Does Seafoam work? Not a question.

[humanrace]

As the original poster, I suggest we get back to the original purpose of this thread, which is to make fun of me for being so looney that I spend $10 on chemical gas additives to solve a problem caused by past chemicals added to my brain (alcohol).

[trainman]

Not making fun of you, but I have had three DRZ 400's and everyone had a carburetor problem at one time or the other (poor fuel). Now this was probably from letting the bike set too long, but Seafoam didn't help what so ever, same for my KLR's. I'm using what little I have left in the BMW 650 Dakar that is fuel injected, don't know why because the previous owner did nothing for years but put gas in it and never had a problem. Probably won't buy anymore, but I am willing to sell what I have left for a very small sum, or trade for something of no value.
John

[Mandres]

Originally Posted by humanrace

It theoretically makes 12% more horsepower than E10 (pump unleaded). The Texas A&M formula car made 11% more as measured on an eddy current dyno. They use E85 and they have won the formula and hybrid car competition more than any other team and this is an international competition. Last year they came in second to the Italians.

Not sure if serious...

e85 has a higher octane rating than normal gasoline. This means that race tuners can modify ignition parameters and make more hp without the gas pre-igniting.

But dumping e85 into an engine that is not tuned for high-octane fuel will give you worse results than using the right gas.

[humanrace]

Originally Posted by Mandres

Not sure if serious...

e85 has a higher octane rating than normal gasoline. This means that race tuners can modify ignition parameters and make more hp without the gas pre-igniting.

But dumping e85 into an engine that is not tuned for high-octane fuel will give you worse results than using the right gas.

My horsepower and TAMU's horsepower has nothing to do with octane or ignition timing. The 12% theoretical gain comes without any change in timing. It's a result of the liquid oxygen that is attached to the alcohol, CH3-CH2-OH. As a result, we can add more fuel with the same amount of air. Ethanol has slightly less energy than gasoline, but we can put 30 to 40% more fuel in without running rich. I would run methanol which would be an even higher ratio of oxygen to hydrocarbons, but rules don't allow anything but pump gas.

"not tuned for high-octane fuel will give you worse results than using the right gas"
That is certainly true with similar fuels, but not true if you change the oxygen content of the fuel. We put a CBR 600 on the dyno and without changing ignition timing, horsepower went down as we went from regular pump, premium pump, 100 race fuel and 105 race fuel. The limiting factor for horsepower is not fuel, but oxygen, all else being equal. Witness nitrous oxide, 2 nitrogen to 1 oxygen versus air, 4 nitrogen to 1 oxygen.

[h2000fb]

Originally Posted by humanrace

My horsepower and TAMU's horsepower has nothing to do with octane or ignition timing. The 12% theoretical gain comes without any change in timing. It's a result of the liquid oxygen that is attached to the alcohol, CH3-CH2-OH. As a result, we can add more fuel with the same amount of air. Ethanol has slightly less energy than gasoline, but we can put 30 to 40% more fuel in without running rich. I would run methanol which would be an even higher ratio of oxygen to hydrocarbons, but rules don't allow anything but pump gas.

"not tuned for high-octane fuel will give you worse results than using the right gas"
That is certainly true with similar fuels, but not true if you change the oxygen content of the fuel. We put a CBR 600 on the dyno and without changing ignition timing, horsepower went down as we went from regular pump, premium pump, 100 race fuel and 105 race fuel. The limiting factor for horsepower is not fuel, but oxygen, all else being equal. Witness nitrous oxide, 2 nitrogen to 1 oxygen versus air, 4 nitrogen to 1 oxygen.

What does this have to do with "Does Seafoam work? Not a Question."
My Vote goes to Berrymans. The stuff you pour in your gas or oil. It does seem to work. Not on everything, but I have had good verifiable results with before and after.


Used in bikes where carbs were bad enough some cylinders would run, some not. Berrymans in gas and it cleared it up. Had lawn tractor with Onan engine. Would only run choked after a winter of setting. Berrymans would clear up the problem. - That said, there were plenty of time Berrymans did NOT work. But, it was always worth the try - at least from my past experience. You just have to realize what it does and why to judge if it is worth the effort in each case.

Used in oil burners that were so bad it fouled plugs. Berrymans in oil stopped the plugs from fouling. Still burned oil, but it obviously freed up the rings to the point of helping. That was my sisters car -best results ever had. Also used it in old garage sale lawn mower whose compression as so bad it would not start. Berrymans broke loose the rings and there was noticeable better compression and ran.

Seafoam? Used it twice with NO appreciable difference.

[Ben Eberle]

Originally Posted by humanrace

My horsepower and TAMU's horsepower has nothing to do with octane or ignition timing. The 12% theoretical gain comes without any change in timing. It's a result of the liquid oxygen that is attached to the alcohol, CH3-CH2-OH. As a result, we can add more fuel with the same amount of air. Ethanol has slightly less energy than gasoline, but we can put 30 to 40% more fuel in without running rich. I would run methanol which would be an even higher ratio of oxygen to hydrocarbons, but rules don't allow anything but pump gas.

"not tuned for high-octane fuel will give you worse results than using the right gas"
That is certainly true with similar fuels, but not true if you change the oxygen content of the fuel. We put a CBR 600 on the dyno and without changing ignition timing, horsepower went down as we went from regular pump, premium pump, 100 race fuel and 105 race fuel. The limiting factor for horsepower is not fuel, but oxygen, all else being equal. Witness nitrous oxide, 2 nitrogen to 1 oxygen versus air, 4 nitrogen to 1 oxygen.

I believe the real reason for the extra horsepower with ethanol and methanol is the cooling of the charge that occurs when these fuels evaporate. Cold air occupies less space than warm air and so you get more cylinder filling. Methanol burning race cars have been known to form ice on the intake manifold from the evaporative cooling of this fuel.
Before the oxygen is available to burn something, it must first be divorced from the atoms it already is bonded to. This is an endothermic reaction, it absorbs energy. If the energy released from combining this oxygen is the same as the energy absorbed from splitting the original molecule containing oxygen, there is no net increase in energy released.
Water, for example, is about 89% oxygen by weight and it is useless as a fuel.

[h2000fb]

Originally Posted by TLRam1

.... I have heard many stories but is that really the cleaner or the running of fresh fuel through the carbs that cleans them up enough for the bike to run.

Good thought. On my old Virago, it would only run on 1 carb. Add Berrymans and both would run. Miss a tank, still OK - most of time. However, better never miss second tank or it would revert back to one carb. So... while the Berrymans did work, I still had to dismantle carbs for proper cleaning in a Berrymans good carb soak solution and then use air to get solve the problem.

Other times in gas, my success rate was probably less than 20%. But, IMO worth the try.
Never had anything luck with anything removing water though.

[humanrace]

Originally Posted by Ben Eberle

I believe the real reason for the extra horsepower with ethanol and methanol is the cooling of the charge that occurs when these fuels evaporate. Cold air occupies less space than warm air and so you get more cylinder filling. Methanol burning race cars have been known to form ice on the intake manifold from the evaporative cooling of this fuel.
Before the oxygen is available to burn something, it must first be divorced from the atoms it already is bonded to. This is an endothermic reaction, it absorbs energy. If the energy released from combining this oxygen is the same as the energy absorbed from splitting the original molecule containing oxygen, there is no net increase in energy released.
Water, for example, is about 89% oxygen by weight and it is useless as a fuel.

Sounds reasonable. I know E85 makes 11% more actual HP on a YZF450 and a Yamaha 600 4 cylinder and 3 MPH on a XR115.

[h2000fb]

Originally Posted by humanrace

Sounds reasonable. I know E85 makes 11% more actual HP on a YZF450 and a Yamaha 600 4 cylinder and 3 MPH on a XR115.

OK, I am just not getting it.

If... if indeed everyone gets more HP on E85, why is my gas mileage LOWER on E85? I am not arguing the point of more or less HP, I am saying it is a fact, I get less gas mileage. Why? It is not in just one vehicle, but everyone I own.

How can you get less mileage but more HP?
Please explain.

[Ben Eberle]

Originally Posted by h2000fb

OK, I am just not getting it.

If... if indeed everyone gets more HP on E85, why is my gas mileage LOWER on E85? I am not arguing the point of more or less HP, I am saying it is a fact, I get less gas mileage. Why? It is not in just one vehicle, but everyone I own.

How can you get less mileage but more HP?
Please explain.

Energy content of some common fuels:

gasoline 18,000-19,000 BTU/pound
ethanol 13,200 BTU/pound
methanol 9,800 BTU/pound
nitromethane 5,000 BTU/pound

The energy content determines how much fuel you need to burn to do a given amount of work.

Horsepower is determined by how much energy a given amount of air releases when burned by these fuels.
A pound of air burned by nitromethane releases more energy than a pound of air burned by gasoline. However, to completely consume the oxygen in the air, nitro has to be jetted ultra rich, so rich that hydrolock is a concern with engines that burn this fuel.

[humanrace]

I'll try.

There is less energy in a gallon of E85 than there is in a gallon of regular gasoline, E10. However, you can put more fuel in the engine on each cycle. As Ben Eberle pointed out, that may be because of the cooling effect of the alcohol. Now, I'm going to estimate and round off number so the results will be close but not right on the money.

E85 has about 30% less energy per gallon than E10. The stoichiometric ratio (ideal fuel/air ratio) of E85 is about 1/8 and for E10 it is 1/13. Basically, what the stoichiometric ratios tell us is we can put 60% more E85 in the cylinder each cycle and still be running a correct mixture. In actual practice, it's not that high. Anyway, we put in 60% more fuel that is making 30% less energy and that difference is our HP gain.

[Rangerscott]

I've only used seafoam as a cleaner. I'm not a fan of using a stablizer and leaving fuel sitting in a tank for a long time. I'd rather drain it and start fresh.

[bones_708]

Seafoam does work when used right. Now all the claims and possible uses they make may not be true, marketing departments you know, but over all I like the product. What does it do? It works pretty good in removing fuel gum and varnish. Anyone who has pulled an old carb knows what I'm talking about and Seafoam will reliquefy petroleum varnish. There are products that will do it quicker but Seafoam is supposed to work slower. It does also remove petroleum varnish in the crankcase without over thinning the oil. In both gas and oil it does bond with suspended moisture and keeps it from separating out. One of the big uses has historically been removing carbon buildup from the intake but to be honest while I'm sure it works I don't know that you see any real performance change from this. I do wonder if the extra alcohol in the fuel has made Seafoam a bit less effective but when used right it's a good product just not some panacea that will fix anything and everything.

This stuff works when used on motors that are running pretty good. If it gets to the point that something is running badly it's most likely past the point where Seafoam will do any good. More of a maintenance product than repair.

[trainman]

So if I read this correctly, Seafoam works on a good running engine, but beyond that it will not help a bad running engine. That's exactly how is worked for me, so why buy it.

John

[bones_708]

Originally Posted by trainman

So if I read this correctly, Seafoam works on a good running engine, but beyond that it will not help a bad running engine. That's exactly how is worked for me, so why buy it.

John

It's about maintenance as much as anything else. It can also help prevent or even reverse some problems when caught early, but when it gets too bad then you may be asking too much.

[SL350]

Seafoam works great on my little weedeaters and Honda mowers. I use it on the bikes but I also start them all winter.

[slowoldguy]

On a trip out to Big Bend earlier this year, we all 3 fueled up in some little town but from different pumps. Ghostrider1964's bike started bucking and jumping within a few miles (less than 5). Then stopped dead. It would crank but wouldn't run anwhere near well enough to move. We tried everything we could on the side of the road (plugs, coils, anything we could think of trying). I rode back into town and bought some seafoam. Put it in the tank. It started and propelled him back homeward at about 45 mph. A hundred miles later he could go the speed limit. Another hundred and it was running at 80-90%.

What was the reason for the problem? We can speculate (bad gas) but I don't have a way to prove it. But take the story fwiw, 'cuz that's the way it happened. I'll use it again.

[Hellwig]

FWIW, I have used the seafoam without any observable difference. I may be wrong, but I seem to have red somewhere that seafoam contains alcohol. It is not an answer to ethanol fuel problems although may help as a treatment to loosen varnish etc as stated above. I hear the stabilizers like the startron and stabil for ethanol are the product to use to actually preserve the fuel. Berrymans seems to have tremendous cleaning power, but from what I have seen, an extremely dirty carb usually requires removal and disassembly to thoroughly clean.

Problems with ethanol gasoline from what I have seen are #1 the ethanol content absorbs water resulting in phase separation. Try putting water in a jar of gasoline and watch what happens. Even humidity in the air will change the appearance of ethanol gasoline relatively quickly. You can observe that here in southeast Texas too. Oh, and at least down here near sea level, every underground storage tank see water at some time or another. I have pumped thousands of gallons from area stations combined. Other problems are corrosivity. In 15% (E85) concentrations I think Buna for sure and even viton are doomed to fail eventually. It is bad stuff! I may be wrong but that is my observation from working on gas pumps. Most service station equipment is not designed to handle E85, and the 10% ethanol fuel we are using now is definitely causing maintenance issues we never experienced before with "neat" gasoline.

I say, use the preservatives at least occasionally with a Berrymans backer possibly alternatively.

Not related, but for you diesel truck owners out there, the diesel we are using now (ULSD) is also highly corrosive.

[Monkey Wrench Cycles]

If you guys are looking for a solution to ethanol they make ethanol treatments. One of my oil suppliers, Amsoil, offers one that ive heard good things about. There are other more generic ones around im sure.

[bones_708]

Accoarding to Seafoam their product is 100% petrolium product and when added to fuel or cranckcase reduces phase seperation. Now there may be better products but that isn,t the same as not working