Off-Road riding rights/issues in Angelina Forest

[Earthpilot]

Off-Road riding rights in Angelina Forest
Many of us ride off-road on a consistent basis and over the years
we continue to see our available off-road riding areas decline due to
clear cutting forests, environmentalists, people that trash and shoot
up the forests etc.
I have been riding the Angelina forest in Northeast Texas since the
early 80's and have seen this huge area being reduced year by year to
a point where they now want to shut down the entire forest to all off-
road vehicles.
We have called a meeeting with the National Forest Service, and they
have offered to come to Houston this Thursday evening and discuss the
options ( if any ) to save this area for off road recreation.
Those of you with interest in off-road riding ( bikes, ATV's) on ANY
government land in the USA would benefit from attending this meeting
if your schedule and location permits.
Meeting place is TC Jester / I-10 Area in Houston


Angelina N.F.S. will be in Houston this Thursday (May 19 ) Lodge,
5508 Nolda, Hou, Tx. 77008 713-862-6291 at 7:00 PM to discuss the
future of off roading at Angelina. We want as many people as possible
to show up.
This is the TRH meeting lodge.

[Tourmeister]

:tab For those that cannot make it to meeting, is there an email address where they can send a message voicing their displeasure over the closures?

Adios,

[Earthpilot]

Here is the contact we have met with several times and continue to correspond with :

Angelina National Forest
111 Walnut Ridge Road
Zavalla, Texas 75980

Attn: Karen Tinkle - District Ranger

This is a NFS link to the Angelina meeting, along with numerous other resources for any area.

http://www.fs.fed.us/r8/texas/

Several of us actually spent last Thursday in a FEDERAL court in Lufkin Texas regarding tickets and issues with Angelina Forest - not to be vindictive but there is one particular ranger there who hates OHV's /Bikes/ ATV's etc and has made a personal vendetta to make life miserable for anyone who rides there - thus driving away everyone in his own little game. The management of this forest is totally different than our "local" Sam Houston Forest , they have been very unwilling to work with off-roader - Hopefully some good rapport will develope from this meeting and I will post the results Friday.

Thanks in advance for anyone that participates in helping this cause with attendance or correspondance.

[Tourmeister]

I'll bet this was the same ranger that tagged Steve "Cruzintexas" & Rita this weekend!! He said they were going 82 in a 70 and their GPS said they were doing 75. The ranger would not hear it and wrote the ticket.

Adios,

[Earthpilot]

There is one particular ranger there that hates bikes & ATV's -
They had another range lose his life last year when he rolled an ATV
in the "tram" area and was allegedly not wearing a helmet -

I know the ranger, Jimmy Freeman, has a passion against ORV's. I don't know why. I'm guessing it's the East Texas bubba boys with coolers on their ATV"S doing donuts w/no helmets and running from him. They say that they closed it because of environmental reasons but I don't think it has been studied or the findings reported truthfully. Freeman has been there for 29 years now and finally has the public run off. I guess it makes his job much easier not having to police the public. They also claim they want a "safe" riding area that will be a "family type place" that kids can use without seeing all the beer drinkers on ATV's.

Going from the original 300 or so miles of trails back in 1996 to less then half with the first closure in 1997. Then in 1999 they added around 90 closures inside of the remaining area and Jimmy went wild writing tickets to the uninformed public. They claim that you can't get within 100 feet of ANY stream weather there is water IN IT OR NOT. I don't believe that's how the SMZ (streamside management) law is written. I asked them in court if they knew of the different classifications of streams and that all are not closed. They replied; THEY ARE ALL CLOSED!!! Since the place is riddled with small streams you can be ticketed anytime you come to cross a road b y simply stated; there is a stream back there you must have crossed, here's your ticket!! ($150.00 is where they start now)

We also went to court last week in Lufkin on a stream crossing ticket from Jimmy. 8 were there, 7 ticketed, 4sent notices to appear in court, and the remaining three had warrants placed on them. We were all stopped hanging out in an open area when he came racing up in his SUV, got out and asked me which way we came to that spot. I was vague and he started writing tickets. In court under oath he stated many times that he was standing in the trail and personally watched us come through the stream. "Perjury" is the term. I've ordered copies of the court transcript and I'm on the fence weather or not to report him the US attorney.

[Tourmeister]

Report him. If he is willing to perjure his testimony, he does not deserve to wear the uniform. Like all the rest of us, he is obligated to tell the truth despite his personal feelings.

Yet, despite this one ranger, there has to be someone behind the push for this. I cannot believe it is just one or two people. Who is making the closure decisions and who is pressuring them to do so? What is the history here?

Adios,

[Cruzintexas]

I can't read the name of the officer that wrote me. He was a [expletive removed]! I have already made my deal with the Judge for defered adjudication. I now understand what happened a little more.
Steve

[Hoop]

History from my point of view.

The previous district ranger was an entrenched bureaucrat who had a green streak. He's still in the Forest Service, in a different job, still in Texas. The FS was getting pressure from the Sierra Club of Texas to protect endangered species, such as the red cockaded woodpecker (RCW), along with some plants, snakes, etc. In the early 90's, the Sierra Club had the FS tied up with lawsuits and threats of lawsuits, and basically had them running scared.

In the mid-90's, some jeep clubs in the area got more active and started using the Angelina NF for recreation. Like any group, there were some bad apples, and the bad apples really went bad in this case. They did a lot of damage in a few months to the bike/ATV trails that had been in existence since the early 60's. The district ranger chose NOT to ban just the jeeps, although this had already been done in Sam Houston National Forest and in Louisiana NF's. Their solution was to ban all motorized use south of hiway 63, which was the heart of the riding area.

Sam Houston and Louisiana NF's already had designated trail systems. So, the FS hired SFA University (Mike Legg) to do a trail inventory, and make recommendations for which trails could be made into a designated trail system. The process got cut short when the Forest Service decided to close everything south of hiway 63, I think this happened around 1997 or 1998. The jeeps also finally got banned from the remaining open-use area north of hiway 63.

The dirt bike and ATV crowd moved to a new trailhead on the north side of the hiway, and things seemed to be moving in a good direction for a while. Mike Legg marked a trail system, and the Forest Service made noise about approving this as a designated trail, and closing the rest of the existing trails. Somewhere along the way, the Sierra Club got involved again, and decided that they needed to yank the Forest Service's chain again. So they start closing off a lot of areas such as the Cliffs area along the lakeshore, the Waterfall area, and some boggy areas.

Around 1999 or 2000, the Forest Service and Mike Legg came up with the idea of providing a designated trail on the north side of Lake Rayburn, near the Harvey Creek campground, east of Broaddus, Tx. Harvey Creek campground and boat ramp don't get a lot of use, there seemed to be fewer conflicts with endangered species, and the locals there seemed to be in favor of anything that looked like tourism. In the beginning, the idea was that there would be a designated trail system near Harvey Creek, and at some point they would consider restricting motorized use on the south side of the lake.

I don't remember what year, but at some point, the Forest Service decided they needed to go ahead with a full closure of the south side, and began taking public comments. I don't know all the details, but my understanding is the the Blue Ribbon Coalition's legal group pointed out that the Forest Service was not following proper procedures, and everything got put on hold for a few years. We (SETORR) stopped volunteering for work on the Harvey Creek trails because we had a situation where we couldn't trust the Forest Service to deal with us openly and honestly. SFA continued working on the Harvey Creek trail system under contract with the FS. TMTC also got involved a few years ago, they met with the FS and signed a memorandum of understanding that said they would work together to develop and manage the Harvey Creek trail system.

Maybe 2003 or so, they implemented the 100' streamside management zone, which is a de facto closure, in my opinion. They have been writing tickets like mad since then. That brings us to today. As I understand it, the Forest Service in Washington is supposed to issue some guidelines about how the NF's are to be managed for motorized recreation. We have a new district ranger on the scene, and she seems interested in getting past the ORV issue by finishing the Harvey Creek trail system, and then closing everything south of the lake.

I guess that's it for the history lesson. A couple of comments about Jimmy Freeman. He has an anger management problem, which I don't think is healthy for any law enforcement officer. He has the ability to read minds, for example, he can tell you what your intent was before you even do something illegal. I've seen him so mad that he was turning red in the face, and I thought he was going to pull his gun, or pop a vein and have a stroke right there. I've overheard other FS law enforcement officers accuse him of harassing bikers, but they apparently do nothing about it. The good news is that he's about to retire. The bad news is that he's not really the problem, the problem is the streamside management zone definition that he's trying to enforce. I agree that he shouldn't be so rude to the public, his behavior is really uncalled for.

OK, enough already!

[Hoop]

OK, I forgot one thing. As the FS has started looking more closely at the proposed Harvey Creek trail system, they have found eagles nests on the points of land that stick out into the lake, so guess what, no trails allowed down to the points anymore. So, instead of the 50 miles we started with, we are now down to something less than 50. I am guessing they will find other problems, and it will be a struggle to place 50 miles of trails that don't have conflicts with some endangered species.

I asked at the Beaumont meeting if there was potential for expanding to 75 or 100 trail miles. Mike Legg said yes, Karen Tinkle (district ranger) said no. Hmmm.

[Tourmeister]

Thanks for the background info!

Karen Tinkle (district ranger) said no.

Typically, a beaureacrat cannot act on personal whim alone. They have to have something to justify their actions. Of course, that something can often be pretty flimsy. I wonder if her buttons are getting pushed behind the scenes?

Adios,

[Earthpilot]

Here is the update after our "meeting" with the Angelina NFS last Thursday night in Houston. Karen Tinkle ( District Ranger ) showed up with several assistants including three people from SFA university that are involved with land management issues in NE Texas. Basically they were evasive when answering our direct questions concerning the "current" riding areas in Angelina. They stated that the entire area has been deemed a "Heritage" area which means there can be no designated OHV trails or activity within the boundaries. They also stated that no trails even exist!
( they claim the 300 miles of trails already there do not exist since they are not official designated NFS trails ) They claim they can not provide or post any maps or information of the "non-exisiting trails , nor the 90 areas they have deemed "off limits" due to the "endangered woodpecker/eagle/ snake/ streams/ environmental " issues.
They have proposed a "new" designated riding area to be built in the Broaddus area , about 45 minutes NE of the current area. This area would be a dedicated OHV area with day use only. They have already surveyed
and mapped the trail system which would only be @45 miles. They also stated that it would be a minimum of 2+ years until the proposed area could be funded and approved by the NFS in Atlanta GA , the construction of the trails could begin which would require another 1-2 years + and would also require volunteers to complete. In the meantime they offer ZERO answers in regards to an interim "legal" riding area. Bottom line is that they are going to do everything they legally can to run OHV's out of Angelina. The "future" riding area reeks of a smokescreen to pacify our interests for now. There were some very bizzare statements made, especially from Diane Tinkle which I won't elaborate on here - I will just say there is something they are "not" saying or covering up.
It seems they plan on totally shutting down the "Parker Point / Plum Ridge"
area by the end of the year. They did not specifically state you can't ride there, they just said it "wasn't a good idea" which means it is legal as along as you keep within the boundaries / off limit areas they have marked.
We had legal counsel present , TMTC reps along with a AMA D37 ( from CA ) representative. All info given us has been forwared to the AMA , BRC for evaluation and future actions.
We will continue to pursue this issue and find the "real" story behind these fine government employees of the NFS.

[Tourmeister]

:tab Sounds like what I was thinking. The meeting was just a dog and pony show so they could say they met with everyone to "discuss" the issues and then they go and do what they were going to do all along. That kind of operating really rubs me wrong. If they are so sure of themselves and convinced of the rightness of their position, then they should be completely open and honest about what is going on. :angryfir:

Adios,

[scratch]

...If they are so sure of themselves and convinced of the rightness of their position, then they should be completely open and honest about what is going on. :angryfir:


That attitude can be explained with a single word: arrogance.

They're confident that they know better than everybody else, and assume the general public is too stupid to understand the "higher purpose" they have in mind, so they barely even try to use persuasion and argument to sell their case. In their way of thinking, trying to reach a mutually agreeable compromise or even simply discussing an opposing viewpoint is a waste of time. They've already made up their minds about what's going to happen.

Unfortunately, it sounds like you're headed towards a legal battle if you want to change this bleak scenario. But you should also try contacting your congressional representative who's house district this area falls into. If it laps over more than one district, then contact all of them. Be respectful about presenting your complaint, but be persistant. I don't really know, but a solution could be as simple as removing the funds from the Forrest Service budget to pay for the rangers in that particular district. Wouldn't that be sweet! ;-)

[Bagwell]

Yeah, Ranger Tinkle said a couple of times " I didnt want to go there" when referring to existing trails not being in the future plans and referring to something else which I dont remember right this second.

I thought, why wouldnt she want to go there? That after all is the reason we all came out to listen and discuss it. I get kinda fed up with that kind of attitude. I dont want to ruin habitat or kill endangered animals, but I DO want to ride the very nice part of that forest if I can. I feel like they could do a little more to accomodate both sides or whatever.

I kind of wonder who the "other side" consists of. Are there any groups involved, or is it just the forest service and the university etc?

I am interested in knowing more.

Vaughn

[2bd1]

Bump

I'm new to this area. Can someone bring this thread up to date? What has happened with the NFS? Any additional areas shut down/opened up? Did the nasty ranger retire yet?

Thanks.

[Hemibee]

http://www.sharetrails.org/alerts/index.cfm?mr=422

This is the latest I've been sent on this issue. Not sure if there is anything more current but if I find any I'll post it also.

Also, welcome to the site 2bd1.

[chiricahua]

Interesting Thread. I’m left confused. But I’m always like that.

Keep us posted as to what we can do to help. I saw the other links and I’m prolly gonna do some complaints via E-Mail.

[2bd1]

Thanks for the update Hemi. I was hoping for better news, but expecting the worst which seems to be the case.

Chiri- protest is good, but unfornately it is going to take more, a lot more.

Some background for you:

I recently moved to Texas after spending the last 20+ years in Southern California (midwesterner before that). I've been a motorcyclist most of my life, off-road racing for about 20 years, commuting by motorcycle exclusively for about the same amount of time. My entire professional career has been in the motorcycle industry so I'm probably a little more aware than most what the history is and what is at stake here.

Motorcyclists, and off roaders in particular face an enemy that is well organized, well funded, not afraid to distort the truth, and will not stop until 2 and 4 wheelers are gone from the earth. Step by step, bit by bit they have eroded our rights to operate and enjoy our chosen form of recreation.

That is why the BlueRibbon Coalition is in this fight. In spite of the "embarissing small" (their words) membership base here in Texas, BRC knows that what starts here can spread like wild fire to other areas of the country. That means that EVEN IF YOU DON'T RIDE IN ANGENLINA, YOU COULD LOSE THE RIGHT TO RIDE AT YOUR LOCAL AREA! BRC deserves the support of all Texans and I encourage everyone to join and support them, and also the American Motorcyclist Association, the only other entity fighting for our rights.

Don't think it matters because you ride on private land? Think again my friends. In just the last year or two there has been a fierce battle being waged for the right to ride on your own land! In Riverside County CA, the home of multi-time champion Jeremy McGrath and a mecca for off roaders, recent legislation was passed seriously restricting the use of off road vehicles on private property. The restrictions are so tight that it makes operation impossible on smaller parcels. That battle is still being waged, with McGrath at the front, and I believe it is still unresolved at this time. Private property rights are under assault by the "Greens" all around this country.

I see where it looks like Texas has recently started an off road vehicle sticker program that appears to be similar to California's "Green Sticker" program. STAY ALERT! If California is any indication, keep your eye on that money! Oh I'm sure the politicians have promised you new and/or upgrading riding opportunities, and we just might get a little of that. But don't hold your breath. Just like in California, open riding areas will continue to be restricted or reduced in size, and once that pot of money gets big the politicians will find it irresistable to begin raiding it for their own non-riding projects.

My point is, none of us can afford to be complacent by thinking that "this is happening to the other guy" or "it won't happen here" or "that's an off-road thing and I'm a street rider". Get envolved, follow what is happening, donate time and/or money, because you will increasingly pay more to get less, and once you lose your right to ride, you will not get it back!

When in doubt, twist that throttle!

[chiricahua]

2bd1, thanks for that info. I have just recently moved here from Riverside, Ca. I have experienced those closures first hand for years now.
And you are absolutely correct that we as riders have to help keep off road areas open. Writing letters helps tremendously.

I was shocked at the limited areas that a state the size of Texas had designated for OHV use. Southern Cali has so many designated OHV parks and many not legal areas but has recently come under fire from the Bureau of Land Management BLM.

Southern Cali has grown so rapidly in the last ten years that rural riding areas have been leveled for homes. MX tracks that were far from civilization are now coming under fire for noise violations because the tracks are now in the middle of neighborhoods.

And Jeremy’s battle first started at his parent’s house, which is right next to the 215 freeway. So he bought some private land off in the sticks and his new neighbors complained. So now he has to hold off riding on his own land.

It’s amazing that this is even happening in a state the size of Texas. Just boggles my mind.

[fastmonstr]

I just joined the BRC.

Thanks for the update.

http://sharetrails.org/index.cfm?page=1