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Secondaries revisited.

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red757

red757

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Has anyone looked into being able to keep the secondary butterflies open all the time without having to remove them. Like some way to trick the ecm to keep them open all the time. Just curious cause i was looking through the manual and it seems there's got to be some way to get the stv actuator to keep them open or rig something. I dunno maybe its just late and I'm tired.
 
There are a few guys over on the Max Suk site trying to work out a way to reflash the ECU and take control of the secondaries. The idea is, to be able to leave them partially closed at low RPM to keep maximum torque, but open them all the way at full throttle for top end....

If you just want to open them all the way, why not just remove them? It's a pretty easy job, I have zero regrets.

I haven't seen an update in a while though... not sure what the latest is.

trey
 
Speaking of low RPMs...do you still have strong power at the low end without the butterflies?
 
GregH said:
Speaking of low RPMs...do you still have strong power at the low end without the butterflies?
Click to expand...

You'd have to let me ride a bike with them in right after riding one without. I couldn't tell any difference in low-end grunt with them out.

For that matter, I don't notice that much difference up top now that I have the stock exhaust/intake back on, it's just smoother now than it was with the secondaries in.

trey
 
Thanks, Trey. I'm working up my courage and my knowledge (and tools!) to do this mod. :scratch:
 
My very unscientific way of determining if there is a loss down low is the wheelie factor in first gear. Before and after removing secondaries snap the throttle just above idle and front end comes up no problem so I would say the same, with snorkel out cat gutted,scorpion slipon, no tfi. top end and mid is much better. Roll on in any gear is better and bike just feels uncorked and smoother. Do it you wont be sorry
 
treybrad said:
The idea is, to be able to leave them partially closed at low RPM to keep maximum torque, but open them all the way at full throttle for top end....
Click to expand...

The secondaries aren't there to improve torque - they're there to 'smooth' a rider's clumsy throttle action. They deaden the throttle response to a degree. Oh, and of course their secondary (:rofl:) function is to mess with the way the bike runs for emissions (noise and gas) reasons.

Removing them gives a more 'instant' throttle response because you don't have an ECU saying "oh no, you don't want to open the throttle that fast" and keeping the secondaries closed more. And because the ECU (or the secondary operation) is slow-witted the bike feels more lively without the secondaries messing with what your right wrist asks for. So, if you want to, you can make the bike wheelie more easily without the secondaries fitted because you can achieve a faster throttle opening - this is simply because of throttle response, not because of an increase in power/torque. But it makes the bike feel faster because of how it responds.
 
Will removing the secondaries make the bike smoother when I'm making a U-Turn?

I was riding with some friends and the leader missed a turn. We were on a country road with no traffic and pulled a U to go back (Well, I did, the H-Ds had to angle back and forth to get in position). I had the familiar chugging while making the slow-speed turn. If the secondaries were out would the throttle response be smoother there, too?
 
GregH said:
Will removing the secondaries make the bike smoother when I'm making a U-Turn?

I was riding with some friends and the leader missed a turn. We were on a country road with no traffic and pulled a U to go back (Well, I did, the H-Ds had to angle back and forth to get in position). I had the familiar chugging while making the slow-speed turn. If the secondaries were out would the throttle response be smoother there, too?
Click to expand...

The 'chugging' will be the ECU desperately trying to figure out what you're trying to do so that it can open/close the secondaries accordingly. And failing. So yes, removing them will make u-turns smoother BUT this depends on you being smooth with your throttle input during the manouvre because you won't have the action of the secondaries to damp out any fast opening of the throttle. Basically removing them will make it perform more like a carb'd bike - you get what you ask for with your throttle hand. Far more rewarding.
 
sproggy said:
...yes, removing them will make u-turns smoother BUT this depends on you being smooth with your throttle input during the manouvre because...
Click to expand...

I'm very smooth and controlled in the slow-speed maneuvers. At first I thought it was me (regarding that chugging) but then came to realize it was the bike fighting me. I'm happy to hear that a butterflyectomy could cure this malady.
 
u-turns should be controlled by the clutch as much as the throttle. with smooth clutch control u-turns can be easy and jerk free. I read an article in Rider mag that said many riders biggest fear is having to do a u-turn. In this instance no Fi mods or tuning can fix the problem its just practice practice practice. But as I said before removing the secondaries is a free and worth your time mod.
 
Your rear brake is your friend in slow speed maneuvers. Leave the front alone. I often practice full lock figure 8's on both my bikes just for the fun of it. ;0( The bandit can't even match the DR650 on tight turns. LOL.
 
GregH said:
I definitely use the clutch but it feels like the throttle is fighting me.
Click to expand...

I know what you mean by this. Had the same problem on my DL1000. I try to just crack the throttle to a fast idle like speed, ride the clutch and use the rear brake to control speed. Learned this from some LEO's at a top gun school. It takes a bit of practice till you get it coordinated but really kewl once you get it down. Seems like carb bikes make it easier than injected bikes. My R11** BMW's were smoother on idle transition than either my DL1000 or 1250Bandit.
 
One thing to consider before removing the flies is how it affects the air fuel ratio....Are we sure it's safe to do without adjusting the ECU mapping ?
 
I know Sproggy has (or had - since he sold his bandit) the secondaries out and everything else stock and he was happy.

I have all of Dale's mods with his TFI settings and have not had any adverse effects and I am getting around 44 MPG on average.

I would imagine that the computer gets the mixture correct based on what is going in (volume of air) without regard to the secondaries, they just control the flow (of the proper air/fuel mixture).

I am convinced this is one of the best mods you can do, with little or no down side (cheap too) - and it's completely reversible
 
twist said:
I know Sproggy has (or had - since he sold his bandit) the secondaries out and everything else stock and he was happy.
Click to expand...

I still have the Bandit and was riding it until last weekend. It just sold on eBay last night but it's still in the garage.

It runs better with the secondaries out than with them in - there's no hint of lean running. Treybrad has done a lot of miles (a lot more than me I'd guess) without secondaries and without any problems. To start with I kept the O2 bypass but treybrad didn't and he said it improved his fuel consumption plugging the O2 sensor back in so I removed my bypass and the bike ran just as good but drank a lot less.

twist said:
I would imagine that the computer gets the mixture correct based on what is going in (volume of air) without regard to the secondaries, they just control the flow (of the proper air/fuel mixture).
Click to expand...

The throttles (primaries and secondaries) control just the flow of air - fuel is injected downstream. So there is theoretical potential for the lack of secondaries to affect the mixture but in practice this doesn't appear to be a problem.

twist said:
I am convinced this is one of the best mods you can do, with little or no down side (cheap too) - and it's completely reversible
Click to expand...

+1 :thumb:
 
sproggy said:
It runs better with the secondaries out than with them in - there's no hint of lean running. Treybrad has done a lot of miles (a lot more than me I'd guess) without secondaries and without any problems. To start with I kept the O2 bypass but treybrad didn't and he said it improved his fuel consumption plugging the O2 sensor back in so I removed my bypass and the bike ran just as good but drank a lot less.
Click to expand...

So you did notice a reduction in fuel consumption with the o2 sensor plugged back in? That was just a theory on my part, but it made sense in my head....

I've put about 10k miles on since removing my secondaries. About 5k commuting, 5k touring (trip to NC/TN was in there). Everything else on my bike is bone stock engine-wise. I have zero complaints, it's nice and quiet, smooth, and *gasp*, it's still pretty darn quick :rider:

trey
 
Thanks, Phil. Be sure to post back on how they work. I'm going to remove the secondaries later in the year.
 
Has anyone who has done this determined if the secondaries are accessable without removing the entire TB assy? Meaning, can you take out the airbox, and if so, is there access enough to the butterfly screws from there?

I am about to answer this in person on Sunday the 9th......
 
PhilS said:
Has anyone who has done this determined if the secondaries are accessable without removing the entire TB assy? Meaning, can you take out the airbox, and if so, is there access enough to the butterfly screws from there?

I am about to answer this in person on Sunday the 9th......
Click to expand...

i'd venture to say no because I think you have to remove the throttle bodies to remove the air cleaner.
And as others have stated before take your time and make sure you heat the screws up real good to loosen the loctite. My adventure gave me one good screw and then screwed me. Needless to say I'm glad i am satisfied with the results cause there's no going back now.:lol2:
 
red757 said:
i'd venture to say no because I think you have to remove the throttle bodies to remove the air cleaner.
And as others have stated before take your time and make sure you heat the screws up real good to loosen the loctite. My adventure gave me one good screw and then screwed me. Needless to say I'm glad i am satisfied with the results cause there's no going back now.:lol2:
Click to expand...

Any fuel lines come off? I know the cables stay on but the electrical stuff comes off. Curious about the fuel. I take it you notice all the good paower above 5000RPM?
 
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