"Please" learn from the mistakes of others

[Hacksaw]

Me and a buddy met and rode with new guy yesterday with tragic consequences. A couple of days ago I posted a thread to a local board asking if anyone would like to join me for a ride (my first time to post for a ride). I was going to drop off a loaner bike and pick mine up from the shop. It would be around a 225 mile round trip, I stated that I normally ride 5 to 10 miles over speed limit. A new fellow (Jim) posted that he was interested. The next morning we met for breakfast My buddy showed up on his Yamaha FJR 1300, and Jim showed up on a new Honda VTX 1300. Nicest guy in the world. I spoke with him before we left about how we rode as a group. He seem to know the routine better that me. The one thing we did "NOT" discus is don't try to keep up and don't ride over your head (because today wasn't that kind of ride). We rode to the shop and Jim displayed himself as a very disciplined rider. After picking up my bike we stopped for lunch. We had the best time visiting and even talking about people riding over their head (but not pertaining to this ride). They were interested in taking a different route back to catch some better roads (hills, twisty, rural). So that's just what we did. The first farm to market (FM) road we took was 20 miles. We took in at a slightly spirited pace. Jim did just fine. When we stopped at the next cross road. I asked if everyone was alright (comfortable). They said yes and Jim had a big smile from ear to ear. I could tell he was really having fun. The next FM road we find is way better (sharper curves, bigger hills, perfect road surface). The first pass we get behind two slow moving trucks. I don't pass them because I don't want Jim to feel pressured to do the same. We came to the end of it and turned around. Going back we had clear road ahead of us. I picked up the pace a notch or two from the previous FM road. Were half way through it when my buddy flashes his lights at me and turns around. I turn around a go back to find that Jim didn't make it around one of the curves. It was about a 180 deg turn going down hill, He had made it through the apex before leaving the road. No sign of locking up brakes on the pavement. We didn't see the accident my buddy just noticed that he didn't come out of the turn. Jim took out a metal pole with the black and yellow striped caution sign. He was wearing HJC flip face helmet, leather riding jacket, leather gloves and leather M/C boots. He was taken to a Houston hospital by life flight. I located his cell phone and was able to contact his wife. I hope and pray that you all never have to do this. DPS have to do it all of the time, I don't know how they cope. Last report was he suffered a broken leg and 4 broke ribs. He was moved from ICU to intermediate care. I'll never own a flip face helmet, if you do or are considering it, please do some research. He suffered what seemed to be significant head trauma. If you do some research you will find that under certain conditions ones orbital socket gets shattered in these types of helmets. After seeing it first hand, I'm a true believer.

I don't think I'll post anymore rides and wished I'd not posted this one. I wouldn't have purposely got Jim hurt for all of the money in the world. But the fact is, if he would have been riding with some other people this probably wouldn't have happened. Or if we would have had a more in depth discussion before the ride. The older you get the harder it is to make true friends and Jim is the kind of guy you'd really like to get to know. Just speculating what went wrong we figure one of two things may have happened.

1. He scraped his running board and got spooked, and stood the bike up.

2. Was spooked by on coming traffic in the curve, and stood the bike up.

Please keep Jim and his family in your prayers....

[cdc]

Jeff -
Sorry to hear about your friend's accident. There is never a good time for an accident but this time of the year probably feels worst.
Hope your friend heals soon.
And do not blame yourself you did right by discussing pace, etc.

Camilo

[whoa]

We will keep Jim and his family in our prayers. It was good of you to place a call to his family, something nobody wants to do. Thanks for posting what you know about his condition.

It's understandable you want to take some blame, but each rider is in command and makes their own decisions. You guys did a good job on discussing routes and pace, which is more than some of us do. It is a good reminder.

[toliver]

Jeff,

I understand your feeling of guilt and responsibility. I led a ride earlier this year that resulted in one of our riders ending in a fatal crash. I had and still do have lots of guilt and grief. I'm always thinking " Had I done this, or had I done that" maybe things would have been different. In the end you cannot predict the future. I think everyone that rides with a passion understands and are willing to accept the risks associated. I too thought about not leading another ride but decided that part of the enjoyment is riding and sharing the experience with others. I will lead again.

Tom

[Hotboot]

It sounds like you did everything right, discussing group tactics and all. When he appeared to be a competent rider you felt comfortable riding with him. That does not happen every ride. I know you feel responsible, I would too.
Don't let this affect your future riding, or posting group rides.

Praying for a speedy recovery for Jim.

[jrwam1]

Do not give up on leading a ride, and though it is understandalbe that you feel bad, it is not your fault that he crashed. It sounds as though Jim was very capable, and just remember accidents are just that!

I month or so ago I was leading a couple of friends from work, they made a special trip from Ft. Worth to Plano just to go on a route that I had ridden before. We were half way through the route when one of my bud's did not make the second curve of a "S" sweeper.. he got bruised / broken ribs, bruised spleen, and a messed up bike. I felt bad too.

I'm would be curious about what Jims helmet hit and did he have the flip open? I don't know if a regular full face would have much difference if he hit the pole with the helmet.

I have a HJC Symax flip type helmet and I figure that a flip type would be no worse than a open face helemt. In most cases I figure it would be better than an open face in most crashes because your face is protected during the initial impact, even if the flip breaks after impact. But I am not helmet expert!
I just know I love the flip duing the summer! I can get a drink easily, talk, ect.
But if someone convinced me that the design was more dagerous than a open face.. I would give it up for a regular full face!

But again... It is not you fault about the accident, and I would follow you.. you sound like a very responsible leader/rider!

[Hacksaw]

I'm would be curious about what Jims helmet hit and did he have the flip open? I doubt that he had it up. He hadn't all day when riding and he seemed far too responsible to have had it up on this road. I'm almost inclined to say that his helmet hit the pole, but can't say for sure. The throttle was snapped off and the fuel tank was caved in in two places. The mark on his helmet was about 3 inches across and hit very hard.

[budzrex]

Hacksaw, not sure what you could have done different to change the outcome. It is tragic when any of us go down but I know the feeling
that something like to pace you set could have contributed. You said
you all discussed riding over your abilities so we will assume he wasnt. He
could have drug a floorboard hard enough to lever a wheel up and lost
traction. My thoughts and prayers will be with you both of you and
your families.

[leekellerking]

Me and a buddy met and rode with new guy yesterday with tragic consequences.

* * *

Please keep Jim and his family in your prayers....


Jeff:

The sad truth in life is that sometimes you can do everything right, and things still go wrong. I know that it is not much consolation at this time, but that is the truth. Your job is to do what you can to make the ride safe, but you are not -- and cannot be -- the insurer of another rider's safety.

You know, it is similar to our duty to share the Gospel. You can share your story with others, and hopefully God will work in their heart for them to accept Jesus as Lord. But YOU cannot save ANYONE. Only Jesus can do that.

God bless and have a blessed Christmas.

De colores,


Lee Keller King
Houston West Emmaus Walk No. 8

(I am embarrased to admit I can't remember my table, but I'm going to remedy that as soon as I get home).

[Hacksaw]

I just got off of the phone with Jims wife. They operated on his leg last night and put a pin in his femur. He sustained head trauma, facial lacerations and a bruised lung. He still in STICU but stable and has his factuality's about him. He's on a morphine pump and he controls the amount, which is getting less and less. They are thinking the head trauma will take care of itself (his body will absorb the blood in his head). He's in and out because of medication but it looks like his mind is sharp. After they get the results of one more CT scan, (which they feel will be fine) they will look into moving him into an intermediate care unit. I suppose this is a guarded type care. His wife doesn't want to "kill" us and welcomed us to come see him. So we will be getting up there ASAP...

Thank each and everyone of you for your support and most of all your Prayers.

[SRADkneedragger]

A word of caution about being "in front/ the ride captain/ leader" In all good conscience you should be responsible for "EVERYONE" behind you. And there fore should try to set a pace that matches ALL riders skills. You should make sure that there is a head count. Try to monitor everyones performance. But lets get real it's not gonna happen so you just do the best you can and hope everyone can keep their ego in check. I always seem to end being the "ride leader" and HATE the responsibility. I don't want to be responsible for anyone else, I want to run and play at my own pace! Unfortunatly Someone has to take resonsibility. A good freind pointed out a good solution:
% or degree of responsbility.
If you warned everyone if you screened everyone if you rode at a reasonable pace. Its probably 98% their fault and maybe 2% yours. On the other hand if you did'nt do any of those things and went tearing off high speed on a technical road then it might be 85% your fault and 15% theirs. You can't bear the full weight of others poor decisions/lack of experience. Maybe just a percentage

[bushwhacker]

A word of caution about being "in front/ the ride captain/ leader" In all good conscience you should be responsible for "EVERYONE" behind you.

On the other hand if you did'nt do any of those things and went tearing off high speed on a technical road then it might be 85% your fault and 15% theirs. You can't bear the full weight of others poor decisions/lack of experience. Maybe just a percentage

First, in my opinion it is never 85% the ride leader's fault that someone else had an accident unless he ran them off the road!

Sure, in hind sight there may always be some things a ride leader could have done differently to lessen the possibility of an accident but that still does not make the accident the ride leader's fault.

These people are adults and, as such, are responsible for their own actions.

First off, if the "ride leader" (I use this term in this instance only to indicate the guy in front because he is by no means a leader in any other sense of the word), tears off down a technical road at high speed with no knowledge of the experience of the riders behind him, I probably would not follow the BOZO, and I would definately not try to catch up.

This is where individual responsibility comes in. You either ride in the same direction at your own pace or you go the other way.

That being said, I give the spiel every time.

Ride at your own pace, you are not out here to impress anyone, just have a good time. I am not your parent and I will not tell you how to ride unless I think you are endangering others, but I also recommend that you do not run red lights or stop signs to keep up. If you fall behind the group will be waiting at the next turn.

And unless I know all the riders personally, I try to find out about experience level and I ask if everyone understands what is expected of them in a staggered formation and if they are riding tail gun (I prefer to have someone I know in the back).

If I have new or inexperienced riders (10,000 miles on an interstate does not make you an experienced rider) I either set the pace accordingly or break up into a couple of groups so one group can ride a "spirited" ride and the other can "smell the roses". Obviously this is not an option with three (3) bikes.

But also with three experienced riders and antecedent discussions indicated in this thread, I think each rider has to shoulder the full responsibility for his own ride.

From this point, I feel I have done pretty much everything I can do and it is now the rider's responsibility.

Luckily I have only led a few rides where anyone has gone down and no fatal or life threatening injuries and only one serious injury (broken bones and hospital stay).

Again, and emphatically, none of this really applies to a situation where I am leading new or inexperienced riders. They need to be brought along gently, so they enjoy the experience. Otherwise they will hate you and the motorcycle at the end of the day.

TO HACKSAW -

I think you did everything a responsible Ride Leader should and could do in any circumstances.

Hindsight is 20/20 and there is always something that could have been done differently which may have prevented the accident.

As has been stated I hope you will reconsider your decision about posting and leading rides in the future. There are a lot of people out there who are unwilling to ride unless they have someone to lead them and while this ride may have ended in tragic circumstances, there is still a need for conciencious, responsible people to help others along.

-

[pinecone]

That is indeed sad news. I remember y'all we're a happy lot getting ready to go back home. I'll be praying for the guy and keeping him in my thoughts.

Jeff, I urge you not to feel guilt for him going down. You did do the right thing by turning around to check on your friend. Maybe it was a turn that freaked him out. Maybe a deer went across his path. Maybe it was mechanical problems. Maybe it was mental error. Too many variables to ascertain why he went down. Be happy he is alive. I hope he gets back on the bike again.:pirate:

[FJR Bandit]

Jeff, first of all I wish Jim and his family a fast and full recovery. Second, you should not blame yourself and it sounds like Jim would not have wanted you too.

Back in Oct. I joined some local riders in New Mexico for a day ride in the mountains. On our way back, we got stuck behind some traffic. As the riders pass...the last one in front of me passing on a blind curve....I got a little behind. (I refuse to pass on a blind curve.) I started to picked up my pace in order to catch up to the group. To make a long story short....I came within 6" of going off the mountain. Had I gone another 7", I would not have wanted them to blame themself for something that happened to me. (It makes no difference if I did something wrong or just bad karma.) It was not their fault that I decided to pick up my pace. My point is that when we ride, we are in control of what we do and nobody else.

[Tourmeister]

Hacksaw,

:tab Your feelings are normal. However, as everyone else has pointed out, unltimately, you are NOT responsible, legally, morally, or in any other imagined manner. That does not mean you should not feel bad for Jim, but it does mean you should not be beating yourself up over his accident.

:tab A few years back, my Dad and I were out riding and enjoying a particularly beautiful fall late afternoon. We had many miles of riding together and our rules of the ride were well understood. I was on my VFR and he on his Vulcan 1500, so obviously riding styles were a bit different. But the rule was I always waited for him to catch up and he would not try to keep up. Nonetheless, on this day, he had a violent crash. He was in ICU for several days and we did not know for more than a week if he would recover from head injuries. I still recall the emotions that ravaged me during all that time and even after he finally made a full recovery. It took a while, but I finally worked through them. We don't know exactly what happened because there were no witnesses and he still has no memory of the actual wreck. I know it was not my fault and he totally agrees.

:tab I know this has to really be a drag since it happened on your first posted ride, but trust me when I say it is a major drag even on your 100th posted ride. I don't enjoy seeing people get hurt and their bikes torn up. Having done a LOT of rides as the leader, I have had a few people go down. Fortunately, no one has been seriously injured in any of those incidents other than my Dad (and that was only the two of us riding). While I cannot prove causation, I do believe that the preride discussions, and even discussions throughout the day, have helped. From the converstations you describe, I would say you guys were all in sync on what was expected of each of you.

:tab Once something has happened, there are endless things you can imagine having done differently that would have prevented the accident. You could have stayed home. You could have done the ride alone. You could have talked everything over so that everyone was totally clear on how they should ride. You could have done so many things... But none of the things you actually did were the cause of that accident! That is what matters, not the what ifs of your imagination! In the end, as a ride leader you can do everything perfect and someone can still have an accident. There is simply no way you can prevent it yourself. From your comments about him, I would imagine Jim would agree that his accident was not your fault. It might help for you to talk with him about it when he is able.

:tab Give yourself some time. Keep us posted about Jim's condition. When he is moved to a room where he can get mail, perhaps you could post the address here and we can all send him cards (or emails if the hopsital does that for their patients). You may find that Jim will want to ride again and would like having you as a riding partner!

[Hacksaw]

Tim and I just got back from visiting Jim in Herman Memorial In Houston. He was up trying to walk for the first time today, right before we got there. We discussed what happened that day to help fill in the gaps in his memory. He was apologizing for messing up the ride. He said he owed us one For taking care of him, to get help and what not. We said no way and for him to get better was all we needed.

"The wonderful news is, talking to Jim was just like talking to him before the accident"
His right eye orbital socket was damaged (broken) and he will have to undergo surgery to reconstruct it.

Thanks again guys and girls....

[Texas T]

I'll never own a flip face helmet, if you do or are considering it, please do some research. He suffered what seemed to be significant head trauma. If you do some research you will find that under certain conditions ones orbital socket gets shattered in these types of helmets. After seeing it first hand, I'm a true believer. I'm glad to hear he's doing much better. I'd like more details (a lot more) on this whole flip face issue. I did a lot of research prior to buying my Nolan and never encountered anything about being susceptible to eye socket damage.

[vfrhugh]

Hacksaw,
No matter what the circumstances, going to see Jim is the best thing you have done(other that staying with him at his wreck). Having experienced a little hospital time myself, I can’t tell you how much it helps to have a fellow rider visit. Trust me, well meaning friends and family don’t realize how much you don’t want to hear “how dangerous motorcycles are” and “how lucky you are to be alive” and “I’ll bet you won’t get on one again”. Non-riders just don’t get it. If Jim and you learn a little something from this it’s a good thing. Don’t get hung up in blame, just file it all away for later.
Hugh:rider:

[Hacksaw]

Thanks all. I'd like to add one thing. If you are ever around a downed rider make sure the their helmet goes to the hospital with them. This can aid the ER in determining injurys. :)

[Tourmeister]

How is Jim doing?

[Hacksaw]

How is Jim doing?
Not sure, I called and left a message with his wife around noon today and have not herd back. I'll call again tomorrow. As soon as I get an update I'll post it.:patriot:

[AustinTrophy]

I'm glad that things didn't turn out as bad as they could have. I don't have much to add that hasn't already been said, only to wish Jim a speedy recovery and to ask you not to blame yourself. I think that if you can help Jim heal, then you will heal yourself along the way.

[Plane Dr]

Hacksaw
Don't worry I am the slow guy sometimes and have had an issue or two myself. Never would I put blame on the leader. My best memory of that was trying to catch a buddy in the rain on a twisty road in the mountains. He was on a Hawk GT650 I was on my Gamma (RG500). Couldn't catch him for nuthin. Even when I followed his lines, my bike, as well as the rider, couldn't keep his pace. Good lesson in torque versus HP and smooth vs diving in. Oh well, the guy on the GSXR1000 couldn't catch either of us!

As for the flip face. I have read that they transmit the loads from impacts differently due to the hinge point on the forehead, makes sense. Due to the dynamics wearers are prone to eye socket (orbital) damage. Nothing really scientific though.

Glad Jim is doing better I hope he continues to improve and his wife lets him keep the bike!

[Hacksaw]

He had surgery on his eye orbital socket and sinus cavity. His sinus cavity sustained more damage that first thought. The surgery went well. He's resting and in a lot of pain after this last surgery so they have him sedated pretty good. His wife is some what down because she feels like their back to square one. She knows better, but before the surgery he had improved to the point that she felt like her old Jim was back. It is my understanding that if all continues to go well he will be going home the end of next week. :thumb:

[Hotboot]

Thanks for the update Jeff. Hope he is home soon, and I feel for his wife.

[Tourmeister]

:tab Just a thought, but perhaps you might point Jim's wife to this thread. Often it makes the family feel better to know there is a community of friends standing with them at times like this. It might also help her understand his passion for riding if she doesn't "get it". She's in a tough spot. Seeing your loved ones in the hospital makes it hard to keep a positive outlook for a good future. The uncertainty can really get to you. I recall all those feelings being VERY intense when my Dad was in the hospital and in critical condition for a few days after an accident. Since he and I work together I was a little freaked about the possibility of losing him AND potentially having my job in jeopardy! It all worked out though.

[Hacksaw]

GREAT NEWS! JIM (JP) is back at home and he's posting on the web. :thumb:

[db]

GREAT NEWS! JIM (JP) is back at home and he's posting on the web. :thumb:


Very good news! Thanks for posting.:bigokay:

[Tourmeister]

So the sinus related surgeries went well? Good to hear he's home. That is a huge step to getting back to some kind of "normal" life :thumb:

[AustinTrophy]

:tab Just a thought, but perhaps you might point Jim's wife to this thread.
Awesome news! I'm glad he's home, that's the best place to recover. Hospital rooms don't really make for a comfortable environment to heal in. I second Scott's thought above, and since you said that Jim is back online I think he would benefit from joining TWT. I don't think he'd find a more caring, supportive group of people anywhere (as long as he's not trying to cut BBQ or pie out of his diet - this is the wrong place to look for that kind of support :eat: :rofl: ).

[whoa]

It might also help her understand his passion for riding if she doesn't "get it". She's in a tough spot. Seeing your loved ones in the hospital makes it hard to keep a positive outlook for a good future.

Excellent point. I was showing my wife the route I took yesterday (she didn't know where San Saba was) and she said I shouldn't be riding that far by myself. The rider has no clue how the non-rider thinks, and vice-versa. So each needs help understanding the other side.

Your point about seeing a loved one injured was emphasized on The Evel Knievel Story (History Channel). It was interesting seeing Evel watching his son Robbie doing stunts. It is easier to take the risk, than to watch someone you care for take the same risk.

[bushwhacker]

The rider has no clue how the non-rider thinks, and vice-versa.

I recently had a minor accident. I say minor because the bike is not totaled and I went home feeling ok after one night of observation at a local hospital.

Final Tally about 3k damage to the bike one sprained wrist, one broken rib and a little road rash to me and one deeply gouged helmet.

My only questions were, when will I be able to ride and when will the bike be ready to ride.

Since this is my second motorcycle accident, every person I know who does not ride either assumes that I will no longer ride motorcycles, wants to know why I would even consider riding motorcycles again or accuses me of having a suicidal death wish with no regard for my life or safety.

I try to explain to them, You make a mistake, you learn from your mistake, you get on with your life and getting on with your life does not necessarily mean changing your life style or giving up your hobbies.

They just look at me and shake their head in disbelief.

Such is life.

-

[scratch]

I recently had a minor accident...

I try to explain to them, You make a mistake, you learn from your mistake, you get on with your life and getting on with your life does not necessarily mean changing your life style or giving up your hobbies.

They just look at me and shake their head in disbelief.

Such is life.

-
Well said. I gave up trying to justify motorcycle riding to my family. Didn't tell them about totalling my Sprint a couple of months ago because I figured it was better to spare them the alarm, as well as not having to listen to their I-told-you-so's. Fortunately, my injuries were mild enough that I could conceal the evidence. ;-)

[TheSinistral]

I'm glad to hear he's on the road to recovery. I don't mean to seem morbid, but did Jim ever mention what happened?

-TS

[FotoMoto]

I'll never own a flip face helmet, if you do or are considering it, please do some research. He suffered what seemed to be significant head trauma. If you do some research you will find that under certain conditions ones orbital socket gets shattered in these types of helmets. After seeing it first hand, I'm a true believer.

As a recent buyer of a flip up design, your statement was of extreme interest to me. I did a quick google and the top two returns were from bike forums with threads consisting of "I heard" or "I'm not an expert but" comments from members; both of which were started by you.

I didn't find anything medical or scientific about this phenomenon; even the snell links. If you know of some please let me know.

Many years ago, I personally saw a rider sustain the same type of injury yet he didn't have a flip-up. They hadn't even been designed yet. You can sustain this injury in a **** good fist fight along with the nose and jaw.:pound:

If he hit a metal pole head on at high speed as you suspect, the helmet did it's job (saved his life and/or prevented brain damage). A picture of the helmet would be great. From your description, it sounds like it was an extemely violent impact. That's a great idea about sending it to the hospital if the EMS crew doesn't take it.

And as everyone else has said, don't beat yourself up over the ride leader thing. It was his fault.

Doug

[Hacksaw]

Jim's doing great. He's looking into getting his bike fixed. I e-mailed him links to all of the boards that I posted the accident to. He really enjoyed reading them.

[Tourmeister]

So, it has been over a month since the last update. How's he doing now?

[Hacksaw]

Funny you should ask. I just had contact with Jim yesterday. He's doing great, He's back at work and been off of crutches 2 weeks. He walks kind of funny because he's not able to put a lot weight on his leg yet. He is doing very well. Thanks for asking.

[Tourmeister]

That's great! I had no idea he was already up and walking around! I am sure both he and his wife are quite relieved! Will he have any permanent damage or a full recovery?

[Hacksaw]

Looks like a full recovery.:clap:

[Gilk51]

Looks like a full recovery.:clap:
Awlright! Great news!

[Dirtrideroader]

Looks like a full recovery.:clap:


Is Jim a member? Is it a full recovery? Meaning he will ride again?

I hope if he does, he will get some more training. If for no other reason than to help him with his confidence.

[Hacksaw]

Is Jim a member? Is it a full recovery? Meaning he will ride again?

I hope if he does, he will get some more training. If for no other reason than to help him with his confidence.

Yes :sun:

[Dirtrideroader]

Yes :sun:


That's great!