Zen and the Art of MC Maintenance

[WoodButcher]

Okay, I just finished reading this book and can't believe I haven't ever been tempted to read it before. Probably because I didn't start riding until a couple of years ago and I thought it was a motorcycle book. After I started riding, I didn't want a generic repair book... Anyway, my sister gave it too me for Xmas and I have really enjoyed it. Had to space out the reading to absorb it better instead of my normal method of cover to cover in a day.

I must mention that while I'm a computer geek by day, my degree is in Philosophy and much of this was right up my alley. So I'm wondering who else has read the book and what they thought. I'm creating this as a poll to see how many people have actually waded through the whole book.

[fogllama]

This is a book I've been meaning to read for some 12 or 15 years. Any day now I'm picking up a copy. ;-)

[Tourmeister]

:tab I have read numerous excerpts from it, but have never read it start to finish as a whole. Much of the prose is a bit overdone in my opinion. However, getting beyond that, there were some good parts where the author really hit the essense of the experiences involved with riding and owning a bike. I don't know that many modern riders could really relate to the book as well as people that rode in the 70's and 80's.

[JR]

I first read "Zen" sitting on a huge boulder under a Ponderosa Pine tree in a camp ground in Gran Teton Nat'l Park in about 1979. Since then I've re-read it four times. Each time I find a new depth of insight in the philosophical understandings engendered by the book.

Persig nailed a lot of things really well while hitch-hiking the good stuff on to a "so- so" story of a cross country motorcycle trip by a father and son riding two up and both with serious mental problems.

Sometimes when I'm off in the wilds somewhere riding, I see Phaedrus sitting beside the road as I go by. He just glares at me, never smiling or waving. That he's been dead about a thousand years is beside the point.

I'm no computer geek, but have advanced degrees in Psychology and Theology, so I really relish the deeply introspective mental ramblings of the author. His quest for "Quality" is both inspiring and frustrating. His conflicts with "the establishment" when he is a professor in Montana mirror much of my own thinking and many of my own experiences.

Great read... I may go dig it out and read again one day soon.
Grumpy old JR, Lake Livingston, TX STOC 394 03ST1300ABS

[Big Bandit]

I have read the entire book twice, once in my late teens and again in my 30's. I may have to read it again soon, I am 45.

[whoa]

Since you mentioned this Rusty, I just placed my order on Amazon. Also ordered the hardback Long Way Round.

You need to come to the Tuesday BBQ meets and start a bookreading section.

[Tourmeister]

Uhh... you know you're getting old when you have book reading meets... :nana:

[Gilk51]

I can see it now - TWT Library Runs... :roll:

[whoa]

I can see it now - TWT Library Runs... :roll:
ROFLMAO :rofl:

[TexasTri]

I'll agree it takes a while to get through. You have to take some time to contemplate what you are reading. I was not exposed to philosophy until recently, but really enjoy it. Quite different from almost everything I am accustomed to. This was a very good book, with a little bit about motorcylces thrown in.

[okayf00l]

I have the book, just havent started reading it yet.

[SuzukiQ]

I read it a long time ago and it bored the living heck out of me. :thumbd:

[texxter]

The older I get the better the book gets for me. Excellent read if you enjoy philosophical musings.

[whoa]

Okay, I just finished reading this book and can't believe I haven't ever been tempted to read it before.

K Rusty, just finished. Have you started "Lila: An Inquiry Into Morals" yet? Or do you plan to? Excellent book, but difficult on many levels.

[WoodButcher]

K Rusty, just finished. Have you started "Lila: An Inquiry Into Morals" yet? Or do you plan to? Excellent book, but difficult on many levels.

Nope, I'm done. I checked the MOQ website and don't think Lila is something I'm ready to dig into. I'll probably reread Zen in the next month or so just to cement it in my memory a little better.

[The Big Spank Daddy]

So does it tell you how to fix a CBRR1000 with fuel injection problems?:scott:

[Tourmeister]

Hehe... of course not! It is a big picture thing, attitude, way of looking at it all... They assume you can read a shop manual ;-)

[bluedogok]

I know that it was a favorite book of Dr. Tom Boyd who was a philosophy professor at OU and pretty much the favorite one in the department.

[Plane Dr]

I do not follow Zen Buddhism but it does marry in nicely to Thai Buddhism.

I found it a very good read. I tried it years ago (like 20) and couldn't get into it. I reread it on a beach in Thailand (4 years ago). It was part of the precursor to me finding a new job.

I loved the Quality debate, we all have that every day to some extent.

The motorcycle part is true to the old school and old bikes. It makes me appreciate the Quality of the machines I have now and the better state of repair they are in. Not perfect but better. I had a couple trips like that years back. They were grueling then and folk lore now......

It kind of makes you question what really matters. I might just read it again.

[dover338]

I enjoyed it. Parts of it were a little over my head, but it was a good read. I really liked the description of his fellow riders with respect to understanding how their machines worked. He performed his own oil changes and liked to learn the mechanics of the machine, which gave him a greater understanding of the motorcycle and the noise it should/shouldn't make. Whereas his riding companions where of the mindset to take it to the dealer to have everything done. I have always thought that you needed to understand the workings of the machine to be able to fully appreciate what is going on around you.

[Teeds]

Uhh... you know you're getting old when you have book reading meets... :nana:

:moon:

I carry a book with me on every trip. I don't own a TV (haven't in 30 years) and read about 10~12 books a year .... maybe I'll start a "what ya reading?" thread. :-P

I have read Zen at least three or four times and got about half way though Lila. Zen is the better of his two books in my opinion. I need to reread Lila because it explores morals and quality, which are both moving to the top of my explorations and improvement.

Zen made good sense to me the first time, but as Steve will tell you, I am a bit off center!

[bluedogok]

Has anyone read Guidebook to Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance by Ron DiSanto and Tom Steele (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0688060692/ref=pd_bxgy_text_b/103-2168942-7840613?%5Fencoding=UTF8)?

What about The Tao of the Ride: Motorcycles and the Mechanics of the Soul by Garri Garripoli (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1558746706/ref=pd_sim_b_2/103-2168942-7840613?%5Fencoding=UTF8&v=glance&n=283155)?
From Amazon
Author Garri Garripoli examines movement through life, which he terms "the Ride," with a capital R. The Tao of the Ride is Garripoli's deft interpretation of the two worlds of motorcycling and Eastern spirituality, and the relationship between them. In his view, readers can best understand the Ride as it refers to the motorcycle: the need for balance, the confronting of one's own mortality, accelerating, braking, refueling, tuning-up, accepting passengers, being in accidents, and on and on. To that end, the motorcycle becomes the metaphor for freedom - whatever it is that returns us to our natural selves. This metaphor then serves to illustrate principles of Eastern spirituality, including such timeless Chinese philosophies and concepts as Tao and Qi, to name but a few. Tao entails living in a natural way, accepting nature and following its rhythms - in short, Tao is balance and acceptance. Qi is the life force, the cosmic energy that flows through every human being. The metaphor of motorcycling, which requires balance, acceptance and evenly flowing energy, illustrates these principles effectively and concisely.

The Tao of the Ride, with its unique and down-to-earth metaphor, illuminates with crystal clarity and offbeat humor heretofore elusive Eastern philosophical precepts. Its division into concise, easy-to-read chapters, presented with humor, joy and wisdom, render it accessible and especially inviting.

Whether they hail from the beat generation or generation X, whether they drive Fatboys or minivans, all readers who enjoy Eastern philosophy and crave a better, more down-to-earth understanding of it will love this book. The Tao of the Ride, a handbook for the Ride of life, will take readers beyond motorcycles and into the mechanics of the soul. It is destined to become a must-read, New Age classic.

Just wondering what these reads are like.

[kocook]

Eased my fear of DYI maintenance on my brand new (1974) R90/6 while in college. Also, by the time I was finished with the book, all doubt about riding to CA (from South Louisiana) for my first job on said scooter had disappeared. In fact, made the trip 10 times before going off to Europe for 4 years. Lots of riding there, too. Guess you could call that a significant influence.

[Hairsmith]

I read it in the 70's. Did not enjoy it, and now I don't remember much of it. Back to that 70's thing.
Guess I was more interested in trying to Live it.

I should try rereading it now.
I do remember back then you needed to be a Zen master to work on British bikes. :zen:

[bluedogok]

I do remember back then you needed to be a Zen master to work on British bikes. :zen:
...plus all of the moons and stars had to be aligned....

[thestudent]

I read it in college about 10+ years ago. I think it is time to clear the dust of the bookshelf and read it again. I did enjoy the book and it made me start reading more than just fantasy and sci fi. I purchased Lila after read Zen and can see it from where i'm sitting, but I have never read it.

[John Bennett]

Like J.R.Rhoades above, I tried to read it about 20 years ago. I tried. I really did. I tried hard.

Rusty's poll item "Started and didn't hold interest/where's the MC content?" describes me exactly. I was young. I remember thinking "I don't get it. Everybody says this is a cool book about motorcycles, but it's tedious, and this guy knows nothing about motorcycles".

Based upon you guys' recommendations, I promise to dig it out of the attic and give it a second chance.

Right now I'm reading: Two Wheels Through Terror: Diary of a South American Motorcycle Odyssey (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1884313493/sr=1-1/qid=1138997548/ref=sr_1_1/104-6544294-7650366?%5Fencoding=UTF8) by Glen Heggstad
(Judo guy rides a KLR through South America!!!)

I only got five chapters into it last night, but it's good.

Previously I read: Odyssey to Ushuaia: A Motorcycling Adventure from New York to Tierra del Fuego (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1556524404/qid=1138997707/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/104-6544294-7650366?v=glance&s=books) by Andres Carlstein
(Jiu-Jitsu guy rides a KLR through South America!!!)
Andres and I used to converse via email. This was a good book.

[John Bennett]

Please note that I borrow all my books from fellow forum member BuddahTim and return them to him in pristine condition because, ...well, because he makes more money than me.

Tim deserves credit for sharing the love with those of us less fortunate.
(or lazy-er)

[bedlam]

I read Zen..., and while the philosophy stuff intrigued me, his narcissitic tone annoyed me to no end. Very holier-than-thou. I found it so off-putting that I put the book aside. Sad thing is that I know guys who pattern EVERY trip report they write after that particular style...kind of a superior "wide-eyed wonder" standpoint.

But I like trip reports, so I read 'em anyway.

Finding my own inner child,

:zen:

Jill

[Teeds]

I read Zen..., and while the philosophy stuff intrigued me, his narcissitic tone annoyed me to no end. Very holier-than-thou. I found it so off-putting that I put the book aside. Sad thing is that I know guys who pattern EVERY trip report they write after that particular style...kind of a superior "wide-eyed wonder" standpoint.

But I like trip reports, so I read 'em anyway.

Finding my own inner child,

:zen:

Jill

Mmmmmm, I'm off to check my ride reports ... :-P

I like your sig line, Jill! Been there, done that

[TexasShadow]

I must mention that while I'm a computer geek by day, my degree is in Philosophy and much of this was right up my alley. So I'm wondering who else has read the book and what they thought. I'm creating this as a poll to see how many people have actually waded through the whole book.Read it the first time a few decades ago, reread it again a few months ago. My perspectives are very different, based on age and experience. I suspect that everytime one reads it, their perspective may not be inherently different, but altered: either enhanced or slightly changed.

It is a book on philosophy, not on motorcycles and which tends to disappoint many who pick it up to read unknowingly. Motorcycles and their maintenance were a vehicle for Pirsig to impart his philosophy, much like a tool in a toolbox. As a scientist, I also found it applicable to the philosophy and ethics of science. In fact, the growing field of systems biology embraces the convergence of Western and Eastern perspectives that Pirsig proposes.

My copy is earmarked, highlighted, full of post notes and coffee stains. It was stuffed in my saddlebags on my rides for two months, reading and rereading pages when I stopped for coffee or a rest. I pass along copies to those who I think may share or gain similar insight, including colleagues and students. (BTW, my recent copy was given to me by a philosopher/computer programmer friend :)

Many have a book that means something to them that is inexplicable. It is more than just pages with print or a cover to gaze at. We find ourselves in that book, or it becomes a part of us. It's words may be those which we have tried in vain to express, which give us inspiration or motivation, possibly an insight into what we are, what we do, and who we might be. It contains a bit of our soul. ZAMM has been that book for me.

And yet......Pirsig 'knows' riding:
"Being on the machine seems more natural than being off it."

There's a Quality about riding that is hard to duplicate. He eloquently states what many of us feel.

--------------------------------------
"The only zen you find at the top of the mountain is that which you bring with you."

[Tumper]

Yup Cover to Cover.....

[raaraa]

I just have to throw in my $.02 worth on this topic.

I was a technical writer working for a Minneapolis computer company when this book was first published. In fact, I sat at the very desk that was formerly Robert Pirsig's desk. He left the company I worked for to finish his book. It was rejected by scores of publishers (120 sticks in my mind) until someone finally took a chance on it.

At the time it was published I was taking a creative writing course and the instructor urged us to buy "Zen and the Art..." as he felt it was destined to become a classic. And it has. It is not an easy read, and I agree that it makes more sense to me now, 30+ years later, than it did at the time. Pirsig gave up technical writing and pursued the author's life.

I think he knew quite a bit about his Honda Dream - it's hard to imagine someone taking a 305 across the country two-up, but he did. His lessons on oral history and quality resonate quite well today. but I think he was/is a little nuts.

Dave

[TexasShadow]

His lessons on oral history and quality resonate quite well today. but I think he was/is a little nuts. That is what they say about most people who think and speak outside the 'box'.
:)

[Berkshire]

I read it 20 years ago, for my Poli Sci class - Prof Daniel Jo Brown at SWTSU (San Marcos).

I liked it (generally), and I think I understood it (mostly). I found it difficult to get through. The "story" was not a real attention grabber, and the philosophy was overly drawn out and convoluted, which didn't make me want to keep reading. I'd like to read it again though - maybe it would mean more to me at 40 than it did at 20.

I didn't have much sympathy for the main character. First of all, I got the idea that he wasn't much of a mechanic! I was also frustrated that he let the internal machinations of his mind interfere with his ability to function in the real world... Pull yourself together, man! Things don't seem as simple to me now as they did when I was 20, so maybe I'd have a little more sympathy for the guy.

The thing that bugged me the most was this: The guy a "bad feeling" about a shop where the group had some work done. The mechanics there were young, maybe not very experienced, and probably the repairs didn't go too well. Later the guy figured out that what had triggered this feeling was the fact that there had been a radio playing in the shop. Music. According to the author, an "excellent" mechanic would have been too focused on the experience of "becoming one with the machine" to have a radio in the shop. The radio was taken to be an indication that the mechanics were basically just good-for-nothing louts - guys who really didn't care about wrenching or motorcycles or doing quality work.

I disagree with that completely. I don't think the music had anything to do with the fact that the mechanics in that shop sucked.

Consider the act of dancing, or making love. Both of these things are essentially acts of "becoming one" with another person, and music is required for one, and beneficial for the other. When it comes to wrenching, I know there have been plenty of times when music helped to get me mentally focused and totally into what I was doing - "in the zone" - the state where "arete" (sp?) is achieved.

...and yes, there have also been plenty of times when I had to turn that $#!* down so I could hear myself think! Sometimes it's like a dance, but sometimes it's more like advanced math. The part that's like making love is when you finish the wrenching and go for a ride!

Anyway, I didn't much care to have an "I can change my own oil!" type of guy telling me that I couldn't be a good mechanic because I like to rock-n-roll while I work. What I DID like was the assertion that it's important to be focused completely on what you're doing and have a desire to produce excellence. Unfortunately, this isn't always practical - in the real world, time is money. Shops don't make money by fixing things in the most skillfull and "excellent" way possible; they make money by selling parts and labor.

[Don Ricardo]

I threw out all the philosophy stuff, and was left with a book about a guy who had flipped out, got locked up at the Funny Farm and underwent electroconvulsive "therapy", lost his connection his wife, son and profession and was trying to get back on the road after a crash, so to speak.

[Cruzintexas]

My dad gave me the book years ago!!! I have read it several times and always pick up somthing.
Steve

[MLRickards]

I read it when I was in high school and loved it. Need to dig it out and give it another read. I sort of graduated to Atlas Shrugged and have read that 3-4 times in the past 15 years.

[Teeds]

I read it when I was in high school and loved it. Need to dig it out and give it another read. I sort of graduated to Atlas Shrugged and have read that 3-4 times in the past 15 years.

I pick it up every four or five years myself and manage to find some new understanding every time I read it.

Evevy book (as far as I know, I have read them all) by Ayn Rand is great, but Atlas Shrugged is my favorite. I have read it (by my recollection) at least 10~12 times now and usually reread it every two to three years ... With all the "we know what is better for you than you" liberalism rampant in the world today, it becomes more relevant every read. I need to take my DS to Colorado and find that mysical valley. :rider:

[JR]

Most interesting comments, folks.

BLUEDOGOK asked: "Has anyone read Guidebook to Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance by Ron DiSanto and Tom Steele?" I'm working on it now. For those who think ZAMM is tough plodding, The Guidebook is much more so. It's a superb experience for an introspective thinker. It does add clarity to some of Persig's work.

I agree some will try ZAMM expecting a book about motorcycles. Theyh will probably be disappointed. Motorcycles in ZAMM are nothing but a vehicle. Persig could have used Old Henry's Tin Lizzies (Model T Fords) as a "story line" vehicle with the same effect and merit. ZAMM is first and foremost a philosophical tour de force into the mind of a deeply troubled yet profoundly introspective person.

If someone fears what they might find within themselves, then I don't think they ought to try to read ZAMM. It's certainly not a light hearted romp thru the twisties.

JR

[TexasShadow]

I agree some will try ZAMM expecting a book about motorcycles. Theyh will probably be disappointed. Motorcycles in ZAMM are nothing but a vehicle. Persig could have used Old Henry's Tin Lizzies (Model T Fords) as a "story line" vehicle with the same effect and merit. ZAMM is first and foremost a philosophical tour de force into the mind of a deeply troubled yet profoundly introspective person. Back in his contemporary time, yes. Yet the philosophical and metaphysical exploration is not too far removed from other's that followed him, such as Casteneda and Cappra, as well as before him, albeit mostly from Eastern origins (Musashi, etc). I suspect the profound impact of his book is his presentation and the vehicle: using motorcycles as well as a journey with his son to relate his own journey. That approach adds an element of empathy overlaying his intent to convey the philosophy and metaphysics. Without those two elements, the humanness, fewer readers would understand it. It is a classic way of presenting information and ideas: a story and a narrative.

Interestingly, his ideas of Quality and metaphysics are becoming more prevalent throughout many mainstream layers of our culture (referring to Western). I see it growing in the field of science and challenging the very fractionating that Pirsig railed against. And in the humanities as well. (not politics, unfortunately :)

If someone fears what they might find within themselves, then I don't think they ought to try to read ZAMM. It's certainly not a light hearted romp thru the twisties. No, it isn't. Yet it may be just what is needed for those who fear themselves. Facing our fears gives us strength, courage and confidence. Those who fear themselves, fear many things around them.

[Don Ricardo]

Quote:
............It's certainly not a light hearted romp thru the twisties.

"The cycle swings into each curve effortlessly, banking so that our weight is always down through the machine no matter what its angle is with the ground. The way is full of flowers and surprise views, tight turns one after another so that the whole world rolls and pirouettes and rises and falls away."

[tigertex]

I have this book sitting on one of my book shelves. It has a nice layer of dust gathering on it and I see that the book mark is on page 11. lol

I think I got it for Christmas one year from my mom. She knows I like 'motorcycles' and therefore this must be a book I'd like.

Maybe one day I'll return to it.

[Squeaky]

I think I got it for Christmas one year from my mom. She knows I like 'motorcycles' and therefore this must be a book I'd like.

At least she was close. I got a few chopper magazines for xmas. They meant well...

[tigertex]

At least she was close. I got a few chopper magazines for xmas. They meant well...


:lol2: I got some too! I even have some Harley Davidson gear! And one of my relatives gave me a HD screwdriver. I'm afraid to use it for fear things will start falling of. :-P




(No offense HD guys :mrgreen: )

[Don Ricardo]

The book in question is posted in its entirety at:

http://www.virtualschool.edu/mon/Quality/PirsigZen/

[Faylaricia]

The book in question is posted in its entirety at:

http://www.virtualschool.edu/mon/Quality/PirsigZen/

Cool, thanks! This book was mentioned in my 'Consumer Behavior' book from last semester. It apparently seems to have more in common with quality and customer service than actual motorcyles?

At least this way, I can scope it out for free. :zen:

[whoa]

It apparently seems to have more in common with quality and customer service than actual motorcyles?

Thats right, the motorcycle is simply a "vehicle" to Pirsig's exploration of the Metaphysics of Quality. His struggle is painful, and its difficult as a reader to remain distanced from this. So probably when readers complain about this text, its at this level rather than his presentation of the question.

I'll enjoy the book better the next read, as the questions surrounding the subjects in the story are resolved. If you want a pure discourse on quality, morality etc, there are better sources. But this is a book worth reading according to Rusty, and a few others here.

Enjoy

[TexasShadow]

I'll enjoy the book better the next read, as the questions surrounding the subjects in the story are resolved. If you want a pure discourse on quality, morality etc, there are better sources. But this is a book worth reading according to Rusty, and a few others here. Many texts, articles, essays, and books exist on metaphysics and associated topics, such as morality. But not with such empathy as Pirsig's. In fact, his second book, Lila, delves into issues of morality and values more than ZAMM. The latter presents a foundation for the former. Think of 'Quality' as the trunk and roots of a tree; values, morality, etc as branches and leaves.

What many don't realize is that the book is Pirsig's personal exploration of himself, others surrounding him and the world around us all. It is many things. As he discusses so eloquently, our Western society tends to (more accurately, 'is') dualistic in thought, which trickles down to every aspect of our culture and behaviour. He presents reality as pluralistic: life is not binary with a divisible line, or putting it simply, black and white. A myriad of shades exist in between, in and around. I prefer to call it Zenn Boxes, i.e. four-dimensional Venn Diagrams (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venn_diagram). Venn diagrams are mostly two-dimensional, but any true scientist or philosopher knows that life does not exist in only two-dimensions.

Pirsig eloquently relates in several dimensions (time, space) his own personal journey and struggle to understand and comprehend, and share with others, his search for what he believed. But as he rightly explains, you can't put a name to it, for once you define it, it changes. Not that change is a bad thing, for everything is in a constant state of flux. But also his search for peace in what was in his mind, and his heart.

Those with any training or reading in Eastern philosophy will have an easier time reading and understanding Pirsig's book. There is much parallel between them.