"Press right, lean right, go right"... Am I???

[grendal]

A question for you vets...

Okay, I guess I really don't understand countersteering. I don't even know if I'm doing it. I did pass MSF with no issues, but I wonder if I'm just man-handling the bike?... I swerved, I turned, but did I really countersteer?... Me and the bike have similar weight, so it is conceivable that I'm just leaning and man-handling it with my own weight (I'm over 300). I don't think I'm countersteering.

I don't feel like I'm "pressing" at all. I feel like I'm leaning and PULLING on the handlebars to turn the front in the direction of the turn.

Anyone have any advice or good reading for me? I want to feel confident in this before I venture beyond my neighborhood.

Thanks,

Michael

[mlinkibikr]

Sounds strange until you try it.

Find a nice long straight farm road with no traffic. At about 30 mph, gently push on your left handlebar. Just a bit - you'll feel the entire bike move into that direction. If you could find a big enough parking lot you could try it there - it's a standard piece of training in the advanced rider class that the MSF puts on.

An advanced drill that I do is a "quick avoidance maneuver". On same farm road I practice quick snap turns - the kind you might need if a piece of ladder or something suddenly appears in your path. I push left - hard, then right hard . Sometimes it's fun to do them in series, setting up a quick series of slalom turns just to keep in shape. I use the road stripes as "gates" and really get the big old bike moving around.

Countersteering will save your bacon if you go too fast into a decreasing radius turn and have to tighten up mid corner. Simply dial in a little more handlebar and you're good to go.

There's a lot of physics involved in the "why" it works, but you'll never understand it until you actually try it. There is also a school of thought that teaches to use "body steering" - press your knee into the tank. But that's for another discussion - go check out the counter steering and you'll be well on your way to more precise bike control.

Dave.

[Squeaky]

How about this - find a nice open stretch of road (or parking lot) and get into second gear at a comfy pace. Take one hand off the bars (the left, of course) and slowly push away from you with the right. The bike should start to veer right. Now pull the right bar towards you - you should start to veer left.

When I first started, the big mistake I was making was that I was pushing DOWN on the bars. The right way to do it is to push them AWAY from you instead. I was just hurting my wrists for nothing when I was a newbie...

[Squeaky]

Ok, so we both typed it at the same time...

[StoneTriple]

A question for you vets...

Okay, I guess I really don't understand countersteering. I don't even know if I'm doing it.

You're doing it whether you feel it or not. It's impossible to turn or corner a bike without countersteering. I'll try to find some articles on the Keith Code "No BS Bike" (no Body Steer). It's a bike with a second set of handlebars mounted to the frame. The bike won't turn if you're holding onto them and shifting your weight. You have to countersteer a bike to turn. It's just hard to feel or sense the input when you're going real slow. At speed, however, the effect is immediate and very noticable.

[grendal]

So it is possible that I'm just leaning and pulling the bike with my weight now? I really don't know how I'm doing it, but I don't feel confident or fast when it comes to direction changes.

Edit: ok, so it's not possible. I guess I need to learn to do it consciously. I'm afraid to practice swerving too far, because I'm afraid I'll bite it.

-Michael

[grendal]

It's just hard to feel or sense the input when you're going real slow. At speed, however, the effect is immediate and very noticable.

This could be why I'm not feeling it. I'm taking slow curves.... well below 20mph. I guess I'm gonna have to venture out of the neighborhood. The limit here is 20 and I've stretched it to 30 and 40 on straightaways, but I can't take a residential curve at that speed (because I try to avoid stupidity).

Any more words of wisdom?....

-Michael

[Squeaky]

Any more words of wisdom?....

A really BIG parking lot! :lol:

[PassTheGravy]

Find a safe place, an empty parking lot on a Sunday afternoon, just someplace you can get up to 20 - 30 mph, and just do what the others have suggested. I.e., go straight, and then VERY lightly push either the left or right grip. You'll feel the bike begin to lean. You can't do this effectively a 10mph, and that may be part of your problem.

[bushwhacker]

This is the same post I put under your other thread. This is the best advice I can give and this is still an excellent Article on CounterSteering.

http://www.msgroup.org/TIP048.html

When I first started riding I was coming around 610 over 290 where it changes from the North Loop to the West Loop.

I had taken the MSF and they had discussed counter-steering but I just did not understand it. It made no sense to me and I certainly did not practice it on the street.

This is a long sweeping curve that I could now easily take at 75 mph today, but that was not the case then. I just could not get bike to go around the curve. I had slowed to probably 40 mph or less and had drifted close enough to an 18 wheeler that I could have leaned over and kissed it on the cheek. Somehow I made it around this curve without being 18 wheel fodder. I do not know how. But I knew I had to learn what I was supposed to be doing if I was going to survive on a motorcycle.

I went home and started doing research on going around curves on a motorcycle. What I learned was that leaning your body doesn't do nearly as much getting your bike around a curve as counter steering does.

To test this, you can hang your entire body weight off your bike to the right and easily go around a left turn simply by counter steering,

Once I embraced this concept - I still do not fully understand how it works, but it works!!! - cornering actually became easy and fun instead of a nerve-wracking experience.

I would get on lightly traveled 4 lane roads and just ride up and down the road at about 35-40 mph changing lanes using nothing but slight pressure on the handle bars - Push right go right - Push left go left. It works.

But, if you want to use it effectively, not only for everyday driving, but for quickly getting out of those sticky situations (such as when that car changes into your lane with no warning and going 15 mph slower than you) you have to go out and practice, practice, practice.

You have to practice so much that counter-steering, especially in emergency situations, becomes second nature and you do it without thinking about it. It has saved my butt more than once. I can think of several occasions when, without countersteering as an immediate reaction to the situation, I would most likely have been run over.

[Gilk51]

20 mph is enough to use it. You may be doing it but not realizing it.

Do what Squeaky said - straight at 20 mph and press the left (or right) bar away from you (I actually press down as well). DON'T move your body at all - just press the bar. The bike will respond quickly.

I'll take a quick stab at the physics - pressing the bar turns the front wheel in the opposite direction than you would at a stand-still (thus, counter-steering) but this causes the tire to bite into the road on the frontward-moving side, causing a moment (rotation) in the direction of the bite. This is the decreasing radius on the bike's tire which causes it to lean and balance the force/rotation. When the bike leans, it changes direction and matches the lean with the press.

It happens very quickly - you should not have time to move your body, just the bar press is enough. Another equal press on the other bar and you are going in your original direction but you just "jogged" a foot or so in the direction of the first press:

^
| left handle bar press
/
/
^ right handle bar press
|
start

Maybe that will help. Just go try it!

[bushwhacker]

More articles. I can not emphasize enough how necessary this skill is and how important it is to practice.

More good articles

http://www.obairlann.net/~reaper/motorcycle/beginner/countersteering.html

http://www.2wf.com/articles/stories/AB44B4F1-B8AF-440C-911D-3B3744371990.asp

http://www.motorcyclecruiser.com/streetsurvival/zig/

-

[Sleepy Weasel]

While I'm happy to admit that countersteering is the quickest, most effective way to steer at speed, anybody who says it's impossible to turn a bike without it has spent too much time reading and too little time field testing.

When I took the MSF dirtbike school, the instructor taught us to use your body to turn the bike in low speed maneuvers. It was like counterweighting , except the only real "pressure" applied to the bike was the inside footpeg on a turn, standing up on the pegs to make quick transitions side to side.

Since then I've found that a variety of "gentle" curves are easily manageable "no hands" on my bike just by giving a little pressure on the footpeg in the direction I want to go. I wouldn't care to do it at say 10mph, but at 50, it's steerable. It's not the most responsive steering input. Countersteering is much more effective, but it works.

[StoneTriple]

Any more words of wisdom?....

A really BIG parking lot! :lol:

She's absolutely right. All kidding aside, go out to some open area and ride around all day. Do it everyday for a month if you have to. The street is no place to be practicing something as fundamental as turning. My advice would be to not over-think this and don't get in a big hurry trying to clear this hurdle. There's no need to force some sort of timeline on yourself.

As Jeffie Foo Foo is fond of saying - "there's not a brolly girl waiting with a big cardboard check".

[Tourmeister]

:tab There is a German stunt rider guy, Christiansen or something... Anyway, he does a segment of his routine where he is doing figure eights with no hands at about 15mph. So a bike's course can be altered without countersteering. Anyone that has ever ridden a ten speed road bike has steered their bikes with just their weight while riding hands free. I have locked the throttle on my VFR's and made the bike move side to side while having my hands off the bike.

:tab Kieth Code's perspective is that this is not STEERING in the proper sense. I think he is splitting hairs but his idea of steering is immediate and precise response to controlled inputs. Simply getting the bike to slightly alter it's course to one side is not steering, according to him. Semantics I guess.

:tab At low speeds on a motorcycle, or most any speed on a road bike (bicycle), body weight has more of an affect because the gyroscopic forces of the wheels is less signficant. As a motorcycle goes faster, the gyroscopic forces from the wheels and motor become quite large and the use of weight has less of an affect, but it still has an affect nonetheless.

:tab I don't think proponents of body steering contend that you can get around the track at race pace without the use of countersteering. I think they are saying that adjustment of body position can fine tune the steering with small inputs in addition to the gross inputs from the bars. This is what they refer to as body steering. I think Code's problem is that he is hung up on being very precise in terminology. Just read any of his books and you will quickly see what I am referring to. He does not want his narrow definition of steering to include inputs from the rider anywhere except at the bars. Seeing as how many of the people that are proponents of body steering have won numerous world championships, I think they have an idea what they are talking about and he simply doesn't want to agree :lol: Seems to me to be a lot of grief over a silly thing.

:tab Push right = Go right. Push left = Go left. Works every time for me.

Adios,

[Texas T]

For good explanations / diagrams / descriptions / etc of this topic, read Proficient Motorcycling by Hough.

[HotChickenStrips]

I'd say don't think too much about contersteering or any other arcane term, like Rebecca said, practice in an open space, and here's the thing, other people have said it before, not just steer with the handlebars, use your body, because in reality, your body (uper torso, abdomen)will make the initial input on the bike, then your arms will take over steering the bike, with still some help from your upper body.

If you know how to ride a bicycle proficiently, then the basics are already there, who had time to learn "countersteering' when we were 5 years old??

All of this will take a little time, but at the end you'll steer the bike like it was a part of you. and after that, well, you'll have time to practice braking and parking lot maneuvers, but now just focus on steering. :-)

And another thing, some people will tell you that the input on the inside handlebar (the indide of the turn, the one that you actually "push" away from you) it's the only one you have to worry about, but I'd say thats a NO NO, both handle bars should get your undivided attention, so don't make that a habit, like Scott said one time, practice not neccesarily makes good riding, practice can also make bad habits harder to break.

[StoneTriple]

...in reality, your body (uper torso, abdomen)will make the initial input on the bike, then your arms will take over steering the bike, with still some help from your upper body.

It's exactly the opposite of that.
You can hang off all you want, but if you don't move the handlebars, you're not going to initiate a turn. If you're going really slow, you might be able to wobble it in such a way that it alters the course a little, but it's not any kind of turn.

When you're setting up for a high speed turn on a track, you're hanging off of the bike considerably so that you will be in the correct position once you're in the arc. It doesn't cause the bike to turn. Countersteering when you reach the turn-in point is what causes the bike to turn.

[buck000]

:tab There is a German stunt rider guy, Christiansen or something... Anyway, he does a segment of his routine where he is doing figure eights with no hands at about 15mph.

One version of that video is here (http://www.streetracersonline.com/videos/a14.php), about 1:00 into the clip... that guy is amazing :bow:

I found countersteering does not work at very low speeds (<5-7 mph), so maybe that's the source of one's confusion. I always find interesting the point at which countersteering becomes a factor (when the wheel is spinning enough that gyroscopic forces come into play).

grendal, if you're above 10 mph., you're countersteering. :chug:

[STrider]

I have locked the throttle on my VFR's and made the bike move side to side while having my hands off the bike.

+1. Through experimenting/ practice (always on open, no-low traffic streets) I've found that I can do a very mild lane change hands-free. Pressure on a footpeg & the tank's opposing side will "steer" the bike, but not enough (for me) that I would call it a proper turn. It works more effectively at lower speeds. At parking lot, sub-countersteering speeds, it is effective enough to scare the whats-is outta me.

At a more spirited :angel: pace, I will occasionally use footpeg and/or tank pressure to "fine-tune" or correct a corner line.

[Steve strom]

What is 'manhandling'? I suspect that it is actually counter steering and possibly body lean. We all operate under the same global physics. As stated, the physics do change at about 10 mph.....so anything said about steering a bike here seems to be regarding speeds over 10-15 mph.

When I got back onto a bike about 1 1/2 years ago, I thought that I steered my bike w body weight. Read the Hough book, went out and paid attention and then was able to agree that the primary steering input is at the handlebars via countersteering.

I suggest to read the stuff suggested in the thread but don't let it get too complex in your mind, this is only motorcycle science and not .........
I took some advice I read and practised one aspect of a turn at a time, got competent(?) w each and then worked on blending them together. Despite verb usage here, I do consider it important for me to continue to practise in order to become more competent.

Again, you gotta be doing the right things to some extent in order to stay upright thru even 1 turn. Keep it safe and simple and go out and do it.

It is sometimes impossible to ignore a request for an opinion. :-P ;-)

Steve

[Steve strom]

This is purposely a seperate post.

When hanging off in prep for a turn, are we not then countersteering to keep the bike going straight???? I think so.

Steve

[scratch]

It is sometimes impossible to ignore a request for an opinion. :-P ;-)

Steve

And sometimes it's impossible to resist offering an opinion even when it's explicitely not requested, and you know you're gonna catch never-ending, unmitigated grief for it. :shock: :-)

Hmm. Maybe that's why I'm still single...? Ahem. :roll:

_________________

Countersteering? It's freakin' black magic! :mrgreen:

I've never been able to understand any of the explanations given for why it works. The mechanics/physics are simply over my head and everything about it seems counter-intuitive when you sit down and think about it.

Fortunately, I rarely think about it. ;-)

By now you can tell I'm no source of deep knowledge on the subject so all I'll add is that you do as bushwhacker suggests and practice doing it until it becomes second nature for you.

[gotdurt]

I thought I commented on this before, so I went and dug it up... it was regarding handling a cruiser. Not every bike is the same when it comes to countersteering...

Uberhawk makes a good point; different types of bikes require very different types of input, and sportbike handling rules don't always apply. For instance, on the Daytona, at 50mph I can put pressure on the inside bar and peg going into a curve (without "leaning"), but if I put the same pressure on the inside bar on the NX, the bike will want to upright itself and become unstable. This varies slightly depenting on curve and speed, and is only one of many differences in handling characteristics between the two bikes. Differences in rake and trail, weight distribution, tire size and profile, and body position make these bikes two entirely different machines that require equally different riding techniques. A cruiser would be no exception.

[Sleepy Weasel]

This is purposely a seperate post.

When hanging off in prep for a turn, are we not then countersteering to keep the bike going straight???? I think so.

Steve

Just guessing here, but I'll give it a shot.

Starting with non-motorized cycles, I can think of plenty of times as a kid when I would counterWEIGHT a bicycle, leaning it left while keeping my body weight to the right to allow straight line travel despite the lean of the bike. Mainly I'd do it to allow the bars to clear an obstacle that was too close to my path of travel. Normally if the bike leans, the bike turns, right? Most likely I'm also making steering angle adjustments that combine with the lean angle, and weight shift to result in a straight line despite the lean. Which way and how far are tough to verify though, since your head is no longer over that centerline provided by the frame.

Same thing with a motorcycle, you can combine lean with steering angle changes, but if your head isn't centered over the frame, it's hard to verify the steering head alignment.

I always thought it would be interesting, and a good training aid, to make a video of a rider taking turns, using two cameras. Mount one on the tank, focused on the frame and upper triple, maybe paint a little line on both spots so you could see a visual indicator of when it was "straight" and when it turned one way or the other. Then mount a 2nd camera on the body work, showing you the bhavaior of the bike relative to the road. Synch up the two cameras and put the shot of the steering head in a "picture in picture" box in the corner. Some times still pictures, sketches and discussion of the topic don't illustrate the whole thing very clearly, and it's kind of rough to tell a new rider to simply "have faith."

[kocook]

OK, here goes. First, given time and space limitations, my comments apply to two-wheeled motorcycles on a paved surface.

Two types of steering on a motorcycle:
Slow speed -- turn the front wheel in the direction you want to go.
Faster speed -- 'counter-steering'.

How it works:
Slow speed -- the wheels are not spinning fast enough for the gyroscopic effect to cause the bike to lean. So you can just turn the front wheel just like you would in a car to go where you want to go.
Faster speed -- at some speed level, the spinning wheels become subject to the gyroscopic effect. This means that they react to input 90 degrees later.

For example, if you rotating the front axle clockwise in the verticle plane (right turn), the wheel reacts 90 degrees later as it continues to spin by rotating the axle clockwise, but now it is in the longitudinal plane. This results in rotating the whole motorcycle counter-clockwise on the longitudinal plane (leans left). If you could get the front wheel turned, you would high-side. Example, accelerate enough to get the front wheel off the pavement and turn it to full lock to the right, then chop the throttle. When the front tire comes in contact with the pavement, you will highside to the left.

But why does leaning the bike make it turn? Because the tires have a progressively smaller diameter toward the edge. To see this in action, lay a cone on its side on a flat, level surface and roll it. It will turn toward the end with the smaller diameter. Why? Remember, both ends will be spinning at the same speed. So the end with the larger diameter (and thus, a greater circumference) covers a longer distance than the smaller end.

OK, now about the role of body mass.
Slow speeds -- since the wheels are not spinning fast enough for the gyroscopic effect to keep the bike stable at a given lean angle, putting your body mass on the inside of the turn will tend to cause the bike to fall over (gravity overpowers the weak gyro). The method of 'counter weighting' with body mass is just to keep your body mass in vertical alignment over the contact patch, or to even to try to counter the mass of that portion of the motorcycle that may be leaned on the inside of the turn. That way the total mass of bike and rider is evenly distributed over the contact patch.
Faster speeds -- now that the gyroscopic effect is stronger, leaning either way will not cause the bike to fall since the wheels stabilize the bike. However, it is possible to affect the amount of lean angle needed to achieve a specific diameter turn at a given speed by shifting one's body mass.

Move the mass inside the turn (low is best) and required lean angle is reduced. Move the mass outside and required lean angle is increased. Road racers move their mass low and inside of the turn to keep the required lean angle as small as possible or to decrease the diameter of the turn at max lean angle.

Why does moving the mass low and inside the turn reduce lean angle? Because it puts more mass in a closer plane the with the contact patch as it counters centrifugal force. Basically, it makes the contact patch more efficient at maintaining traction.

OK, what about the video? Look at the front tire. It is turning the bike. The performer is simply leaning to the inside, in this case, to keep from high siding.

May the flaming begin.

[Tx Rider]

Yeah if your turning at over 10mph you are countersteering.

The terminology can also confuse new folks.

Saying push right-turn right can be confusing for some when you are actually turning the bars to the left to turn right. I also think it's important to really realize your turning the bars left to turn right as well, regardless of how you remember how to do so.

For some it's an excellent trick to remember consciously what to do. For others just telling them to turn the bars left to turn right works better.

What I did when I was younger and still do now occasionally is find a deserted backroad I can see a few miles ahead and good distance on both sides, (or whenever I'm alone on a deserted backroad) and practice counter steering by slaloming the road stripes. They don't knock you down if you miss and run over one.

Starting slaloming 2-3 left and 2-3 right, at 40mph or so just takin it easy and not pushing yourself. Get comfortable with it and your body positioning. You can do it in your own lane but then you don't have the stripes to mark distance between turns.

After a while you get faster and get better slaloming every stripe. It's also good practice for setting up avoidance skills instinctually.

Just make sure your also paying good attention to the road ahead and oncoming traffic.

I've been riding a long time and still do this now and then, as well as practice slow (less than 5mph) turns in parking lots now and then, normally right after I get a new set of tires.

Just be sure the road really is deserted.

[FJRMike]

"Push right = Go right. Push left = Go left. Works every time for me. "

Same here - I practice it by last-minute swerving to avoid objects in the road.

[Velocipede]

I don't feel like I'm "pressing" at all. I feel like I'm leaning and PULLING on the handlebars to turn the front in the direction of the turn.

I'm certainly no vet, but I do know countersteering is the quickest way for me to lean and initiate a turn. Like everyone else has said here, you are probably already dioing this. As for the PULLING feeling, you sure you are not experienceing this later into the turn? If I remember right, David Hugh writes about this in his explanation of countersteering (BTW "Proficient Motorcycling" is an excellent follow up to the MSF). While you're correcting your line through a turn, you may find yourself pulling on the inside side bar to increase turn radius / decrease lean. I wonder if this is what you are feeling?

Looking through the turn to the direction you want to go is another extremely important technique - at any speed. Target fixation is no joke. I watched a neighbor ride my buddy's bike straight into a parked car at the end of my street insted of making a simple right turn beside it :eek:. This was the best piece of advice I got when I started to venture out in traffic. Looking through the turn gets your eyes off the ground immediately in front of you, helping to decrease the sense of speed. Also gets you looking ahead for potential hazards.

Early Sunday mornings are an excellent time to venture out and start using your skills on familiar roads.

[Jack Giesecke]

You can hang off all you want, but if you don't move the handlebars, you're not
going to initiate a turn.

Bunk. You can steer a bike no hands with just your body. The quicker your bike steers, the easier this is to do. Lock your throttle and take your hands off the bars, then lean left or right and the bike will steer left or right. It will steer in the direction you are leaning. I do it all the time just for jollies and so I can sit up straight. :lol: The fork IS turning in the direction of the turn. There is no countersteering input, though. On the SV I can easily steer with just shifting my body, but on my 800 lbs BEAST of a wing with wheels that weight more than the wheels on my van, body inputs are less pronounced. But, throwing your body weight around still has its effect.

kocook is right. It is a gyroscopic effect thing. Your wheels are giant gyroscopes when they are turning. If there was no gyroscopic effect of the wheels, you couldn't ride a motorcycle at all. It is the gyroscopic forces of the mass of the wheel turning that keeps you going in a straight line without falling over. Lighten the wheels and tires and the bike will actually steer quicker because you'll more easily be able to countersteer against less gyroscopic force. It ain't magic. It's all physics.

[StoneTriple]

You can hang off all you want, but if you don't move the handlebars, you're not
going to initiate a turn.

Bunk. You can steer a bike no hands with just your body.

That's just letting gravity pull the bike over, not really steering.

[Jack Giesecke]

But the statement was you HAVE to apply counter steering to turn. I can steer the bike though some fairly tight sweepers by body steering the bike. No, I'm not going to do a 90 degree corner that way. I could if I had control of the throttle without touching the bars and slowed enough. It wouldn't be the easy way to corner, but I could do it. Counter steering just initiates the turn, anyway. Once into the corner, counter steering has done its job. It's not as quick, but you can also initiate that corner by throwing your body weight to one side.

The quicker the bike steers, the less you're going to notice the imputs you're making on the bars. On my Wing, I KNOW when I counter steer. On my old RS125 GP bike, it seemed as if I just thought where I wanted to go and the bike went there, like a neural connection. That is what is desired on the race track. Of course, the bike had PVM magnesium wheels, an AMAZING chassis, and only weighed 160 lbs dry stock, a little less with those wheels. The GoldWing is about five RS125s. ROF!

I can also tell you that on that 125, you had to move very smoothly and use your LEGS, not your arms, to move around. Of course, you have to do that on a 600 or liter bike to be smooth and go fast, but on the 125 it was imperative. If you went jumping around on that bike too suddenly, you could actually cause a wheel to lift! I've done it. That bike felt every jerky body movement and rewarded smoothness like no sport bike will ever know.

[Mr Ed]

I know I'm splitting hairs here, but I've got a purpose ;-) It isn't the countersteer that turns the bike. Countersteering leans the bike, and it's the lean that turns the bike.

Grendal. Get someone -- someone you really trust ;-) -- to go with you to a parking lot with painted lines. Get them to ride down the line toward you and turn away quickly to their right when they get close. Watch the path of travel of their front wheel, and you'll see it veer to their left of the line for a split second then the bike will lean and turn to their right. It all happens in a split second, so they may need to do it a few times for you. But if they'll stay on the painted line and you watch the contact point closely, you can see what happens.

I used to do this with students to "prove" that I was pushing the right bar to turn right. It seemed to help them to understand the concept of countersteering.

Something else that helped some of them was to tell them to push down and forward to make it lean. Pushing down to make that side go down and lean seems more intuitive to me, since that's what I thought I was doing for the first several years that I rode. Of course, the bar will only turn on one plane, so you're really pushing forward. It only goes down because it starts leaning, but many of my beginners were able to grasp "down and forward" more easily than "forward."

The countersteering effort for a gently turn is so light that it's almost imperceptible. It's no surprise that you question even doing it, but as someone said, if you're riding the bike around and turning it, you're countersteering it just like you did your bicycle. As someone else said "Don't overthink it."

[ZapataZR7]

Grendall: You need to practice and "feel" the countersteering process in a big parking lot first before going out in the streets.

[gotdurt]

I think this dead horse is beyond beaten :roll: . Wake me up when everyone agrees on a conclusion. I think this will join the ranks of oil and tires.... :-|

[grendal]

Well, as Gomer Pyle would say: Garsh!....

-Michael

[Jack Giesecke]

Heck, I think we all agree. Don't worry about the physics, just ride the danged bike! LOL

[Mr Ed]

Heck, I think we all agree. Don't worry about the physics, just ride the danged bike! LOLBingo!! :-)

I think people try to countersteer because they know they're supposed to, use too much input, wind up oversteering and having to correct, and end up wondering what they're doing wrong.