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Give it gas!!!

R

Red Brown

Guest
Interesting idea but considering that places like India uses about 60-70 percent CNG in all their vehicles...it is an effective marketing tool.

Question: Right now compressed natural gas is running at $2.23 at the City of Austin CNG station. How does this $2.23 per gallon compare to the real cost of regular unleaded which is quoted only slightly higher than $2.23?

If CNG costs 40 percent less than regular gasoline to operate, please explain the math behind this?

RB

Two-Wheeled Natural Gas Power

now-banner-chopper2-690x112.png

Built to show America the promise of natural gas as a clean energy resource, and in conjunction with Chesapeake Energy’s 20th anniversary, the talented crew from the hit TV show American Chopper partnered with the company to build a natural gas-powered bike. The episode covered the bike’s production process as Paul Sr. and crew visited a drilling rig and learned how natural gas can power everything from a semitruck to a custom chopper.

The bike sports OCC’s usual 117-cubic-inch V-twin engine, six-speed transmission and belt drive. Unlike other OCC choppers, this one features a regulator rather than a carburetor and a “fogger” to feed gas to the engine. In addition, the chopper’s gas gauge reads in pounds per square inch instead of gallons.

Adorned with drillbit-inspired handlebars, the blue and green bike is on a U.S. tour to help educate the public on the benefits of natural gas as a clean, abundant, affordable, American fuel.

SOURCE
 
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Yep. Propane has comparable power per amount of volume to petrol, and it burns almost as clean as CNG. A buddy of mine put 300,000 miles on a propane-powered work truck without ever doing a rebuild.
 
Yep. Propane has comparable power per amount of volume to petrol, and it burns almost as clean as CNG. A buddy of mine put 300,000 miles on a propane-powered work truck without ever doing a rebuild.

Hey Tim,

I am curious...did you your friend purchase a special kit or did he "wrench it" based on special knowledge?

North America has VASTS amount of natural gas, I am surprised more consumers don't use it. It surpasses wind, solar and other alternatives because we have the pipeline and the distro network.

At least commercial fleets are starting to use in in large quantities. Heck in South America and other countries is a very large part of the energy program.

It looks like propane is a little more than double the energy output of regular CNG based on the article below.

Let's start drilling (more).

RB

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Propane Vs. Natural Gas SOURCE

Natural gas is made up of several gases including propane, butane, ethane and mostly consists of methane. While propane is a part of natural gas in its raw state, it is a hydrocarbon separated from the other gases at gas processing facilities.

The propane that is separated during this process is stored and sold to propane dealers for end use by consumers. The comparison of propane vs. natural gas is widely used in applications for vehicles and residential fuel supply. Also, while propane is stored as a liquid, natural gas can be stored as liquefied natural gas (LNG), compressed natural gas (CNG) and in its uncompressed form, which is just referred to as "natural gas".

Propane Vs. Natural Gas - Energy Content Comparison

While propane is sold and delivered in gallons, it can easily be converted to cubic feet, which is how natural gas is measured for delivery. The cubic foot unit of measurement pertains to both natural gas and propane in their vapor forms. Provided that 1 cubic foot of propane contains 2,516 BTU and 1 cubic foot of natural gas contains 1,030 BTU, it is accurate to say that propane contains over twice the usable energy content per cubic foot (2.44 times more). Applying these numbers to compare the energy values in real-world examples, we'll use a 100,000 BTU/hr furnace to demonstrate the comparison.

* 100,000 BTU/hr furnace will use about 97 cubic feet of natural gas (100,000 ÷ 1,030 = 97.1) in one hour

* 100,000 BTU/hr furnace will use about 40 cubic feet of propane (100,000 ÷ 2516 = 39.7) in one hour


In examining the costs of natural gas vs. propane, the rates of local energy utilities and propane companies differ and will need to be taken into account for accurate comparison. But to obtain the cost comparison between the two fuels, one must compare the cost of the energy value which can be obtained through local propane companies and utility companies. While utility companies provide price per cubic foot, propane companies provide price per gallon.

Natural gas availability will generally determine whether or not propane can be used because many municipalities will require the use of natural gas if a business or residence is within a certain distance of a natural gas main line.

Propane Vs. Natural Gas Cost Comparison

The cost comparison between propane and natural gas is much easier due to the fact that unlike electricity, natural gas and propane can be directly compared based on their individual BTU ratings. Seeing that natural gas contains approximately 1,030 BTU per cubic foot and propane contains 2,490 BTU per cubic foot, we can easily derive each fuel's cost per BTU and compare their differences in price for more realistic volumes.

Let's assume the cost for natural gas is $15.00 per 1,000 cubic feet. This means that $15.00 will purchase approximately 1.03 million BTU's of energy. This would be equivalent to 11.26 gallons of propane. At $2.50 per gallon of propane, natural gas would be a more cost effective energy solution. Breaking it down even further, natural gas needs to be more than $28.00 per 1,000 cubic feet for propane to be a more cost effective energy solution (provided the cost for propane is $2.50 per gallon.

Environmental Impact of Propane Vs. Natural Gas

Natural gas, when discharged into the environment is a greenhouse gas whereas propane is not classified as such. Propane is not toxic or damaging and will not harm the environment if it is released into the atmosphere, which is why it is not labeled as a greenhouse gas. Therefore, while propane will not contribute to pollution in its unused state if released, natural gas will. Propane is a green fuel before combustion and remains environmentally friendly even after it is used, as described below.

The emissions comparison of propane vs. natural gas is a fairly insignificant due to the cleanliness of each fuel. Propane and natural gas are both classified as alternative fuels for vehicles and both exemplify clean burning characteristics with harmful emissions and toxins at minimal levels. As a primary energy source, natural gas is sometimes used as a source for electricity generation while propane is not. Propane vs. natural gas is a topic of little discussion where environmental impact is concerned as they are both environmentally friendly fuels.
 
We use CNG in some of our vehicles. I agree with all it's greatness but say for a Crown Vicky, the tank will take up almost half of your trunk space for about 100 miles to the tank load. We had our own CNG station but there weren't that many around the metroplex. The cars seemed to run pretty well on it but I never romped on it to see just how well they would run(honest boss).
 
I am curious...did you your friend purchase a special kit or did he "wrench it" based on special knowledge?

It was one of his fleet vehicles. He had several trucks outfitted to run on propane, but the one he regularly drove lasted longer than the others because it was doing less hard field work.
 
Natural gas burns so clean that maintenance is reduced. I think you change the oil at something like 20,000 miles because there are no hydrocarbons breaking down the oil. Again, you have the volume issue to deal with: big tanks and short range.

BTW, gas is very expensive compared to coal generation for electricity.
 
My wife's brother and father have cars that run on CNG or unleaded (they go both ways), and having driven their Opel, it feels no different that one that uses the usual stuff. Granted the tanks in both cars use up half the trunk, but that is a sacrifice they can live with due to the high cost of fuel in Eastern Europe compared to the salaries.

One guy on the Jeep forum who lives in Croatia has a Wrangler set up to run CNG, but I am not sure where he has his tank.
 
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CONVERSION KITS ARE AVAILABLE. A propane outfit here did have them. PM me if you want their business addy.
 
Natural gas burns so clean that maintenance is reduced. I think you change the oil at something like 20,000 miles because there are no hydrocarbons breaking down the oil. Again, you have the volume issue to deal with: big tanks and short range.

BTW, gas is very expensive compared to coal generation for electricity.

When initially designed, CNG vehicles tended to have less power than vehicles typically driven by Americans. This is likely due to the fact that these vehicles were designed largely for consumers who were more interested in efficiency and environmental impact than power. True, the extra large tanks were heavy and on some small cars impacted the driving rang at least partially.

However, a few CNG vehicles are now being fitted with turbo engines that give the vehicles the horsepower Americans are used to. Mercedes-Benz even designed their CNG vehicles to have exactly the same horsepower when running on CNG or gasoline, allowing the driver switch between the two fuels without noticing a difference in power.

One vehicle, the Fiat Siena 1.4 Tetrafuel, has a sensor to automatically switch from CNG to gasoline or ethanol when extra power is needed. Features such as these will help American consumers warm up to the idea of owning CNG vehicles.

The Opel mentioned in other posts gets 323 miles when using reserve. I think this is hardly insiginicant in distance. Anyway, check HERE for a listing of all the CNG based cars. The listing is very impressive and growing to say the least.

You made the claim that [natural gas] gas is very expensive compared to coal generation for electricity.

I did some initial research some time ago and was able to develop a set lists that make it abundantly clear on the benefits of natural gas over coal. Coal provides over 45 percent of our total energy needs currently and so they have a large lobby trying to squelch interest in natural gas as the most desirseable form of low-cost energy.

Natural gas has huge advantage. When you start up a coal fired power plant, it takes a full day to bring it up to temperature (to avoid damaging the boilers), and it has to burn 24 hours a day. A typical coal fired boiler produces anywhere from a few hundred MW to over 1,000 MW.

Natural gas in a combustion gas turbine can produce 100-300 MW, takes up minimal space in comparison, and can be up and running in less than 30 minutes. They are often used for peak load. The heat from the exhaust of multiple units can be used to make steam, and so achieve greater efficiency through co-generation. The advantage of being able to start up your power generators in the morning and turning them off in the evening, burning no fuel for 8-10 hours a day, is enormous.

The Top Ten Reason for the Consumer

1. Convenience
With natural gas, you'll never run out of fuel. Underground pipelines mean there is no disruption of supply due to storms or power outages. Unlike other heat sources that leave ashes and odors, natural gas will never leave a mess. And you'll love the convenience natural gas adds to your home - from instant, cozy heat, to precision cooking, and nice, long showers without running out of hot water.

2. Versatility
Natural gas can do more than heat your home. It can be used for water heating, clothes drying, cooking, and mood-setting fireplaces. It can also be used outdoors for barbecuing, gas lighting, and even to heat your swimming pool or hot tub.

3. Savings
Natural gas can save you money. Visit the appliance section to view cost comparison. Natural Gas is still your best energy buy.

4. Safety
Natural gas is one of the world's safest sources of energy used by over 15 million Canadians to heat their homes and businesses.

5. Consistent, Reliable Supply
Natural gas comes from a pipeline underground. It's always there when you need it and you never have to worry about running out of fuel, or arranging for deliveries. Many natural gas appliances will operate during a power outage so you can still stay warm, have hot water and eat well.

6. Future Possibilities
Once your home is connected to natural gas, it's easy to convert appliances or add additional gas products later on:

outside for your barbecue, pool heater, and gas lights - in the basement for your water heater and clothes dryer - in the kitchen for your range and/or cooktop - in the den and living room for your natural gas fireplace - compressed natural gas are being in many part of the world with new models coming to the United States from Honda and others.

7. Environmental Benefits
By all measures natural gas is the best energy alternative for today

8. Abundant Domestic Production
International supply issues will never stand in the way of heating your home. There is a secure supply of natural gas in Canada.

9. Easier, More Affordable Maintenance
Clean burning natural gas heating equipment means less maintenance and repairs over the years.

10. Increased Resale Value of Your Home
Adding natural gas heating, a fireplace and other appliances to your home, farm or cottage will pay dividends down the road when you decide it's time to move.

The results are clear-cut, natural gas is a winner!

RB
 
I use to work with a dude that had a Dodge deisle truck with propane injection. The propane was like a shot of NOS, so much that another co-workers mullet-mobile (trans-am) couldn't keep up
 
IIRC you have a problem with starting in low (winter) temperatures. So it is usually start/warm up the engine with regular gas, then switch to propane/ng. The switchover on the fly can also be somewhat tricky. Not sure how they manage it with injection, with carburated cars you have to break the pump circuit then wait until the residual gas in the carbs burns off, then switch to propane/NG. Nothing really tricky, just requires some good timing not to stall the car while in motion. I drove my father-in-law's carburator-equipped car with a NG conversion three years ago, and I recall thinking this would never sell in US due to liability reasons.

But if they figure out how to have seamless changeover and keep the costs reasonable, I'll take one.
 
In the mid-80's the Morgan Plus8 (with the Rover 3500 V-8) was imported into the US they were converted to run on propane to meet emissions without catalytic converters or air pumps. With the limited numbers it made more sense for the importer to convert them, they were easily converted back to run on petrol.
 
When initially designed, CNG vehicles tended to have less power than vehicles typically driven by Americans. This is likely due to the fact that these vehicles were designed largely for consumers who were more interested in efficiency and environmental impact than power. True, the extra large tanks were heavy and on some small cars impacted the driving rang at least partially.

However, a few CNG vehicles are now being fitted with turbo engines that give the vehicles the horsepower Americans are used to. Mercedes-Benz even designed their CNG vehicles to have exactly the same horsepower when running on CNG or gasoline, allowing the driver switch between the two fuels without noticing a difference in power.

One vehicle, the Fiat Siena 1.4 Tetrafuel, has a sensor to automatically switch from CNG to gasoline or ethanol when extra power is needed. Features such as these will help American consumers warm up to the idea of owning CNG vehicles.

The Opel mentioned in other posts gets 323 miles when using reserve. I think this is hardly insiginicant in distance. Anyway, check HERE for a listing of all the CNG based cars. The listing is very impressive and growing to say the least.

You made the claim that [natural gas] gas is very expensive compared to coal generation for electricity.

I did some initial research some time ago and was able to develop a set lists that make it abundantly clear on the benefits of natural gas over coal. Coal provides over 45 percent of our total energy needs currently and so they have a large lobby trying to squelch interest in natural gas as the most desirseable form of low-cost energy.

Natural gas has huge advantage. When you start up a coal fired power plant, it takes a full day to bring it up to temperature (to avoid damaging the boilers), and it has to burn 24 hours a day. A typical coal fired boiler produces anywhere from a few hundred MW to over 1,000 MW.

Natural gas in a combustion gas turbine can produce 100-300 MW, takes up minimal space in comparison, and can be up and running in less than 30 minutes. They are often used for peak load. The heat from the exhaust of multiple units can be used to make steam, and so achieve greater efficiency through co-generation. The advantage of being able to start up your power generators in the morning and turning them off in the evening, burning no fuel for 8-10 hours a day, is enormous.

The Top Ten Reason for the Consumer

1. Convenience
With natural gas, you'll never run out of fuel. Underground pipelines mean there is no disruption of supply due to storms or power outages. Unlike other heat sources that leave ashes and odors, natural gas will never leave a mess. And you'll love the convenience natural gas adds to your home - from instant, cozy heat, to precision cooking, and nice, long showers without running out of hot water.

2. Versatility
Natural gas can do more than heat your home. It can be used for water heating, clothes drying, cooking, and mood-setting fireplaces. It can also be used outdoors for barbecuing, gas lighting, and even to heat your swimming pool or hot tub.

3. Savings
Natural gas can save you money. Visit the appliance section to view cost comparison. Natural Gas is still your best energy buy.

4. Safety
Natural gas is one of the world's safest sources of energy used by over 15 million Canadians to heat their homes and businesses.

5. Consistent, Reliable Supply
Natural gas comes from a pipeline underground. It's always there when you need it and you never have to worry about running out of fuel, or arranging for deliveries. Many natural gas appliances will operate during a power outage so you can still stay warm, have hot water and eat well.

6. Future Possibilities
Once your home is connected to natural gas, it's easy to convert appliances or add additional gas products later on:

outside for your barbecue, pool heater, and gas lights - in the basement for your water heater and clothes dryer - in the kitchen for your range and/or cooktop - in the den and living room for your natural gas fireplace - compressed natural gas are being in many part of the world with new models coming to the United States from Honda and others.

7. Environmental Benefits
By all measures natural gas is the best energy alternative for today

8. Abundant Domestic Production
International supply issues will never stand in the way of heating your home. There is a secure supply of natural gas in Canada.

9. Easier, More Affordable Maintenance
Clean burning natural gas heating equipment means less maintenance and repairs over the years.

10. Increased Resale Value of Your Home
Adding natural gas heating, a fireplace and other appliances to your home, farm or cottage will pay dividends down the road when you decide it's time to move.

The results are clear-cut, natural gas is a winner!

RB

You sound like a spokesman for the natural gas industry.:-P

My college runs a training program for power plant maintenance people so I'm famaliar with the operation of both gas and coal fired plants. In San Antonio, the great majority of electricity is generated via coal fired plants at Calaveras and Braunig Lakes. They also get a little from the South Texas Nuclear Project and they also have gas fired peakers for the air conditioning season.

Electricity generated via natural gas cost almost twice as much as electricity generated by coal or nuclear. CPS Energy has contracts for low priced coal for years to come, but they have to buy natural gas on the spot market so they can't predict their cost for gas whether it is used to generate electricity or is supplied to heat your home.

The fuel adjustment surcharge is all gas as the price of coal is fixed. The price of natural gas would explode if we converted coal fired plans to natural gas and the price of electricity would rise...a lot. Can't provide numbers because you can't predict the cost increase for gas in that event.

I also deal with Luminant Power and Reliant Energy and they are both big into coal due to the low cost compared to natural gas. Luminant owns its own coal mines so their cost is fairly fixed.
 
You sound like a spokesman for the natural gas industry.:-P

Electricity generated via natural gas cost almost twice as much as electricity generated by coal or nuclear. CPS Energy has contracts for low priced coal for years to come, but they have to buy natural gas on the spot market so they can't predict their cost for gas whether it is used to generate electricity or is supplied to heat your home.

The fuel adjustment surcharge is all gas as the price of coal is fixed. The price of natural gas would explode if we converted coal fired plans to natural gas and the price of electricity would rise...a lot. Can't provide numbers because you can't predict the cost increase for gas in that event.

I also deal with Luminant Power and Reliant Energy and they are both big into coal due to the low cost compared to natural gas. Luminant owns its own coal mines so their cost is fairly fixed.

I understand there is a fierce rivalry between NatGas and coal.

The House climate bill (hr. 2454 ) passed this June contains free greenhouse gas emission allocations, incentives and other provisions to help the coal industry transition to a low-carbon economy and to promote renewable energy. Coal is a filthy method of generating energy and I have yet to see effective clean-coal technology due to the high-cost involved.

Congress is pushing for a new Senate bill to reward companies for switching to lower-carbon emitting natural gas through "bridge fuel credits" -- carving them out from the international offsets that are made available. Bridge fuel credits would be issued if a company reduced its emissions by using natural gas instead of a more carbon-intensive fuel, according to NatGas lobby group. Each credit would equal 1 ton less of greenhouse gas emissions that would have occurred if the more carbon-intensive fuel had been burned, and the credits would be available from around 2012 to 2025 or so.

The NatGas alliance is also seeking incentives and exemptions for natural gas-powered vehicles as well.

While coal is a viable option for now, NatGas holds much more potential for not only heating but automobiles and other forms of transportation. I would be interested in knowing in total energy output how much proven reserves of NatGas compared to coal that North America has.

I believe you do not realize how much NatGas is waiting to be extracted from various shale plays - Haynessville being the most famous! Coal may be better due to transportation issues, but NatGas will grow as an even more viable form of energy and coals importance will diminish slowly.

RB
 
Can't find a converter kit for my '07 Dodge truck. Can't be that hard, eight injectors and some software tweeks. I have a 7 foot bed to put a flat tank into.
 
I understand there is a fierce rivalry between NatGas and coal.

The House climate bill (hr. 2454 ) passed this June contains free greenhouse gas emission allocations, incentives and other provisions to help the coal industry transition to a low-carbon economy and to promote renewable energy. Coal is a filthy method of generating energy and I have yet to see effective clean-coal technology due to the high-cost involved.

Congress is pushing for a new Senate bill to reward companies for switching to lower-carbon emitting natural gas through "bridge fuel credits" -- carving them out from the international offsets that are made available. Bridge fuel credits would be issued if a company reduced its emissions by using natural gas instead of a more carbon-intensive fuel, according to NatGas lobby group. Each credit would equal 1 ton less of greenhouse gas emissions that would have occurred if the more carbon-intensive fuel had been burned, and the credits would be available from around 2012 to 2025 or so.

The NatGas alliance is also seeking incentives and exemptions for natural gas-powered vehicles as well.

While coal is a viable option for now, NatGas holds much more potential for not only heating but automobiles and other forms of transportation. I would be interested in knowing in total energy output how much proven reserves of NatGas compared to coal that North America has.

I believe you do not realize how much NatGas is waiting to be extracted from various shale plays - Haynessville being the most famous! Coal may be better due to transportation issues, but NatGas will grow as an even more viable form of energy and coals importance will diminish slowly.

RB

I would like to see coal phased out as a fuel, but I just don't see it happening soon based on the economics.
 
Several years ago Arlington considered buying some fleet vehicles that ran on CNG. One of the local filling stations added infrastructure for refueling CNG. Alas the city backed out of the program, and later the station removed the CNG fueling station.

Either the chicken or the egg has to come first, but which is which here? The CNG vehicle is not useful without the refueling stations, and the stations cannot be economically feasible without a customer base.

It might be neat to list off retail outlets for fueling with CNG and see how many of us consumers could feasibly support the technology.
 
Several years ago Arlington considered buying some fleet vehicles that ran on CNG. One of the local filling stations added infrastructure for refueling CNG. Alas the city backed out of the program, and later the station removed the CNG fueling station.

Either the chicken or the egg has to come first, but which is which here? The CNG vehicle is not useful without the refueling stations, and the stations cannot be economically feasible without a customer base.

It might be neat to list off retail outlets for fueling with CNG and see how many of us consumers could feasibly support the technology.

Good point...the availability of gas stations is important. There is a company that was acquired by Fuel Systems Solutions, Inc. that has a product called Phill that is a regulator that attaches to your existing gas line into your house. You use Phill to fill your natural gas tank in your automobile. I think it is a neat idea.

This map, shows you where you can find CNG stations near you. According to the map, for Austin, you have to use the City of Austin CNG gas station.

RB
 
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