An interesting dilemma?

[Tourmeister]

Howdy,

Was cruising another forum and came across the topic of sick days. The question is what do you think of using them as days off when you are not sick? In this particular case, it was to go riding. Opinions?

Adios,

[VFRinAustin]

Mental Health days man, thats what I call them.

[buck000]

You should be allowed to call in well.

I actually have a boss that supports this :dude: , just not all the time, natch. :bigokay:

[Tourmeister]

But you have not addressed the issue. Do you think it is okay to call in sick when you are in fact not sick?

Adios,

[buck000]

But you have not addressed the issue. Do you think it is okay to call in sick when you are in fact not sick?

Adios,

Um, well, no, I don't. :suicide:

[hillcountry]

As a confirmed job jumper (7 jobs in the last 10 years -- jumped for bigger and better things), here is my twisted view of the world of employment.

I've worked for a company that it was encouraged to work long hours (pretty normal), but if you weren't there for at least 8 hours in a given day, then you had to take vacation time -- 12 hours on Monday + 7 hours on Tuesday = 1 hour of vacation.

I worked for a company that we were forced to take vacation the week between Christmas and New Years because "so many people are out that it will be unproductive to open" -- that was a small software shop (I didn't stay long)

If you feel stressed enough to take a day to ride to get your self back to normal, relaxed, etc. on occassion (insert common sense here) then I think it's OK and is good for both you and your employer.

Of course if your company has a very explicit policy regarding sick time, then let your concious be your guide :shame: (I'd still call in sick and ride)

[P-Ratt]

I don't recall ever calling in sick when I wasn't. Then again, I haven't ever been in a position to do that. The army doesn't go for that sort of thing and neither does school. :doh: Now that I'm employed, I may use that in the future. Well have to see. ;-)

[Janet]

Do you think it is okay to call in sick when you are in fact not sick?

No, it is lying.

[mikeofcontex]

Too complex to answer with a yes or no. It amazes me how often an employer keeps close count of time off, but provides no compensation for excess work. In this case, sick days should become a form of compensation. The civil service contract take into both issues.

[Cagiva 549]

I'm sick of work , I just wish I had a boss that care......OH wait , I'm the boss . SEYA

[flb_78]

We don't get "sick" days, so if I miss, I don't get paid.

[sharkey]

I say it is ok. You've earned that as a benefit of your job. When you leave, some places don't compensate you for all or part of your sick time.

I usually either am sick or sick of coming in (mental health day) so I'm not lying.

[h2000fb]

That is exactly why I don't give sick days at my company. Now we just give "earned days off." You apply them to vacation, sick days, wellness days, or whatever you want call them. You give sick days and too many people lie. Originally I had no sick days, but just forgave those absences and paid them. Nothing formal, just trying to be nice. However, you guessed the problem with that. My generousity and good nature was taken advantage of, so that stopped.

It is amazing how "sick" days have decreased under the new policy. uhmmm.....

[STScott]

No..it is wrong. If you're sick, you're sick....if you aren't sick, then you are lying to your boss....and in my line of work that can get you fired most quick quick.

In fact I knew an officer who was fired just for that. He called in sick to go to a party. A supervisor asked him about it, he said he was home sick and put it in a memo....now he has lied on paper. He was fired in about a week.

Now an issue I will have to deal with in 15 years or so is accrued sick leave. There is no limit to sick leave accrual so I can build up thousands of hours but the kicker is I only get paid for 720 hours when I retire so I could end up giving a couple of thousands of hours back to the city....but that's a bridge I will have to cross when I get to it.

[KenH]

Fort Worth provides 5 "sick days" per year. When I'm sick of school, I take a couple sick days. That has happened 3 times over the past 7 years. When I fill out the paperwork, I do write "sick of school" in the appropriate blank. I missed 5 days after driving through a brown tornado, but that was after spending a night on the floor with convulsions and fever so bad I couldn't use the phone to call for help. I have also given several of my sick days to a fund for those with long-term medical absences.

Texas provides 5 "personal days" per year. I have yet to take a personal day. All told, of the 80 days I have earned while teaching in Texas, I still have 62 left.

Why should I work every day when people who miss 10 days per year make the same money I do? Teachers do not get paid vacation and holidays, either.

[Texas T]

Now an issue I will have to deal with in 15 years or so is accrued sick leave. There is no limit to sick leave accrual so I can build up thousands of hours but the kicker is I only get paid for 720 hours when I retire so I could end up giving a couple of thousands of hours back to the city....but that's a bridge I will have to cross when I get to it. That will resolve itself; as you get older the body will tend to break down more often and you'll be glad you accrued those extra hours because they will come in handy.

[tjbrandt50]

I'm not a big fan of the idea (though I have made an early morning recovery or two in my day after calling in sick), but have seen them treated various ways at different jobs. My hospital days, you got a quarter of accumulated sick time as additional severence pay. My current job, you are alloted 5 sick days for family care days.

I expect no matter what you think, the equally important question is what your boss thinks, and how likely they would be to find out.

[fastraveller]

But you have not addressed the issue. Do you think it is okay to call in sick when you are in fact not sick?

Adios,

NO. Unless it is specifically allowed by corporate policy it is NOT okay. Some organizations allow you to take off a certain number of days per year and don't care what the reason is. Most organizations still have a prescribed number of sick days in addition to a prescribed number of vacation days. You are hired with an understanding of what the employer expects and you should live up to your end of the bargain regardless of what you think of the policy later on. Besides that, what are you going to do if you've used up all your sick time, to do whatever, and then you really get sick and need more time off? I would recommend that anyone read the book "That's Why They Call it Work" if you haven't already. I would also suggest that if a person needs to take off another day every now and then, that they talk to their manager about occasionally working four 10-hour days during the week that they need to take another day off. Most managers won't mind if they think you are especially productive day-in and day-out.

David

[newskilz]

I generally would say no, it's not ok. Fortunately my employer gives us "PDO" or Paid Days Off, depending on how long you've worked for them determines how fast you can acrue these days, as a percentage of your worked hours (up to 40 a week :( ). So sick days and vacation is all one lump, you sick a lot, no paid vacation for you. Also, you can either roll over your accrued PDO or cash part or all of it out at the end of each year. At least my employer does something that seems the right way to do it, some other areas they just have me scratching my head.
:zen:

[kirbykajin]

A lot of corporations have done away with sick days. We now have "Personal days". You accrue them at different rates according to how many years you have been with the company. I believe the first two years is 6 days a year, and it goes up from there. These are in addition to vacation and you can use them as you please.

[DFW_Warrior]

No, it is lying.

A big +1 from me. It's lying plain and simple. No ifs ands or buts about it.

I'm lucky with my company. We just have PTO (personal time off) days that cover everything.

[Tourmeister]

Just for the record, I agree with the, "It's lying" position ;-)

[phil gates]

My co. just calls all days off PTOs. Payed Time Off. That way no lies!

[ericlw]

personally.I have seen people fired over using too many sick days.yes they are sick days but they are not free to use as vacation.from what i see the more professional the job is the more they care about how many sick days you take.i have about 15 sick days saved up.no we are not paid for them when we leave.i would expect to be fired for using all my sick time every year.A LOT of employers do not like people taking a lot of sicktime.since texas is "at will" employer do this lieing at your own risk.

Also i once worked in the financial industry.it was a well known fact if you had a credit card through the credit union and the day you take off sick they look up where you bought stuff that day and audit your bank account at their own wants and they didnt have to tell you.

[hetkind]

my record speaks for itself. My current sick leave balance is 1352 hours. I have used 20 hours in the last year, after Jill has surgery on her shoulder. When I retire, all the sick time just goes away. I have many coworkers, with similiar sick leave totals, and some, with 20 years service, no major illness and NO sick leave saved up. I also have 650 hours of annual leave saved up also, so I have plenty of leave to take without calling a day off to a sick day. BUT, ! work 4 days at 10 hours a day, telecommute several days a week, and when we have travel money spend 8 weeks on the road in a row.

I look at it as an insurance policy...

Howard

[DFW_Warrior]

Just for the record, I agree with the, "It's lying" position ;-)

Scott, I've never met you before but I can honestly say there was never a doubt in my mind which direction you would be on this one.:mrgreen:

[kurt]

Not OK. We have people that use sick time when denied for vacation (all the vacation slots are full) or just don't feel like working today. We call this the "*screw* your buddy system". One person calls out and someone is going to fill that spot. Employee "X" got the day off that they wanted, but employee "Y" lost their day off to cover it.

[tejasx]

My company has a PTO setup, Paid Time Off. You can take off for any reason, you don't even have to give them a reason, the only catch is in my position, there has to be someone to cover the hours. Then any leftover is paid out in December.

[NUTT]

I'm in a PTO situation myself.

Although, in my opinion, "sick" days should be considered as part of an overall compensation package. If they do not roll over (and in most cases they do not) you should be able to use them. I think this is why many companies are going to a "personal" day or a straight Paid Time Off structure.

However, you need to use these unscheduled sick/personal days wisely. Don't screw your buddy by calling off at the last minute. I work sick when I have tasks that would impact my peers if I were not available to do them.

[CBAT]

It depends on your employers leave policy. If the policy states the leave is for being personally sick or caring for a sick family member, then that's what it's for. That would include being stressed out to the point where you can't safely perform you job. This varies greatly with the occupation. That being said, If you call in and say you are sick when you are not, that is by definition a lie and should not be acceptable. If your company policy views it as personal days then take off whenever you want but you still should not lie about the reason for being off work. Save you sick leave for the times when you need to recover from falling off your dirt bike. :rider:

[edmart001]

I think that if your company has a certain number of sick days specified, to use them for anything other than being ill is dishonest.

My current company has straight Paid Time Off to be used for either vacation or sick time, it makes no difference, it's just PTO. So, if one is sick often, they get less time off for vacation. Seems like a better system to me.

[Squidward]

I only use my sick time when I am sick. Like when I am sick of work.

Or when I am having vision trouble. Like those days that I just can't see myself being at work.
:rofl:

[Hood Ornament]

I work sick when I have tasks that would impact my peers if I were not available to do them.

Now this I have a problem with. It used to burn me up when people would come in sick spreading it around for everyone else. I hate getting sick, and I especially hate getting sick because someone else drags their sick carcass into work and spreads it around. Now if one of my employees tries that, I send them home immediately.

[scar04]

My dad is my boss, so I cant BS it. I usually dont use sick days, even when I am sick. when we're not busy, we ge a little more leeway, but in Tax season, vacations or the flu is a bad idea. Ive seen people abuse the sick day thing into the ground. Here, if you need a day, take a day. we work enough long hours and weekends to earn a hall pass once in a while. I have yet to do that, but Im sure after the returns are out, I'll take a mental health day.

[klb1122]

I'm a little surprised by the resonses on here. I guess we have some hard-core working people.

At my previous employer, I had hundreds of hours of sick time accumulated. I never took a sick day, I guess I just felt too bad about it. And when I left the company, do you know what I got for never taking a sick day? Absolutely nothing. All that loyalty and nothing to show kindof hurts.

At my current company, I get two weeks of vaction (10 days), 2 Personal Days, and 8 sick days on a rolling twelve-month calendar. All of the policies changed to this at the beginning of the year and we were told we MUST (no exceptions) take our two weeks at one time. I wanted to go to Barber for the Superbike races with my family in late April, so I had to take my two weeks then. That left me with 2 days for the rest of the year. I wasn't happy, but hey, I was following the policy. Well then the genius big-wigs decided that was unfair and that we only had to take one week all together and then you could do whatever you wanted with the rest. I was pissed off and I'm still pissed off about that. They decided this half-way through the year, and won't do anything to compensate those who followed the policy for the first half of the year. :shame: :biggun:

I consider my time off of work a very sacred thing and hate when people jack with it. So for this year at least, I could care less if I take one of my sick days if I'm not sick. I planned a call in several weeks ago on a Friday to ride out to the Guadalupe River. Was I lying.... yes. Did I feel bad about it... not in the least bit. :rider: :rider:

[Squidward]

Our sick days are technically personal days. I've used them just because I feel like leaving early on a given day. I do not lie about using them though. I'm very up front about not being sick even though I'm using sick hours to bail early. The only good thing about this union gig.

[bear]

When I started at my first teaching job. I did not take a personal day or sick day for 5 years straight. We got a little incentive of cash for that, but it was not the save value your daily rate was, then the new super took away the bonus and let us accumulated local days and after 10 years you could get paid for them. But if the super leaves the next one can cut that deal out if it will cost the district too much money. If you leave before 10 years then you got nothing. I noticed that I was more agitated and stressed during the first five years then other workers. So then I started taking personal days and sick days to go to the doctor to get checkups. If I leave my job I get no compensation for all the personal days I have saved up, close to 50. But I am not allowed to use them whenever I want either. I don't think it is right that you get a benefit that if you use it, you get into trouble with the boss.

:angryfire Taking a sick day is not honest, but I can rationalize it when I know the company will get rid of me to save a buck no matter how loyal or hardworking I am.

[Steve O Chap]

It's a matter of integrity... if you're sick, then you're sick. If not, you're expected to be there. That's a job, you accept the responsibilities of taking that job!

I've only been in the 'post college' workforce for 5 years, but I can count the number of sick days I've taken on one hand.

I don't buy the "I've earned the opportunity to call in sick" ideology... plain and simple it's lying.

[Blue Bomber]

Now an issue I will have to deal with in 15 years or so is accrued sick leave. There is no limit to sick leave accrual so I can build up thousands of hours but the kicker is I only get paid for 720 hours when I retire so I could end up giving a couple of thousands of hours back to the city....but that's a bridge I will have to cross when I get to it.

That was a problem I had when I quit working at my job after 10 1/2 years after having Sarah. I had over 60 days of sick leave after taking 6 weeks off for the baby and I just lost them. :shrug: Oh well, I would much rather be home taking care of my kids than still at that job with all those sick days waiting to be used. For me that was the best decision.

[phil gates]

Also i once worked in the financial industry.it was a well known fact if you had a credit card through the credit union and the day you take off sick they look up where you bought stuff that day and audit your bank account at their own wants and they didnt have to tell you.

I think that is peranoia(sp) to the extreme...

[scar04]

I think that is peranoia(sp) to the extreme...
when people went on vacation, we'd audit their accounts (I was an auditor for a bank for a while) so its not uncommon. The ones we had to watch were the ones who never left. It always seemed that the most dedicated were the ones stealing (never leaving, always working a little too hard) and thats only to a degree mind you. but the ones that never left, were the ones we had to watch for.

[STScott]

That will resolve itself; as you get older the body will tend to break down more often and you'll be glad you accrued those extra hours because they will come in handy.


Not necesarily...I know lots of officers that have 25-30 years in and have three thousand and more hours of sick leave.

[Rick]

I am a supervisor at a generating plant so I can speak for the other side. There is not much I can do to a scum sucking sicktime abuser right now because of my company rules. But you generally know when someone abuses it and there are more ways to influence the situation later. These people make more work on me, their peers and cost the company extra money. In our facility we cover man for man so someone is forced in and we pay them overtime and the sicktime abuser gets regular time. So not only are they lying, they are stealing money as well.
The only thing that keeps most people honest in a situation like this where the likelyhood of getting caught is practically nil, is the belief in a God that sees all and knows all.
Ride safe all,
Rick

[gotdurt]

Mental Health days man, thats what I call them.
:thumb:

Do you think it is okay to call in sick when you are in fact not sick?


If they are indeed intended to only be sick days, and they are use-it-or-lose-it PTO, then I'd save them for when I have a mild cold or bad allergies and enjoy. Otherwise, no, unless the employer is okay with it.

However, the company I work for has "personal time" instead of sick time, and in addition to vacation. You can use it as you see fit, and unlike vacation time, they are not accrued, but available immediately at the beginning of each year, and do not roll into the next year. Thus, I use them first (like for the AZ trip), then save a few days of vacation (I get 3 weeks) time for any illness that would keep me from going to work. Sweet deal, really... We also get additional time for bereavement, but it, of course, has to be legit - nice that it doesn't count against my other PTO though (had to use it twice already :-( ).

Edit: I should also point out that even with vacation/personal time, I give enough notice so that my absence is not a strain on my department, coworkers, and others that it may affect. If I call in, it's because I can't come in.

[Tourmeister]

:tab I find the loyalty comments interesting. We are talking about an employer/employee (contractual) relationship and not a personal relationship. The expectations are laid out in a contract and you are expected to abide by your agreements. The same is true for ALL parties to the contract. Loyalty is a non issue here unless one party to the contract comes to the table asking to make changes to the existing contract that are not already provided for in the contract. Then loyalty might count for the willingness of any party to accept any new conditions instead of using the changes as an excuse to get out of the contract.

:tab The fact that I may have acted in accordance with my contract for numerous years does not give rise to any unspoken claim to benefits not spelled out in the contract. Such performance is merely what I agreed to provide in return for the pay/benefits in the contract. To argue that I should become exempted from those terms after some indefinite period of satisfying them does not make sense :shrug:

:tab A personal relationship is TOTALLY a different creature and loyalty plays a major part of the dynamics. There are not always explicitly spelled out conditions for the relationship. There are no legally binding requirements on parties to such relationships. The formal act of marriage might be an exception, but in our current society, even that has lost much of its former importance.

[Sleepy Weasel]

At my previous employer, I had hundreds of hours of sick time accumulated. I never took a sick day, I guess I just felt too bad about it. And when I left the company, do you know what I got for never taking a sick day? Absolutely nothing. All that loyalty and nothing to show kindof hurts.

So... why did you leave? For the new job, or just to get out or what? Either way, expecting a pat on the back from a place you're leaving sounds kind of like walking out on your wife and being disappointed she didn't give you "one for the road."

On the other hand, if the reason you left was because they never showed they appreciated your loyalty, did you really think they would change their ways at the end?

[SV650rider]

Well IMO, if you work for a company like mine ya'lls opinions might be different. Sounds like most people here have office jobs. I work for a crappy contractor, by this I will explain. When you are only given 40hrs vacation after 2 years (They lied saying after 1 year), absolutely no sick days or personal days, and they take holidays away from you (Currently only 5 days) you tend to have a bad perspective on the company. They screw you, you screw them. Its a sorry attitude but when they do stuff like that to the employees, its hard to have a good attitude about the company. If the company gave a crap about the employees, then no I wouldn't take sick days just to take them.

* Solved my little problem though, going in the Navy. :mrgreen: No calling in sick when your not!

[DFW_Warrior]

Either way, expecting a pat on the back from a place you're leaving sounds kind of like walking out on your wife and being disappointed she didn't give you "one for the road."

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: Sorry but for some reason that is just really funny to me right now!!!! LOL

[mikeofcontex]

There are many rushing/flying issues in the replies. There's a bit here and a piece there. It is said that he who forms the definitions wins the debate. Depending on the "good will" of the employer, the definitions seem to move quite a bit and are mostly controlled by the employer. That form of "contract" is one-sided at best. Yes, I know, I am free to find the employer of my choice.

To take a step back in a way that we know TM to do, the underlying issue is "fair" compensation. To one, sick time or PTO is compensation. To another it's something else. Many employers want to have it both ways; it's compensation, but you lose it at the end of the year. That is a strange definition of compensation.

I struggle with the idea of "lying" painted with a broad brush since we would all tell a big one if we were hiding our children from trouble.

How should it be? The worker is worthy of his wages (oops, an external source of truth). If all the benefits given/offered/paid to an employe are compensation, then there should be no way for an employer to retain the compensation. If they can be rolled forward, they should be fully paid at some point. If it's not compensation, then I must ask, what is it?

One of the reasons that unions occur is that a tension builds over time between the owner/employer and the employee. I believe that compensation is the first source of tension.

Bottom line, it's complex and I can't provide a simple answer.

[Tourmeister]

Well IMO, if you work for a company like mine ya'lls opinions might be different. Sounds like most people here have office jobs. I work for a crappy contractor, by this I will explain. When you are only given 40hrs vacation after 2 years (They lied saying after 1 year), absolutely no sick days or personal days, and they take holidays away from you (Currently only 5 days) you tend to have a bad perspective on the company. They screw you, you screw them. Its a sorry attitude but when they do stuff like that to the employees, its hard to have a good attitude about the company. If the company gave a crap about the employees, then no I wouldn't take sick days just to take them.

* Solved my little problem though, going in the Navy. :mrgreen: No calling in sick when your not!

:tab What they are doing is not sticking by their agreements. I totally agree that doing so is a crappy thing to do. Now, it might very well be that you feel or think you have no choice but to accept their behavior because the alternative of looking for other work is more hassle than staying put. However, if you continue to work for them after they make such changes, then you have implicitly agreed to such changes. Otherwise, their changes would be grounds for you to leave the job. So it is still not justification for unethical behavior on the part of the employee.

:tab I do have an "office" job. However, I work directly for my customers. You want to talk about people changing things on the fly...?? :lol2: :doh: They are forever trying to do things outside our contract, get me to do them "favors" blah blah blah... They totally expect me to be 100% loyal to them and forgive any faults of theirs, but it is a one way street. I am ALWAYS reminding them of their contractual agreements and that what they are asking is either prohibited by the contract or outside the scope of the contract. I am not ugly about it, and as a result, the majority of my customers have relaxed and we now have very good ongoing working relationships. A few others are no longer customers and they are not missed in the slightest ;-)

[Tourmeister]

To take a step back in a way that we know TM to do, the underlying issue is "fair" compensation. To one, sick time or PTO is compensation. To another it's something else. Many employers want to have it both ways; it's compensation, but you lose it at the end of the year. That is a strange definition of compensation.

[minor snippage...]

How should it be? The worker is worthy of his wages (oops, an external source of truth). If all the benefits given/offered/paid to an employe are compensation, then there should be no way for an employer to retain the compensation. If they can be rolled forward, they should be fully paid at some point. If it's not compensation, then I must ask, what is it?

:tab Excellent point. That is one of the things that should be CLEARLY spelled out in the employment contract. Contracts create property rights, EVEN WHEN THEY ARE "AT WILL" CONTRACTS! Vested property rights cannot be revoked willy nilly. That is fruad/theft and is actionable under the law.

One of the reasons that unions occur is that a tension builds over time between the owner/employer and the employee. I believe that compensation is the first source of tension.

:tab Having studied law, I think that THE biggest factor is a fuzzy understanding on ALL parties regarding the legal nature of contractual relationships. No where in public education does the average student get any instruction regarding the ins/outs of contract law, or even the basics. This is gross neglect (maybe even intentional... :wary:) on the part of our education system at a fundamental level. It is a basic premise of our legal system that ignorance of the law is no excuse. If that is the case, then it seems to me that an education system funded by the very government imposing that obligation of knowledge should be bound to provide that knowledge!! Instead of educating students about how our laws actually work and the principles upon which they rest, our system spends a LOT of time on subjects that have little to no practical application to the daily life of a citizen.

:tab The concepts of contract law are the foundation upon which our society rests. It is the idea that people are to be bound by their agreements and that breaching their agreements carries penalties. THIS is what provides stability in a society. When people are allowed to breach agreements without consequence, we lose predictability and the ability to make plans based on the expected behavior of others. A civilization beyond mere sustenance requires cooperation among the members of that civilization. Contracts are the very life blood of such cooperation!

[SV650rider]

:tab What they are doing is not sticking by their agreements. I totally agree that doing so is a crappy thing to do. Now, it might very well be that you feel or think you have no choice but to accept their behavior because the alternative of looking for other work is more hassle than staying put. However, if you continue to work for them after they make such changes, then you have implicitly agreed to such changes. Otherwise, their changes would be grounds for you to leave the job. So it is still not justification for unethical behavior on the part of the employee.

When an employee hires on with the information the new company gives them, sure you have to take their word for it. BUT, when you find out only days after its too late, you've quit your last job. In my case, I dont have college yet, so its not like I can just go get another good paying job on the whim. So someone in my situation just has to sit back and take it till another opportunity arises. I dont see why it would be unethical for an employee to do the same thing that the company does. They set the example, employees are influenced by those examples be them right or wrong. Sure they can fire you for leaving and not being sick, but if you fart they can still fire you. I dunno, maybe I'm the only one that thinks this way. If the company is good to the employees, the employees will "somewhat" be good to the company (Can't speak for everyone) despite little incidents.

[Tourmeister]

When an employee hires on with the information the new company gives them, sure you have to take their word for it. BUT, when you find out only days after its too late, you've quit your last job. In my case, I dont have college yet, so its not like I can just go get another good paying job on the whim. So someone in my situation just has to sit back and take it till another opportunity arises. I dont see why it would be unethical for an employee to do the same thing that the company does. They set the example, employees are influenced by those examples be them right or wrong. Sure they can fire you for leaving and not being sick, but if you fart they can still fire you. I dunno, maybe I'm the only one that thinks this way. If the company is good to the employees, the employees will "somewhat" be good to the company (Can't speak for everyone) despite little incidents.

:tab Well, I can only speak from my moral perspective. From my perspective, two wrongs don't make a right :shrug: If someone steals from me, that does not give me a right to steal from them. It merely gives me a right to seek the return of my property (or lost compensation) informally, to blow it off if the hassle is more than I think it is worth, or to get the authorities involved. In your case, it sounds as if the hassle factor was high enough that you decided to blow it off ;-)

:tab I should point out that even though I don't think anyone "owes" anything to another beyond what is laid out in the agreement, this does NOT mean that I am against employers or employees going above and beyond. Loyalty DOES matter when things hit the fan. However, loyalty must be earned, just as with friendships. If an employer has a history of treating employees well and going the extra mile for them, then if times get tough, the employees are much more likely to stand by the company if possible. However, if you have an employer that squeezes their workers at every opportunity and takes them for granted, then there will no doubt be undesired consequences down the road if the employer is ever in a position where he has to depend on the graciousness of his employees. Thus where I work, we have always sought to do right by our people. You just have to watch for those that will happily take advantage of you without giving in return. Those folks get the bare minimum after they have shown a history of unrepentant abuse of privilege or favor.

[Elistan]

The official policy of the company I work for:

Occasional illness days

•Provides paid time off for personal illness or injury or to care for a family member who is ill or injured
•Associates receive 10 days each calendar year (two days can be used for personal reasons with prior approval
from manager). For a part-time associate, one occasional illness day equals 1⁄5 regularly scheduled weekly hours.
•You accrue a pro rata portion of your annual amount of occasional illness days each pay period.
•There is no carryover from one year to the next, and no payment for any accrued but unused occasional illness days.
•Commissioned associates and associates in Bands 0–3 do not accrue occasional illness days.


My previous company, we had PTO days. I liked the PTO system much, much better. It was very fair - with "sick days" there's plenty of people who would call in when they weren't sick, or if they're sick a lot they get many more days off than those of us who tend to be healtier. Granted, being sick sucks depending on what it is, but it's still an unfair burden, IMO, on the people who are at work. Plus, a PTO system is much better from a planning POV because you pretty much know how many days (although not which specific ones) a person will be out of work.

Plus, being a relatively healthy person, the PTO system gave me much greater opportunities to do things outside of work.

As it stands, now being in a "sick day" situation, I'm much more likely to call in for something that would have been minor enough to come in for during my PTO days. I've yet to actually call in when I was feeling fine, although I've been very tempted some mornings.

[leeroy]

I stopped paying for sick days years ago.Attendance improved as well as morale for the employees that were not abusing the sick day program.This is not to say that if someone has serious illness they do not get paid.I deal with that on case by case.The flu and colds, suck it up and come to workI have to.

[hetkind]

I am a federal employee, until 1985, you could use your extra sick days at retirement to increase your service time for pension use, you would add your unused sick days to your time in service to compute your pension.

When they changed the system from a pension system to social security plus a 401k system plus a new, much smaller pension piece, they eliminated the sick day feature. Also, when the changed systems the amounts would only be the same if the employee put 5% of total pay into the 401k system. So to stay in the same place, new employees took a basically a 5% across the board pay cut.

My retirement is part of the national debt also...

Howard

[Squidward]

For clarification, I accrue 4 hours of sick time and 6.66 hours of vacation time per month that are effectively two different PTO accounts. Our company/union agreement also allows hourly employees to miss 12 hours of work per month unpaid without being in violation of the attendance policy. That said, I never use the 12 hours. As for using the PTO, I always give sufficient advanced notice prior to taking a full day or days off. On those days that I just want to bail early, I always go to my management first and ensure that I am not impacting the work flow prior to using sick or vacation time to make a short day.

[Tourmeister]

My retirement is part of the national debt also...

Howard

So is your current income ;-)

[bluedogok]

For the last few years that I was at my company in OKC I tended to use my sick time up even though I accrued them at a pretty good rate since I had been there a total of over 10 years. I would get sinus infections a few times a year, which I later found out was due to the mold in the house that I was living in. I also occasionally took them if I did needed a "mental day" but I didn't really do anything but stay at home and rest up. When I did take those it was at times when I was not under a deadline or some other kind of "dead period' right after a big deadline but most of the time I would take comp time instead of overtime. The new firm here just has personal days in addition to vacation.

[P-Ratt]

We don't get "sick" days, so if I miss, I don't get paid.:doh: I too am in this position. I must think things through. :ponder:

To the question of loyalty:
I believe that loyalty should be rewarded, not abused. If you employ a loyal worker on whatever level, you should recognize them for it. If nothing else, they should be thanked in some way, be it private or public.

[Sleepy Weasel]

The flu and colds, suck it up and come to workI have to.

Of course, I've always been a big fan of the <edited>jerks</edited> who come dragging into the office sick... can't pull their <expletive deleted> weight because they don't <expletive deleted> feel up to it, and in the process they get everyone else in the <expletive deleted> office sick. Then at the end of the year, they get this nice <expletive deleted> pat on the back for good <expletive deleted> attendance and being such a <expletive deleted> "team player." I just can't <expletive deleted> tell you how much I appreciate those guys.

And moderators, I did my own editing... you're welcome.

[Tourmeister]

:tab Yeah, being self employed like Leeroy, I to get no vacation or sick leave. Also, there are only three of us in the office. If one of us is gone and it gets busy, it can quickly become a nightmare! I don't like being the one left alone and thus I try not to be responsible for the others being left shorthanded.

[leeroy]

I feel your pain.I find that whining helps.

[klb1122]

So... why did you leave? For the new job, or just to get out or what? Either way, expecting a pat on the back from a place you're leaving sounds kind of like walking out on your wife and being disappointed she didn't give you "one for the road."

On the other hand, if the reason you left was because they never showed they appreciated your loyalty, did you really think they would change their ways at the end?

I left because I had graduated college a year and a half before and quickly found there was no room for moving up or increasing my salary where I was at. I left for much more money.

It's not so much that I wanted a pat on the back on the way out, it would have been nice to have a little recognition while I was there though, not that I would ever expect that though. It doesn't even have to be much... a $10 Starbucks gift card or something! A little bit would go a long way in my book. :mrgreen:

It is frustrating when those around me would be burning their sick days as soon as the accumulated them (not that they were sick) and I would have to take up for their slack.

[SV650rider]

:doh: I too am in this position. I must think things through. :ponder:

To the question of loyalty:
I believe that loyalty should be rewarded, not abused. If you employ a loyal worker on whatever level, you should recognize them for it. If nothing else, they should be thanked in some way, be it private or public.

+1 This is all I was getting at. If your a hard worker and the company see's it, then they should motivate you in whatever way to keep you there. It seems that companies that I have been at in the past don't seem to think that way. They would rather hire another Joe Blow to replace your butt instead of recognizing your hard work and compensate you being as they offer little to begin with.

Scott, I do hold high morals, as I used to never call in sick just because until this job. I work hard and got rewarded for it by a promotion, then it was stripped from me due to something that was out of my hands. When I was demoted, I got bumped all the way back to bottom pay. One day I was good enough to make Leadman, then the next day I'm nothing to them.

Could you make a poll on this thread on whether people use sick days for being sick or personal days? Thanks

[donroger1]

Several years ago, we finally talked our employer into this type of time off.
He listed it as Personal/Sick time.
We get 4 days a year with no carry over or accumulation.
The first time someone took a "Personal Day", he hit the roof.
Major policy rewrite and they became "Sick Days" only.

I can usually have a morning Dr appt. and still bill a full day without difficulty.
If the office charges me a partial sick day for a Doctor's visit, I usually tell them to make it a full day and finish the day running my own errands.

I never call in sick when I am not sick.
I do end up using sick days at their discretion.
By the end of the year, they are gone anyway.

[ruger9mm]

I feel it is ok to call in sick when you are not as long as you are not abusing it.
I work for Harris County and we are aloud up to 480 hours of sick time with three family/personal days. I have called in but it was for taking care of other business. I also need to be careful when I do "sick or not" because I am unable to work my off duty jobs for 24hrs.:rider: :rider:

[Hood Ornament]

:tab Yeah, being self employed like Leeroy, I to get no vacation or sick leave. Also, there are only three of us in the office. If one of us is gone and it gets busy, it can quickly become a nightmare! I don't like being the one left alone and thus I try not to be responsible for the others being left shorthanded.


Actually, being self employed means you can take as much sick/vacation time as you want. So long as you don't mind not making any money. :lol2:

[Steve O Chap]

I'm a project manager at a major REP in downtown Houston. Last year our call center had an attrition rate of 89%... essentially we had to replace our entire call center over the course of the year. Normal call center attrition by a center the size of ours is around 40-45% a year. At the beginning of this year I was given the project of reducing our attrition rate by 50%. This was an extremely optimistic goal, one we didn't expect to hit.

Through all my research and consultations I've found that the number one reason we were losing people was due to poor attendance (we have a strict policy on it, no exceptions). Without changing our attendance policy, through the projects and enhancements we've made with our 'employee experience' we've reduced attrition by 49% thus far and we've still got our historically best 3 months ahead of us!

So, by saying all of that what I really meant to say was that happy employees are better employees and are more committed to the company. Small things go along way to make your employees feel like the company is committed to their professional and personal well-being. :mrgreen:

Sounds like many people here aren't feeling that sort of buy-in from their companies...

[bedlam]

Of course, I've always been a big fan of the <edited>jerks</edited> who come dragging into the office sick... can't pull their <expletive deleted> weight because they don't <expletive deleted> feel up to it, and in the process they get everyone else in the <expletive deleted> office sick. Then at the end of the year, they get this nice <expletive deleted> pat on the back for good <expletive deleted> attendance and being such a <expletive deleted> "team player." I just can't <expletive deleted> tell you how much I appreciate those guys.

And moderators, I did my own editing... you're welcome.



:rofl: :rofl:

Yeah, I resemble that remark...

[h2000fb]

I work for Harris County and we are aloud up to 480 hours of sick time with three family/personal days. :rider: :rider:

480 hours? That is 12weeks or 3 months!!! And, they give you vacation on top of that???

[ruger9mm]

We accrue sick time at roughly at 78 hours per year until you hit 480.
We accrue comp time for holidays or overtime until we hit 240 Hours, then we get paid overtime for anything above 240. Vacation time is based on years of service, 5 weeks after 25 years, 4 weeks after 15, 3 weeks after 5,
and I am at year 24.:mrgreen:

[bushwhacker]

We accrue comp time for holidays or overtime until we hit 240 Hours, then we get paid overtime for anything above 240.

Comp time limitations are a function of the DOL Fair Labor Standards Act and not company policy.

Do you think it is okay to call in sick when you are in fact not sick?


No, it is lying.

+1.

If company policy (your employment contract terms) permit the authorized use of sick time in only limited circumstances (your illness for example) then using sick time in any other circumstances is also stealing. It is accepting payment under fraudulent circumstances.

The city of houston grants up to 3 personal days to use as you wish in the year following any year when you took no or limited sick time.


Bottom line, it's complex and I can't provide a simple answer.

I do not see any complexity. If it is a violation of company policy then it is lying and stealing, plain and simple.

Don't get me wrong. I am not saying that I have never lied or stolen in my life but I am saying that I did not delude myself into believing that it was something else because of the circumstances.

Sometimes payback is sweet even if it does involve lying!

-

[ruger9mm]

As stated to me at one time, vacation, medical & dental insurance etc... are all benefits. Employers do not have to offer them but in order to attract qualified workers it is a necessity. I have in the past taken a sick day when I wasn't sick " but I never considered the notion was I stealing" I now use my personal days and save the sick ones.

[sarge33rd]

Howdy,

Was cruising another forum and came across the topic of sick days. The question is what do you think of using them as days off when you are not sick? In this particular case, it was to go riding. Opinions?

Adios,

Generally speaking, I'd say; no. It isnt OK to call in sick when youo arent.

That said, if the boss is a jerk and you get ZERO personal time or comp time. Or sick days not used, are "lost", then I think the policy is setup to accomodate their use. (Some employers...the smart ones IMHO), do not limit the number of sick days which can be accrued over time. This practice, has led to some i know, having accumulated 40, 50, even 60 days of accrued sick time available. What does this do? It incentivizes the employee to NOT call in when they arent sick, and it allows for that employee to save those days for a catastrophe should one arise. It serves both parties..the employer and the employee.

Conversely, to say you get for ex, 5 sick days annually, and at the end of the year, those days not used are forfeit/lost....simply encourages the employee to "save" them until Christmas time, then suddenly come down with "the flu".

[sherob]

My new job has PTO... I get 21 days PTO every year plus 4 floaters. When I had traditional SD's, I'd use them or lose em at EOY. They are a benefit... I would call and say "I won't be in today." No lies. :trust:

[Elistan]

I do not see any complexity. If it is a violation of company policy then it is lying and stealing, plain and simple.

What if the company policy simply says "Provides paid time off for personal illness or injury or to care for a family member who is ill or injured." If there's no official definition of "illness" or "injury," what then?

[Sleepy Weasel]

I do not see any complexity. If it is a violation of company policy then it is lying and stealing, plain and simple.

Since most companies large enough to have "sick time" are also large enough to have a corporate code of ethics, and those codes typically prohibit "falsifying records," then calling in sick when you're not is a violation.

On the other hand, calling in saying "I want to take a sick day" is not the same as saying "Uh, I'm sick."
:mrgreen:

But it's still wrong.

[wbrisett]

I call it a grey area. For example, I take a sick day when I stay home and my daughter is sick. I'm not. Yet, I take a sick day. My manager knows I'm not the sick person and she is OK with that. Granted I'm not out taking a pleasure ride, but I'm also not sick.

The reality of business today is this. Corporations want your undying loyalty to the nth degree. They want you to work 60+ hours a week, yet, when times get tough they make "business decisions" and let people go. I've reached a point where I'm no longer willing to make a commitment to a company like that any more. I'll work the 40 hours they want me to and I'll work hard during those hours, but I don't live to work. I want a life. Actually, the reality is, I'm doing more freelance work and sitting at an office I hope will soon be a thing of the past. Then I make the decision to eat or to ride, work for the mortgage or goof off. No sick days period.

Wayne

[sherob]

So taking a sick day, which is a paid benefit, when you're not sick is wrong... it is unethical... you are stealing. :doh:

Do you make personal copies at work on the ol copy machine? Stealing :trust: Do you use the fax machine? Stealing :trust: Where did that pen come from in your car? Stealing :trust: Long distance phone calls... the list can go on and on :rofl:

[Tourmeister]

The reality of business today is this. Corporations want your undying loyalty to the nth degree. They want you to work 60+ hours a week, yet, when times get tough they make "business decisions" and let people go. I've reached a point where I'm no longer willing to make a commitment to a company like that any more. I'll work the 40 hours they want me to and I'll work hard during those hours, but I don't live to work. I want a life. Actually, the reality is, I'm doing more freelance work and sitting at an office I hope will soon be a thing of the past. Then I make the decision to eat or to ride, work for the mortgage or goof off. No sick days period.

:tab That cuts both ways. As an employer, I have had employees that seemed to think I should have treated them like they were the last worker on the Earth, forgiven any and all abuses of privilege, payed abundantly and never questioned their work ethic :lol2: I have had people that acted as if they had a right to their job regardless of them keeping up their end of the deal to actually engage in productive activities :doh: What I see as the reality is that it is a two way street. Employees and Employers come together for mutual benefit. Like any relationship, it can be good or bad. It can be one where either side extorts and abuses the other, and there are a host of other negative aspects that are possible. It is up to BOTH parties to ensure that they are having their expectations met. If not, then there is no reason for either party to be forced to stay in the relationship. However, getting out of a relationship is not always cost free :trust: Some contracts have early termination penalties. The time to worry about that is BEFORE you get into the contract, not after.

So taking a sick day, which is a paid benefit, when you're not sick is wrong... it is unethical... you are stealing. :doh:

Do you make personal copies at work on the ol copy machine? Stealing :trust: Do you use the fax machine? Stealing :trust: Where did that pen come from in your car? Stealing :trust: Long distance phone calls... the list can go on and on :rofl:

:tab It is a CONDITIONAL paid benefit ;-) The condition being that you, or as is often the case someone directly under your care, is sick.

:tab Much of what you mention is in fact stealing and in many cases can be grounds for termination. However, if you happen to work for the Federal Government (as I did for several years), they will often encourage such misappropriation so that they can justify next year's budget request :doh:

[AusFletch]

480 hours? That is 12weeks or 3 months!!! And, they give you vacation on top of that???

I currently have 1761 sick hours accrued along with 175.5 holiday hours and 288.56 vacation hours. It was even better before I was promoted to management when I could accrue 120 hours of compensatory time every year, too. :mrgreen:

[mikeofcontex]

:tab However, if you happen to work for the Federal Government (as I did for several years), they will often encourage such misappropriation so that they can justify next year's budget request :doh:

Now, your cynicism has muddied the water.

[bushwhacker]

So taking a sick day, which is a paid benefit, when you're not sick is wrong... it is unethical... you are stealing. :doh:

Do you make personal copies at work on the ol copy machine? Stealing :trust: Do you use the fax machine? Stealing :trust: Where did that pen come from in your car? Stealing :trust: Long distance phone calls... the list can go on and on :rofl:

Yep. They are all stealing.

And I got no problem with you pilfering from your company, but don't wrap yourself in the robes of justice and call it a fair benefit.

I have been known to do it on occasion when it is for a charity ride I am working on or some other charity benefit (that is the way I justify it - I am not getting a personal benefit plus I get my supervisor's permission which really is not a defense because you can not legally get permission to steal from a third party).

But if it is for me, then I buy my pens at Walmart and make my copies at kinko's, I have a fax machine at home and I have never made a personal long distance call at work.

Now before you think I am claiming any moral or ethical high ground, this is purely self preservation. I work for the Houston Police Department and I am a member of the Texas State Bar Association.

The few dollars you save from pilfering little items or the extra time off you get for using sick time when you are not sick is simply not worth my job or my bar card.


-

[Lil Squid]

I agree with the fundamental premise. Taking a sick day if you or a family member in your care is not sick is theft. Scott is right, from employment law perspective sick days are a conditional benefit - offered to accomodate the (almost) inevitable for most mammals, that every once in a while we get sick. A strict attendance policy without such allowance would be absurd, a policy that clearly outlines criteria sick days or allows for PTO is best; however questioning the definition of "injury or illness" is like arguing about the definition of "sex" - not even I can come up with a scenario where sitting on your bum in front of the TV qualifies, unless you choke on a pretzel of course.. :mrgreen:

However, I do disagree about a couple of statements made. First, the more professional the position, the less employer usually cares about compliance and the more about whether the job is getting done. As a professional, I am not paid overtime and frequently work 12-hour days and weekends for weeks in a row; on the flip-side, once the deal is done, nobody counts exactly how many days off I took and for what reason, so long as my total hours at the end of the year look good.

I also resent the implication that only people who believe in God are capable of being honest and playing by the rules in situations "where the likelyhood of getting caught is practically nil." It's nice to know that I am not capable of being moral and honest when there is no big brother looking over my shoulder, since obviously character, upbringing and ethics have nothing to do with that. :angel:

[bushwhacker]

I also resent the implication that only people who believe in God are capable of being honest and playing by the rules in situations "where the likelyhood of getting caught is practically nil." It's nice to know that I am not capable of being moral and honest when there is no big brother looking over my shoulder, since obviously character, upbringing and ethics have nothing to do with that. :angel:

I missed that part.

My concepts of right and wrong are based on personal ethics and have nothing to do with God, religion, or morality.

[Squidward]

I used 4 sick hours just yesterday. We were slow at work and I felt like leaving. I asked my boss if they'd miss me if I took a half day by using some sick time and he said "we'd prefer you left....then we won't have to put up with you." :doh: I must be a thief since I wasn't sick.

Then again, our absentee policy allows us lowly hourly wage slaves to use our sick time and vacation time as we see fit.....so maybe I'm not a thief....merely using the benefit extended to me by my employer.

[Don Ricardo]

My Masters have decreed that there should be two categories of time off:regular and premium. Regular time off comes out of vacation time and Premium is reserved for serious illnesses. I have to use up my "vacation" time before I get into the "sick" time.

It seems to me that taking a "mental health" day is nothing to feel guilty about under these circumstances.

[DFW_Warrior]

My concepts of right and wrong are based on personal ethics and have nothing to do with God, religion, or morality.

+1. Religion alone, does not make a man know right and wrong. It is merely a rough guide that some of us need more than others. My concepts of right and wrong are also based 100% on personal ethics.

And it's my feeling that this world would be a much better place if more people did that. It's an amazing concept really, taking responsibility for your actions instead of making excuses for them. Nah, it will never work. It's too shocking for this world.

[piglet]

I worked for the railroad for 37 years, 34 of them I was an engineer. For 32 of them we were on call 7 days a week. We were on regular jobs that were seven day jobs. There were no engineer jobs that were not 7 day jobs. The agreement was that an extra board was provided with engineers so that you could have some time off. Most of the time you had to lay off sick just to get some time off. So, most of us were turned into lairs by the the company so that we could get some rest days.
I am not for it, but have done it time after time.:trust:

[sharkey]

I got an idea: we seem a bit divided w/ the issue and it seems like it favors those believing it is theft.

How bout you just do what is ok at your work so no one gets fired. I still see it as a benefit and when I retire, I plan to use most of the 10weeks of sick time I have.

The problem w/ personal ethics is it varies. Look at this thread. I need a constant in my life and to me that is the one true God. I know, I'm weak and uneducated for believing in such things. :-P

[kurt]

One of our people called out sick this weekend. One shouldn't get one's picture on the front page of the paper when too sick to come to work.....

[gotdurt]

One of our people called out sick this weekend. One shouldn't get one's picture on the front page of the paper when too sick to come to work.....

:lol2: Now that's funny right there...

[CBAT]

One of our people called out sick this weekend. One shouldn't get one's picture on the front page of the paper when too sick to come to work.....

Is he really yours? :eek2: That's too funny. We had one call off sick and then show up at a softball tournament at Kreig Fields when HQ was there. Yes he got caught and received due punishment.

[kurt]

Is he really yours? :eek2: That's too funny. We had one call off sick and then show up at a softball tournament at Kreig Fields when HQ was there. Yes he got caught and received due punishment.

Yeah, but he's applying with you guys. I'd like to give him my top recommendation now. :-P

[CBAT]

Applying and getting in the top 50 out of expected 4,000+ are two different matters. ;-) If you want to PM his name I can make sure he gets the attention he was seeking in this photo. :lol:

[kurt]

Applying and getting in the top 50 out of expected 4,000+ are two different matters. ;-) If you want to PM his name I can make sure he gets the attention he was seeking in this photo. :lol:

Buck, Leonard, Cox, Crane and the list goes on. This guy is a shoe-in. :rofl:

[CBAT]

Yes, they do slip through sometimes. :rofl:

[scar04]

One of our people called out sick this weekend. One shouldn't get one's picture on the front page of the paper when too sick to come to work.....

Wow, all I have to say is wow:doh: