike?
I may have to rethink my purchase of an '08 Bandit 1250 w/ABS....
- or -
heavily modify the suspension, make a bagger of it, and behave,
- or -
take it in for warranty work (likely nothing 'wrong' with it though),
- or -
grow up & slow down,
- or -
sell it.

I put my leathers on late this morning, took the back-roads to a straight shot and got'er up to an indicated 147 mph and held it there, unable to get any more out of her.
- then -
found my way via some high speed sweepers to some switch backs
- and -
began to party!

To give you an idea of how hard I was flogging her, I got 32 mpg during those 100 miles of "party"ing. I'm not an accomplished rider, I've never been to 'CLASS', Pridmore, or any instructional track daze.... just 38 years of riding year 'round.

Cutting to the chase:
- I am convinced that my brakes suck (for aggressive riding). They're spongy, they feel like they've got air in the lines, they lack 'feel'.
- I've now grown accustom to giving the hand lever a pump or two before towing her down.
- and rapid pumping, or a sudden stab at the brake lever, causes the lever to stack on itself. This has created a very brief panic that my brakes aren't working, then suddenly realizing that they're grabbing, but with increased effort on my part.
-----------------------
- Very VERY aggressive braking of the bike prior to an upcoming corner, is something I've now learned to avoid at all costs!
- Aggressive braking makes the back of the bike feel like it's gonna come around on me
- or -
- it feels like the frame is flexing in the middle
- or -
- it feels like the front end is gonna buckle out from under me.
------------------------
- This has got to be the scariest bike I've ever ridden over loose gravel.
- I have to tip toe over pea size gravel in the road, because the whole bike feels like it's shifting to the left & right under me (?!?).
- My front-end feels like it's gonna go right out from under me with no warning when I'm tip toe'ing through gravel-covered hard surfaces.
------------------------

I arrived home this afternoon wanting to sell my Bandit. It's a splendid engine, but I'm left to wonder if simple (EXPENSIVE) suspension upgrades would be enough?
Would SS brake lines and the resulting bleeding of the system improve what I've experienced with my front brake lever ('stacking')?
If I stuck full bags on the bike, returned some less aggressive handlebars to the equation, would I mellow out and not ride the machine beyond it's capabilities?
------------------------

I'll mention the "stacking" to the dealer, ask if he can check my brake line system, and hope it's simply a glitch that can be addressed. But at this juncture, I'm left to wonder how long I keep this Suzuki before considering my options.

Stainless brake lines as a minimum, should eliminate spongy feel.

You may as well sell it and get a go fast 1000. Seems like you want more than what the stock Bandit is about. A Gxer won't have the bandit's torque down low, but bang a couple gears down and HANG ON!!!!!
I find my 1250S way better in loose gravel than my DL1000 was. Real close to my R1150GS. I had the fine chance of having to do about 5 miles on fresh limestone. The absolute worst surface to have to aim a bike through. But gotta be on the pegs, but that was the same as the others I've had. Guess my old KLR 650 was the best in loose gravel. Of course I end up on gravel roads for a bit about everyday down here in South Louisiana so I'm kinda use to the bikes dancing a bit under me.

Fittysom'n:

It is about time you came to your senses! I would still highly suggest that you find someone with a "generation 1" FZ1 (Yamaha) and try to make a trade... you should probably look for a Fizzie with a few miles on it so that the brakes are broken in and all of the other parts are well tested.

It could also help that since you seem to enjoy getting up into the more elevated velocities, that your new machine be in the 'let me go gray' color scheme as they don't draw sharp attention while just setting there, stay away from the bright colors!!

Now I think you know of one such well tested machine and you might find the owner willing to make such a trade, just bring your pink slip...


Let's RIDE!
ButtHead

Fittysom'n said:

Was it me, or the bike?
I may have to rethink my purchase of an '08 Bandit 1250 w/ABS....
- or -
heavily modify the suspension, make a bagger of it, and behave,
- or -
take it in for warranty work (likely nothing 'wrong' with it though),
- or -
grow up & slow down,
- or -
sell it.
QUOTE]

Click to expand...

What is this "stacking" that you mention? It's not a term I'm familiar with.

The Bandit's brakes aren't the best but if you pull hard enough on the front brake of course you'll get weight transfer off the back wheel which will make the back feel as if it wants to come around. If you don't like it, don't brake so hard. It's not a fault of the bike - it's the way it's being ridden.

So it doesn't ride well on gravel? Well, it's a road bike on road tyres. If you want to ride on gravel get a KTM.

The Bandit is a budget street bike. If you want to out-ride its abilities and design then either you're on the wrong bike, you need to spend money on it to make it do what you want, or you need to improve your riding technique.

You should go on an advanced riding course (possibly on track) to learn how to brake properly. Aggressive braking will cause problems on any bike, particularly one with budget suspension. Learn to brake smoothly and things won't get out of shape but you'll stop at least as quickly. Sorry if I sound as if I'm preaching here but you say yourself that you're not an accomplished rider and that you've never been to a class. If you want to ride fast I'd recommend getting training before your 'aggressive braking' and 'sudden stabs at the brake lever' earns you an appointment with the scenery or another road user. Riding fast is about being smooth, not being aggressive. Smooth riding will also ask less of the suspension, improve your control in all conditions and therefore improve safety.

Of all your complaints about the bike only the one about the brakes being a bit weak is valid IMO - the rest is someone riding badly (sorry, I just call it as I see it) beyond their and the machine's capabilities. By all means sell the Bandit if it doesn't do what you want but please, before you go and kill yourself on a 1000cc sports bike as a result of 'aggressive braking', get some advanced training.

If I've made any incorrect assumptions here then I'm sorry, but your post scares me.

Sproggy,

I've ridden with Fittysom'n a bit and can attest to his riding abilities. As any decent rider knows (or finds out real quick), we all have the capacity to be better and your suggested route of some advanced riding classes is well made to any of us and I've been trying to get Fittysom'n to one for quite a while. But, even without such training I know Fittysom'n as a pretty good rider. He is a bit fickle, changing machinery about as often as anyone I know, but he seems to be able to tune up a bike to his liking. I think what he was going on about with the Bandit was what he perceives as it's shortcomings in the braking area. His personal braking abilities are of the very smooth, experienced type. I also believe that his mention of how the Bandit's brakes and the 'problems' he is encountering are simply his way of pointing out what he perceives is wrong and maybe looking for an answer (like going to braided lines and some aftermarket pads?)...

Not knowing Fittysom'n might lead you to your assumption based on his post, but trust me, he can RIDE!

Later,
ButtHead

sproggy said:

You should go on an advanced riding course (possibly on track) to learn how to brake properly. Aggressive braking will cause problems on any bike, particularly one with budget suspension. Learn to brake smoothly and things won't get out of shape but you'll stop at least as quickly. Sorry if I sound as if I'm preaching here but you say yourself that you're not an accomplished rider and that you've never been to a class. If you want to ride fast I'd recommend getting training before your 'aggressive braking' and 'sudden stabs at the brake lever' earns you an appointment with the scenery or another road user. Riding fast is about being smooth, not being aggressive. Smooth riding will also ask less of the suspension, improve your control in all conditions and therefore improve safety...


If I've made any incorrect assumptions here then I'm sorry, but your post scares me.[/QUOTE]

Click to expand...

Expecting a Bandit to perform as a GSXR or a R1 is probably unrealistic - regardless of what parts you upgrade or how much you spend on it.

As most reviews have stated, the Bandit is well balanced do-it-all kind of bike, but if you ride it as a sports-bike, it will put you in a 'very uncomfortable' and possibly dangerous position.

Don't get hurt my friend!!

Sounds like you do have some air in the lines. Most likely at the top of the line going over the fender. Flushing will help but replacing with steel braided and putting on some better pads will make your brakes feel fantastic. I used DP HH pads and they made a world of difference. The other problem is suspension. The front is undersprung and the rear lacks rebound damping. The result is too much front end dive and the bike wallows like a pig through the turns. This bike can be made to handle very well at high speeds but you'll have to spend some money. How about getting Holeshot's new shock and fork upgrade and giving us a review?

sproggy,
it's all good, your points are well taken and valid.

To further validate your point(s), the above posting "Butthead" is a fine example of how well 'smooth' works. He's got a SuperHawk V-twin in the garage with +-98,000 miles on it, and a first generation FZ1 also closing in on 100,000 miles. I would suggest that he still has the OEM suspension on his Fizzy, but we worked out a trade for the OEM shock off my FZ1 about +-50,000 miles ago. He weighs more than what the suspension is best at, and that's a heck of a lot of miles for factory stuff!
BUT HE'S SMOOOOOTH......
When I get on his bike, the thing wallows all over the place when I try to ease her into a sweeper, not so when the bike is under Butthead. He's been to a few track days, received some instruction from pro's, and has every desire in the world to return from our 250 - 450 mile rides to his family and business unscathed. And though I appreciate his coming to my defense, I ain't all that. Besides, I have nobody to take care of me if I get hurt; I can't afford a brain fart on the bike (unless my cats have since grown opposable thumbs and learned how to cook).

"Stacking"
You know how pumping the brake pedal on an old car with air in the lines decreases pedal travel with every pump, 'stacking' with every pump more tension without having to press the pedal down as far.... and getting a solid feel under foot? I've always been aware of this on my front brake lever since my first ride home that evening. Subtle, VERY subtle, but there none-the-less. It hasn't gotten any worst (well, maybe a little), but it's annoying.

Then there was that day on a goat trail that I decided to test my ABS. One's reaction (self-trained response) to a lock-up, is to release the brake and activate it immediately again (pumping the brake). A couple times my front brake lever under aggressive braking ABS conditions, stacked on itself to the point of NO LEVER TRAVEL when I stabbed the brake lever. I know, you're not supposed to 'stab at' the brakes, and under ABS conditions you're supposed to STAAAAY on the brakes and let the computerized ABS do it's job. I know, I know; old habits are hard to break/brake. But it was, and still IS (during yesterday's ride) disconcerting for the brake lever to stack like that.

AXEL,
Yes..... the factory suspension could use REPLACEMENT all-together. Yes, the factory's front suspension is NOT matched to the rear suspension. The Bandit is a heavy bike. And no.... I'm not a smooth rider, try as I may to be.

Believe me guys, I'm NOT trying to be a wannabe Gixxer rider, I don't want to go any faster, and I like, I LOVE.... low-end torque! But dammit, a $u$pen$ion upgrade is gonna be expensive and SS brake lines ain't cheap, but I haven't had a bike that (mis)behaves like this outa the box.

What am I gonna do?
I'll be bolting/screwing down/securing my OEM handlebars to the fat edge of my work bench, taking a 4' long piece of pipe and bending the grip angle to my liking. Gen Mar claims that my 1" up/1" back bar-backs will work with the factory handlebars and ABS hoses & brake lines. I don't see it, but I'll try it. This will return me to a more neutral seating position ("sit up and beg"), and might arrest either (some of ) my bad habits and/or slow me down. Hard bags will be going on someday, perhaps that'll remind me that I'm an old man.... and slow me down. I'm under the impression that a good suspension will prevent my bad habits in the saddle to telegraph themselves to the bike and tarmac beneath me.... it DID on my FZ1 when I upgraded to pogos to single rate springs suitable for my weight & bags. I want Holeshot's shock, Holeshot's fork brace, and something done with that front end. And I really should seek out some instruction via track days or CLASS, and........
to slow down.

I would try bleeding your brakes first, just a few bucks and a little time, sure sounds like it may have some air in the lines, I have also heard that ABS makes the brakes feel a little spongy, not sure if this is actually true, I have never road a bike with it.

Fittysom'n said:

sproggy,
it's all good, your points are well taken and valid.

Click to expand...

I'm glad you didn't take offense - none was intended.

Fittysom'n said:

"Stacking"
You know how pumping the brake pedal on an old car with air in the lines decreases pedal travel with every pump, 'stacking' with every pump more tension without having to press the pedal down as far.... and getting a solid feel under foot? I've always been aware of this on my front brake lever since my first ride home that evening. Subtle, VERY subtle, but there none-the-less. It hasn't gotten any worst (well, maybe a little), but it's annoying.

Click to expand...

Ah, I know what you mean. I don't think we have a word for it over here. Well my front brakes don't 'pump up' in the way you describe and they're factory standard down to the pads (although I have some HH pads ready to fit - I'll be interested to see how much difference they make) so it sounds as if your bike does have a problem. It's conceivable that air in the system might make the ABS behave strangely too - I'm not sure.

Fittysom'n said:

But dammit, a $u$pen$ion upgrade is gonna be expensive and SS brake lines ain't cheap, but I haven't had a bike that (mis)behaves like this outa the box.

What am I gonna do?

Click to expand...

The Bandit is a cheap (budget) bike. This means that you can spend some money fixing the things you don't like (suspension, seat etc) and still not have paid as much money in total as you might for a nominally similar bike from another manufacturer which still wouldn't be 'perfect' for you. Or even from the same manufacturer - look how much the B-King costs! Plus this approach allows us to do what we love - tinker with bikes.

Fittysom'n said:

This will return me to a more neutral seating position ("sit up and beg"), and might arrest either (some of ) my bad habits and/or slow me down. Hard bags will be going on someday, perhaps that'll remind me that I'm an old man.... and slow me down.

Click to expand...

Don't bet on it I bought an Electra Glide thinking it would slow me down. It didn't - it just frustrated me while I ground expansive lumps of metal off it on nearly every corner, riding it far faster than it was designed to be ridden. A sit up and beg riding position might slow you down in a straight line cruise but neither that nor hard bags are likely to slow you down in the twisties. Ask me how I know.....

"A sit up and beg riding position might slow you down in a straight line cruise but neither that nor hard bags are likely to slow you down in the twisties."

Yeah, if/when 'Butthead' reads this.... he'll laugh in my face,
as I made the same claim when I sold my Sprint RS eventually replacing it with a "slower" '05 60hp Bonneville.

I just got off the phone with the dealer. He suggested that I/they can check the fluid for evidence of moisture or particulate. But more importantly, a couple things to consider:
1) "Suzuki's ABS brakes are going to feel different" especially given as how I just got off an '03 Yamaha FZ1; those brakes are GREAT!

2) This "stacking" that I'm describing might just be a characteristic of the ABS.... but a servicing of the brakes might be in order here.

3) I may have been getting the brake fluid too hot on yesterday's ride. Remember, I was riding such that I was getting 32 mpg when normally my bike returns me 39-42 mpg. It was suggested that I might want to do a complete flush and replace the brake fluid with something better than factory, something like Repsol DOT 4.
----------------------------

I just wrote Dale at Holeshot and asked about his new $600 rear shock
I asked if I could get away with just the shock alone (we know the answer to that), or what (at least) I should do to the front end to marry it to the new rear shock absorber.

(hmmph, and I intend(ed?) to pay off some bills with my tax return...)
I've gone all morning without eating, I better go eat now.

I have never had my Bandit at the extremes you've mentioned, so I don't have the perspective needed to comment on the situations you've described. My only take on it is that while I wouldn't call the Bandit a "budget" bike (even if it is a steal at its price), it most definately is a Jack-of-all-Trades machine (master of none). It does everything "pretty well", but it doesn't have the agility of a pure sportbike or the footing of a dual-sport. If money weren't an object, I'd just say get a few different purpose-built bikes for your different interests.

I am, however, very interested to find out what the prognosis is on the brakes, and what you end up doing with the suspension. I love a good project. Keep us posted!

Fittysom'n said:

2) This "stacking" that I'm describing might just be a characteristic of the ABS.... but a servicing of the brakes might be in order here.

Click to expand...

Absolutely not - I have ABS brakes on my Bandit and it doesn't cause the symptoms you describe. Squeeze the brake lever once or squeeze it 20 times, the feel is the same. Your "stacking" is not a characteristic of the system. Unless you trigger the ABS it feels like a normal brake system.

Fittysom'n said:

3) I may have been getting the brake fluid too hot on yesterday's ride. Remember, I was riding such that I was getting 32 mpg when normally my bike returns me 39-42 mpg. It was suggested that I might want to do a complete flush and replace the brake fluid with something better than factory, something like Repsol DOT 4.

Click to expand...

DOT4 is standard specification fluid for the street. It copes with hard track riding on 1000cc sports bikes and there's no way you're going to be getting that much heat into the Bandit's brakes on the road however hard you ride.

If the brake performance was suffering because of heat it won't be the fluid itself, but could be as a result of moisture in it (brake fluid absorbs moisture from the atmosphere. Brake fluid doesn't boil, but water does and this can cause loss of braking and the lever coming back to the bars as the moisture becomes vapour as it boils) but in any case you'll need to flush the system and change the fluid. The pads could also be the cause of problems and if you like to ride hard, changing them for something better could improve performance, consistency and feel.

I would have to aggree about the brakes. I too am looking at the HH pads. I will say that a rear shock replacement has done wonders for the bikes handling and that with the engine mods that I have done it will run over 150 all day long with ease.

I do know that this is not a sport bike nor will it run down a liter bike. I have a friend with an 08 CBR1000RR and that bike is very fast. What I can say is that that bike is not in its element on the road i.e. any bumps or rough road will slow it down fast. I have seen Jason get bumped off his seat while on the road while I soak up the bumps and keep accelerating (Ohilns shock is a god send). I dout that you can get the bike you want with out spending lots of money. FZ1's are about 2K more for a stock bike and I have spend about 2K on the motor and exhust and I have a beast of a street bike. Hope you find your way.

Mark

MmMmm, lunch at Guisti's on the Delta.
Soup & bread to start, 1/2 liter of red wine arrives before I can order, pasta with (good!) pesto and chicken breast atop. And all this for twelve bucks.... life is good!
--------------------------------------
My email answered by Dale of Holeshot:

"I will have the front fork info coming in a couple weeks, best to send the forks to Rick and Cogent once i have the parts all ready. He does some internal changes as well as our own valving & so on. Best to call and get your rear shock with the heavy spring on order soon (please).

I just let guys know last night and I will need to get a few guys lined up, since I need to build a half dozen minimum to get the good price. (Thus) how I can make this nice (of a) shock for $595 retail.

Front bake lines, Ferodo pads and my fork brace will help a ton also"
---------------------------------------

Be responsible and pay down some bills, or buy an expensive shock?
What to do, what to do.

As I was out riding today I thought of something else Fitty, when I first got my Bandit and got adjusted to how it turns I was shocked how it wallowed through the corners. I was shocked on how much it flexed when put to the test. I then got a fork brace and the bike now does much better. For $150, I feel that it is well money spent. You might look into a fork brace if you want to push it through the corners. I got mine through Dale but I'm sure there are other braces out there.

Mark

pesto_boy said:

Expecting a Bandit to perform as a GSXR or a R1 is probably unrealistic - regardless of what parts you upgrade or how much you spend on it.

As most reviews have stated, the Bandit is well balanced do-it-all kind of bike, but if you ride it as a sports-bike, it will put you in a 'very uncomfortable' and possibly dangerous position.

Don't get hurt my friend!!

Click to expand...

+1

Sell the Bandit and go get yourself an RR. It sounds like that's what you want and are expecting to get from the Bandit. And it ain't gonna happen.

My problems with wallowing are usually the result of stiff-arming the handlebars. If I scoot toward the front of my saddle, settle into place, flap and bend my arms to relax, then use a little body english to set up a turn, smoothly counter-steering while looking through the corner (I sometimes tell myself, "point yer chin"), I can reduce my wallowing. I actually LIKE the way the bike handles for the most part.

The wallowing I feel on the Bandit is during very aggressive braking, almost as if the frame is flexing (though I know it's not). I remember thinking that I shoulda loosened the pinch bolts on my tubes, loosen the axle nut, and bump the front wheel into a wall to settle stuff before tightening everything down. I forgot to do that when I replaced the front tire..... Or that the damping up front is over-kill for the soft rear shock, almost lifting the rear tire upon braking.... Or that I'm not "settling" the rear enough before grabbing a hand full of front brake.... Or that I don't know what the heck I'm doing.

I fully plan to buy Dale's fork brace, but I think I should first service the brakes, consider HH pads, spring for his shock someday, and then do the front tubes/springs/valving.

------------------------------------------------

I've already been out in the garage bending the OEM handlebars forward, taking my GSX650F handlebars off, removing the GenMar bar-backs, and returning the factory handlebars to the bike. Feels good, looks good, decided that the GenMars wouldn't work with the factory lines, and then it started to rain..... haven't taken the bike out for a test ride yet. But the new wrist angle feels goooood (in the comfort of the garage). We'll see.... might be some handlebars and barbacks for up for grabs soon.

sproggy said:

If the brake performance was suffering because of heat it won't be the fluid itself, but could be as a result of moisture in it (brake fluid absorbs moisture from the atmosphere. Brake fluid doesn't boil, but water does and this can cause loss of braking and the lever coming back to the bars as the moisture becomes vapour as it boils) but in any case you'll need to flush the system and change the fluid.

Click to expand...

Yes yes. This is why brake fluid should be changed often. There's also a good chance your brakes weren't properly bleed from the factory. Before I bought the lines and pads I did a thorough bleeding and it made a noticeable improvement.

I wonder if what I've felt a few times is what you're referring to as 'stacking'...

If I'm HARD on the throttle and then grab TOO MUCH brake, the lever/pedal feels really strange.

This isn't normal riding, this is me being incredibly UN-smooth, but maybe you've got the skills/balls to push it that hard with some control... It's almost like the ABS ECU gets confused reading the wheel speed sensors and assumes a lockup with the sudden change.

The few times this has happened has been if I lose the rear tire in a slow speed corner (gravel, dirt, etc) or something else extreme. It's never upsets the bike really, just a strange feeling that I know is due to the ABS because it feels exactly like it does when intentionally engage it.

trey

Saw a HD XR1200 today on the ride. Bike was down on power and did not corner very well (I first thought was the rider, untill he tried to pass some cars). Thought I remember that you were talking about this bike. If your bandit is not suiting your needs, the XR 1200 will really let you down.

Mark

I likes my bikes, and I appreciate them for what they are.

I really Really REALLY liked my 2000 XL1200'S'....."down in power" (compared to a Japanese liter machine), "did not corner well" (compared to a 'real' sport bike), and a "girl's bike" (according to black leather-wearing dentists on $18,000 Softails).
My Sporty, vastly inferior to the new XR1200:
http://www.triumphrat.net/photogall...FattRat-2004-RS/Bikes-of-my-past/aaj.jpg.html

I simply like to discover and exploit that which makes a machine unique.

What with everybody's feedback expressed in this thread, I plan now to show just how capable a machine the 1250 Bandit is. And the Bandit IS indeed fully capable. It was best expressed as a 'value', a "budget bike", something to be molded into that which a rider wants out of it.

Sometimes you jus' gotta take the bike to it's limits to discover it's potential. With a freshly serviced brake system, better brake pads, and the cheap stuff Suzuki calls "suspension" replaced..... I'll put hard bags on the bike, sit comfortably upright, and party on the backroads through the canyons of California with ease.

http://www.triumphrat.net/photogallery/v/member/album789/FattRat-2004-RS/Bikes-of-my-past/
I likes bikes!

I will say that the XR1200 looked nice with it's twin side pipes and for a naked american sport bike is sounded nice as well. I followed this guy into the first corner and he did well (sweeper at about 70mph) he was able to lean it in well (roads are still cold and my new tires still have about an inch of chicked in them). I am not able to push the bike in the corners due to cold roads and thought that I would ride with this guy for a while. We came up on some cars going 45 or so and I passed with ease and this guy had issues speeding up around them. I made it to texas creek and on my way back I passed him going the other way few miles beyond Echo. I was at about 60% of normal speed. I do not mean to offend but I'm not sure how much hp this bike has or it's weight. However, I am sure that it costs more then the bandit. Oh and by the way I did not think of this bike as a 'girls' bike.

Mark

mi1lertm said:

I do not mean to offend but I'm not sure how much hp this bike has or it's weight. However, I am sure that it costs more then the bandit.

Click to expand...

562lbs dry (253kg) - a fair bit heavier than the Bandit - with around 90bhp. And in the UK (I realise the difference might be less in the US) it's £7,655 against the Bandit's RRP of £5,549.

But the power figures don't reflect the differences between a super-smooth, 16v inline 4 and a wheezing, shaking 4 valve twin. The XR1200 hasn't had good road test reviews over here.