SHNF trail closure questions????

TWT, I have a question maybe someone here can answer? For many years now, the forestry service in the SHNF has closed the multiuse trails when they get rain there. This is disturbing to me because only one person, Jason, opens and closes these trails at his discretion without any real guidelines to go by other than his own discretion. Many times the forest will take the rainfall and compact the soil and sands and be in perfect shape for riding other than a few puddles which are mostly hard bottoms anyway, but the trails will stay closed till these puddles have almost disappeared and the sand has dried out.
1) Does anyone know why one person has this much control over the opening and closing of these trails?
2) There is also trails for horseback riding, hiking, and bicycling that never close even after very hard rains. Is this a double standard just closing the ORV trails and not all the trails? If not, WHY?
3) Is there anything we as the public can do to change the system to help keep our riding trails in the SHNF open year round?

Buelligan said:

1) Does anyone know why one person has this much control over the opening and closing of these trails?

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I don't know, but I hope we never get more people involved. I can only see that making the trails stay closed for longer.

Buelligan said:

2) There is also trails for horseback riding, hiking, and bicycling that never close even after very hard rains. Is this a double standard just closing the ORV trails and not all the trails? If not, WHY?

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Good question - I do think there is an understanding that ORV use erodes and damages the trail network much more than hiking and horseback. Whether true or not is probably a judgement call.

Buelligan said:

3) Is there anything we as the public can do to change the system to help keep our riding trails in the SHNF open year round?

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I know I have been very lax about attending the meetings which are open to the public. I make the excuse that I am in Sugar Land, which is a 90 minute drive with no traffic, and 3-4 hours for some of the meeting times scheduled.

Larry this would be a good subject to bring up at a Multi-use Trails Coalition meeting. The head ranger is always in attendance and is a very fair and understanding person. This could be presented not as a dig on Jason but on trying to establish guidelines to help him in making decisions mutual beneficial to both sides. Maybe even appoint and enpower volunteers from SHNF Coalition, TRH, ODODB or other authorized to assist in the closing/opening?

I also think that at times he has to make calls based on weather forecasts due to his hours physically present at the forest. i.e. If its raining hard Saturday at noon and he has to leave for the day what does he do? Probably lock the trailhead gates and change the Trail info line to closed. Then the sun comes out at 3pm, trails dry out but still closed for next day as nobody working Sunday to re-open.

_

Buelligan said:

This is disturbing to me because only one person, Jason, opens and closes these trails at his discretion without any real guidelines to go by other than his own discretion.

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Having worked with state parks, (albeit not the forestry system), I would advise some caution. Unless you have documented evidence that they have "no guidelines" and it's just based on someone's whims, I would not recommend going in with this approach. You'll catch more flies with honey.

I would ask what guidelines they use and how many people are responsible for this at one of the meetings. (You may already have, I just can't tell from your post).

Generally a lot of the people in Forestry Service and State Park system have degrees in Forestry or Parks Management, so I would venture to guess that they have a lot more specialized knowledge than we do. Also keep in mind that they have limited budgets (because we don't like to pay taxes) and the forestry / park do not pay well. These people are usually doing it for their love of the work and deserve some respect because they're willing to work for less than most of us would want.

Buelligan said:

Many times the forest will take the rainfall and compact the soil and sands and be in perfect shape for riding other than a few puddles which are mostly hard bottoms anyway, but the trails will stay closed till these puddles have almost disappeared and the sand has dried out.

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I think this is a great point to make, but also keep in mind the flipside.

As you said, "mostly hard bottoms". What about the areas that aren't? If those areas get wollered out who fixes them? And who pays for the repairs?

Mountain bike groups periodically go to certain parks / areas and work on the trails if they have become damaged, or to prevent damage. I don't know if the offroad groups do this. So it may be if damage is done, no one steps up to fix it or "Joe the Taxpayer" has to fix it if the budget allows. There could be a historical precedence where some bad apples have made them overly cautious.

Buelligan said:

2) There is also trails for horseback riding, hiking, and bicycling that never close even after very hard rains. Is this a double standard just closing the ORV trails and not all the trails? If not, WHY?

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I don't know if this exactly accurate either. I've had hiking/biking trails closed on me in that area. They generally shut down bicycle traffic first and maybe foot traffic if it's really bad.

Buelligan said:

3) Is there anything we as the public can do to change the system to help keep our riding trails in the SHNF open year round?

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I definitely suggest attending the meeting and finding out the answers to your questions and finding out their concerns and what criteria they use for closure. These parks "usually" have pretty good reasons for their policies but usually welcome feedback.

Several members of TWT just recently got the State Park Service to revise their fee structure so it didn't penalize motorcycle campers at the state parks. You might want to check out that thread to see their approach. It was state organization as opposed to a national one, but they went through the channels and were well received.

Good Luck.

The poor turn out of dirt bike riders at the Coalition meeting, basically answers your question.

Just my $0.02

My .02 for attending the next December 6 meeting !

.3 of an inch fell EARLY Sunday morning hard pack no erosion happening here.

Friday afternoon and all day Saturday .003"fell hardly 1 inch
closes it down on foracast only numerous times.

(Forest Service again shuts MUT System) all trails for dirt bikes and nothing else !

there wasn't any rain but a sprinkle
way to go USFS SHNF #1. pissing people off for decades.

MagnaMan, I understand where you are coming from, but be advised we have been working on these problems for a very long time already and nothing is changing. As far as keeping the trails up, one of the groups I'm an organizer in is ODODB and we alone have put in hundreds of volunteer hours in the past year just cleaning up these trails in the SHNF and have monitored after every rain where bad spots are and have made numerous suggestions on rerouting them away from these lower areas that hold water. It takes an act of Congress to reroute a trail. As gasgasman will tell you, we have ridden these trails for decades and can identify every low spot and reroute that could be made to eliminate these problem areas but cannot because of funding? As a group, we have been willing to do whatever to keep these trails open for the public, but closing when there is a "chance of rain" is still unacceptable. The forestry service needs help and funding and we are providing both with our volunteer work, but for them to close these trails without proper monitoring is not acceptable either. Too many people try to make plans to ride there and then they just shut it down for a non acceptable reason, well, this just ticks people off.
BTW: SHNF spent thousands of dollars awhile back to have people come in and do soil analysis in the forest on the SMUT and found out that rainfall actually is not bad for the trails and riding them is sustainable after rains except in a very few areas which we have identified and they still don't believe that either.

As far as other trails closing due to rainfall, I have yet to hear a message on the SHNF line say that any trail is closed other than the multiuse trails when it rains. The drought was the one exception when they closed the whole forest.

BTW I am not trying to start a war with the SHNF, just looking for an answer to keep the Multiuse trails open. I think all the trail systems in the SHNF should stay open all the time. And, if the SHNF needs help cleaning trails and keeping lower wet trails from being a problem, and doesn't have the funding to do it themselves, then work with us and let's find solutions, but closing the trails as often as they do won't work to get them there. I have ridden the forest for over 4 decades before they started closing them at all, and I can tell you, when a trail has not been sustained, it will go away forever.

Hi Buelligan,

Thanks for the detailed information.

I'm not an off-roader. I'd like to give it shot, but my garage is too full to justify another toy. But I'd like to see everyone enjoy the outdoors as long as we don't do it at the expense of ruining it for the next guy.

I think you guys have a good case for some changes. It's a shame when you have a group willing to help, but you're not allowed.

It sounds like the Multi-use Trails Coalition meeting is a good place to start the conversation. But if I understand the Coalition's purpose correctly, it's for several interested user groups, not just off-roaders? So before you really make your case, you probably need to see what kind of coordination you can get among the off-road groups?

You need to show the largest support you can... Maybe start a petition on one of the petition sites? You can state your case like you have above and then:


This way you don't come up with answers right away, but you show the need, the urgency, and the support.

You might want to use this upcoming meeting to "fish around" and just ask who sets up the guidelines and if they're closing trails to off-road use just based on the weather forecast? That way you can identify if there's some misperceptions that you'll have to deal with. For example: Have "bad apples" gone off trail in the past, etc. and done damage? Do some groups think of off-roaders as mudders? (We've probably all been riding / hiking through an area where some a-hole has torn it up mudding thinking they were funny. It's the same mindset as littering, in my opinion.)

Good luck.

I would hope that everyone on TWT especially in General Dirtiness would WANT TO HELP

Larry as they say here at the office.
Execute .
Execute .
Execute .

oh and by-the way make peace not war .
no wars started w/ SHNF or its fine people.
peace out.

Thanks guys for all this input. We have worked very hard at ODODB to keep the trails open for everyone to use, after all these are the multiuse trails for motorcycles, 4 wheelers, hikers, bicyclist, etc. These closures are just very frustrating when we know they should be open, thus my questions to you guys at TWT.

Fighting city hall (or any gov entity) will just wear most folks out if you tackle it alone or in small qty of people.
You need to get lots of people that are committed to make an impact. Join a club or action group (just not Sierra or other tree kissing club, although they are pretty well organized, but in the wrong direction - LOL)
Dirt riders just need to try and out number them to have any influence.

In all seriousness, forrest closures are a big drag.
best solution to be able to ride on a regular basis is to join a club as a back up plan like - Skullcreek, Outlawtracks, Rio Bravo, Cherokee, etc. to have an alternate place to ride. Its just how we have to live these days.

Trust me you could do a lot worse than Jason - be thankful for the folks that keep the relationship in good standing (Like TRH - thanks for your efforts).
Dirt riders need to show up in large groups at the meetings to make an impact, easily said, but getting them to all commit is the hard part.

Ok that may have been 4 cents worth -

"best solution to be able to ride on a regular basis is to join a club as a back up plan like - Skullcreek, Outlawtracks, Rio Bravo, Cherokee, etc. to have an alternate place to ride. Its just how we have to live these days"

Agree with your statement but this is getting much harder, Skullcreek is gone by first of year last I heard, Outlaw closes when it rains in west Tx, lol and is 780 a year, Cherokee is long gone, and I'm sure Rio is a nice place but I'm not familiar with their trail system. One of the main reasons I try to still race is having a different place to ride.

I think the main issue here is, the SHNF service is closing OUR PUBLIC LANDS without due cause too many times. There needs to be a check and balance for when they need to be closed and when they should be open, and right now Jason is the sole person to make that call with no responsibility to anyone for what he does. This is what we need to accomplish, have a standard for closing the trails only when they must be closed to not harm the forest.

woodsguy said:

Skullcreek is gone by first of year last I heard, Outlaw closes when it rains in west Tx, lol and is 780 a year, Cherokee is long gone, and I'm sure Rio is a nice place but I'm not familiar with their trail system. One of the main reasons I try to still race is having a different place to ride.

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Dang-it Sorry to hear that - I really enjoyed all of those places when I lived over that way - That's the best argument for plating a dirt bike (in TX or anywhere now for that matter)! -
Meanwhile - I'll be in Kisatchie (which also closes in really bad weather) or up in Wolfpen gap where we are still welcome rain or shine.

I really miss Cherokee, it was a fun place. Rio has some trails but very limited. You can ride off their property down some drainage canals/high lines/pipe lines right-of-ways, but it's all pretty flat, grassland. My impression from attending the Coalition meeting this last weekend (see RG's summation http://www.twtex.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1311571&postcount=4 ), I don't think there's going to be much opportunity to change the way closures are done until the Coalition takes over the trail systems completely due to the Forest Service's lack of funding and staff. Even then, the FS is still going to govern usage and though it wasn't said outright, it was implied we ought to be happy the trails are open at all. I guess my definition of "public land" is way off from the US Government's version.