The poo is about to hit the fan

[Tourmeister]

Well, I have not seen a Presidential speech in my lifetime like Bush's speech last night. I could not help but think how many people are about to go into harms way. I just hope, for the sake of the Iraqi people and our own, that this conflict is avoided by Saddam stepping down. Somehow I doubt that will happen though.

While I don't relish the thought of going to war and killing people, I cannot help but agree with Bush. Saddam has repeatedly shown us what he is capable of when he is allowed to use the means at his disposal. He gassed his own countrymen, women and children included. His regime has terrorized his own citizens much like Stalin did in the Soviet Union. The list goes on. The thought of this man left to persue his goals is frightening.

The thrust of Bush's argument appears to stem from self defense. But self defense is always a question of degree. How imminent is the threat? Everyone will concede a loaded gun in your face is imminent. But what about when you see that person loading the gun and you have already seem the person demonstrate the willingness to use the gun. Would you wait and give them a chance to finish loading, knowing that you are the intended target? Wouldn't it be safer to stop him before he get's the gun loaded? The problem is that the argument can continue being extended indefinitely. What if you see the guy on the way to the store to buy a gun, or saving up his money to buy a gun, or.... you see the dilemma.

Apparently our President sees the current situation as a "clear danger", both real and imminent. Sitting here at my computer, it is hard for me to think I have all the facts. However, I hope that our President does. He has a huge information gathering mechanism at his disposal and I hope it is being used effectively to inform his decisions. In the end, I have to simply trust that this is happening. That is the nature of our system of government. We elect officials to work in our place, to make decisions on our behalf, and we have to trust that they will do what is right.

I hope for everyone's sake, what we are about to do is right. :|

Adios,

[elliott_p]

Even the most cursory seach of the online new organizations results in many stories from defecting Iraqi's about the terrorist training going on in Iraq since the Gulf war. Saddams stated goal to his generals has been "Revenge" on the United States for the gulf war through whatever means is at their disposal.

The assasinations, torture of children, oppression and genocide committed by this man and his sons is well reported (if one bothers to look) but no one seems interested in talking about these things or putting a stop to them. How this differs from Kosovo and the reported atrocities commited by Malosivic, I do not see.

[brd]

My first thought about his speech was, "So much for not wanting to look like a cowboy, 'You've got 48 hours to git out of town.' "

There was a very telling documentary on PBS's Frontline last night entitled "The Long Road to War". Two things stand out in my mind from that show: 1. Saddam is indeed a madman and a danger to his own people. 2. The are elements within the Dubya administration (Wolfowitz, Perl, Cheney, Rumsfeld) that are bent on using military force to turn the entire Middle East to democracy as a means of controlling the region. The new "Bush Doctrine" that has emerged post-9/11 is their doctrine. Dubya is a figurehead.

More info about the documentary at http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/longroad/ There is excellent info here for anyone wanting to learn more about this whole scenario.

The whole thing scares me. ****, everything that's happened since 9/11 scares me.

[Tourmeister]

Well, I am hoping and trusting that our leaders know what they are doing at this point. I'm not so sure I am comfortable with the idea of invading Iraq. But I don't have access to all the info. The frustrating thing is that there is tons of info I don't have access to. So I just hope our leaders are getting correct info and making the right decisions based on the info.

As I sit here looking out the window at yet another incredibly beautiful day, it is hard to comprehend what is actually going on so far away. Never having seen combat in person, war is a TV reality only for me. I can't help but think how much fear and uncertainty some of the US troops and Iraqi people are experiencing. It seems like so many people over here just don't appreciate the brutal reality of war. Maybe it is all the years of violent video games and movies :shrug: But it seems like people here just laugh about it.

I just hope this is over quick. I'd like to see our forces come home with minimal losses. I'd also like to see the rebuilding of the Iraqi infrastructure proceed with great haste. When this is over, I want to see America demonstrate it's compassion in assisting the Iraqi people put their lives back together.

I have to say, watching any of the major news outlets is pretty digusting. These people seem to love this stuff :huh: Lots of flashy graphics on the screen, serious sounding voices and feigned concern. Hard to stomach. :puke:

I hope all of you are having a good day. This nonsense has all but killed my job. The leak sealing industry has pretty much ground to a halt since 9/11. I just hope after this is over, it picks back up again. If not, I may start bugging some of you for a job :wink:

[scratch]

Looks like our guys will roll out sometime today. It's getting close to sundown in Iraq as I write this, so it might be only a couple more hours away. Let's hope this is over with swiftly and with as few casualties as possible on both sides.

I've been reading an excellent book on the background to this conflict. It's titled "The Threatening Storm: The Case for Invading Iraq" by Kenneth M. Pollack. Mr. Pollack was an analyst working for the CIA and the National Security Council during the Clinton administration, so he has a wealth of knowledge to back up his assertions. He doesn't seem to have any strong political agenda. The book gives the history of the region and how things got to where they are today. It's written in a style that keeps your interest rather than being a dry accounting of facts, figures and dates. Highly recommended.

---------------------------

Scott, with your education and experience, I'll bet you could tailor a resume for a number of different kinds of jobs. You might want to think about some things you haven't tried doing before, and if this war is over with quickly, our economy may rebound faster than you'd imagine. Hang in there!

[buck000]

So I just hope our leaders are getting correct info and making the right decisions based on the info.

My 0.02:

* It's probably right to get SH out of power
* It's wrong to go around an established int'l body (the UN) and do it essentially unilaterally.
* It'll probably be a quick war, but a long occupation
* I still haven't seen the bill to the American taxpayer for all this.

It seems like so many people over here just don't appreciate the brutal reality of war. Maybe it is all the years of violent video games and movies :shrug: But it seems like people here just laugh about it.

I guess I'm a (passive) peacenik, but I agree with you, it's disturbing to hear such remarks.


I have to say, watching any of the major news outlets is pretty digusting. These people seem to love this stuff :huh: Lots of flashy graphics on the screen, serious sounding voices and feigned concern. Hard to stomach. :puke:

AGREED. I happened to have CNN on last night, and Aaron Brown is one again Mr. Follow-The-War (am I the only one who thought he was LOUSY during Irag 1?), and basically filling time until Something Happens.

The most bizarre moment to me, though, was the "journalist" on board an aircraft carrier who had arranged for the fighter pilot to give a thumbs-up to everybody in TV-land. "Did you see it? Did you see it?" she exclaimed. Sheesh; what ever happened to just reporting the news, and moving on to other news if there's no War News at the moment...? :shrug:

That was even stranger than Uday Hussein calling on his God to protect them from America.... :shame:

sigh

[elliott_p]

* It's wrong to go around an established int'l body (the UN) and do it essentially unilaterally.


Please define "essentially unilaterally".

[Tourmeister]

I just finished watching an question answer session with Rumsfield on the news. He made the claim that the coalition is now larger than it was for the Desert Storm operations. I am sure that claim will come under INTENSE scrutiny. But it seems that even though other nations may have given approval and might thus be considered part of the coalition, there does not seem to be as much military support by these coalition members as was seen in Desert Storm.

So from the perspective of whose forces are on the ground right now, yes it does seem like it is just the US and this is a unilateral action. But from the perspective of approval, there are more nations towing the line now. Of course that could just be politcally motivated. It is almost always good to say you were on the side of the winner once the dust has settled.

[buck000]

* It's wrong to go around an established int'l body (the UN) and do it essentially unilaterally.


Please define "essentially unilaterally".

Without the approval of the UN Security Council. I know, I know, ineffective group, etc.. :shrug:

[elliott_p]

I hear ya. I wasn't trying to start an argument or anything. Just trying to see where you're coming from. :-)

Unfortunately, I guess we'll never know for sure how much support was in the UN since the threat of a veto by a single nation..France....essentially made the vote useless.

[buck000]

I hear ya. I wasn't trying to start an argument or anything. Just trying to see where you're coming from. :-)

Unfortunately, I guess we'll never know for sure how much support was in the UN since the threat of a veto by a single nation..France....essentially made the vote useless.

26-6-6 is what I read, check the first post here (http://www.sport-touring.net/cgi-bin/msgboard/ikonboard.cgi?s=131cb4de13355302a8c6a1f588edc5d6;a ct=ST;f=13;t=2446;st=1430).

Yup, veto power sucks, but them's the rules.... :suicide:

[scratch]

...But it seems that even though other nations may have given approval and might thus be considered part of the coalition, there does not seem to be as much military support by these coalition members as was seen in Desert Storm.

As a practical matter, is there really any other nation who's military is sufficiently advanced (other than the Brits) to be part of an integrated hi-tech campaign? The U.S. military is probably better off without the assistance of most other nation's armed forces, because it might be more of a hindrance than a help to our guys.

We might see more of a contribution from coalition forces after the fighting is finished, where they can help take up the burden of being an army of occupation until civil order is restored in Iraq.

[Tourmeister]

It is amazing how many times the news people can rehash nothing and talk about nothing and not go insane! It is also amusing how they continue to just show random images of mostly nothing because nothing is happening. At times it almost seems like the talking heads are frustrated because nothing exciting is happening to report or show us. What little things do happen, they pounce upon like a ravenous school of pirahnas! And they wonder why they are so often compared to circling vultures :lol: Well, at least there haven't been any commercials to make it even more annoying. I love the mute button.

[John Bennett]

My 0.02:

* It's probably right to get SH out of power
* It's wrong to go around an established int'l body (the UN) and do it essentially unilaterally.
* It'll probably be a quick war, but a long occupation
* I still haven't seen the bill to the American taxpayer for all this.

Good predictions. CNBC needs to give you Jim Cramer's job.

[Tourmeister]

Dude... five years!! :lol2:

[bigboy292000]

LOL! I started reading the first post and thought... has Scott lost it or something? Then I looked at the date...

[whitesands]

My 0.02:
* I still haven't seen the bill to the American taxpayer for all this.


We have seen the bill...It's called inflation..The war has been funded by the printing of money by the Federal Reserve..Any time they do that, it dilutes the currency and takes purchasing power away from every dollar bill Americans are holding...The purchasing power that is taken is used to fund the war bill and every other form of government spending not funded by a direct tax...Every other form of government spending that doesn't come from taxation is funded by inflating the currency..So you do pay for it but it is a hidden form of taxation...Most people don't understand this and that is exactly how they get away with it....All people really know is that things get more expensive but they have no clue as to why.

[Tim Kreitz]

It's quite interesting to go back to 2003 and read my own posts on the subject. I, too, got bamboozled into cautiously trusting the decision to invade. That lasted about 6 or 9 months. The more the facts came out, the more I cringed and winced.

The unique thing about this war (and this is something that bothered me greatly at the time, though I couldn't exactly put my finger on it) is that it's the first time I can think of when we just up and invaded a sovereign nation which wasn't actively jacking with someone else. You can point to Iraq's defiance of all those UN resolutions, but Bush didn't give a crap what the UN wanted -- why demand simultaneously that Iraq obey it? Funny how retrospect always seems to provide the best vantagepoint.

[Texas T]

LOL! I started reading the first post and thought... has Scott lost it or something? Then I looked at the date...

+1

[T.B.]

It's quite interesting to go back to 2003 and read my own posts on the subject. I, too, got bamboozled into cautiously trusting the decision to invade. That lasted about 6 or 9 months. The more the facts came out, the more I cringed and winced.

The unique thing about this war (and this is something that bothered me greatly at the time, though I couldn't exactly put my finger on it) is that it's the first time I can think of when we just up and invaded a sovereign nation which wasn't actively jacking with someone else. You can point to Iraq's defiance of all those UN resolutions, but Bush didn't give a crap what the UN wanted -- why demand simultaneously that Iraq obey it? Funny how retrospect always seems to provide the best vantagepoint.

+1

[txbanditrydr]

Funny how "schiznit" is now "poo".....

[macktruckturner]

Dude... five years!! :lol2:

I thought the same thing, the day you posted this I not only had no motorcycle, I had no clue this site existed. I was also downtown at the Houston MEPS, enlisting that very day.

:eek2:

[KenH]

Funny how "schiznit" is now "poo".....

Please don't spell around the filter.







:rofl:

[Tim Kreitz]

Please don't spell around the filter. :rofl:

That's right. Everyone knows its "schiz-night!" :lol2:

[Thermalser]

I wonder what Scott's post count was in March of '03.:lol2:

[KenH]

That's right. Everyone knows its "schiz-night!" :lol2:

:rofl:

[DaveC]

This is the weekly "raise a dead thread" thread?:lol2: