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Rec Trails Program and Dual Sport Riding BBRSP

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my6--what do you mean by "local 4wheelers?" ATVs or Jeeps/Pickpus?

What I was trying to point out was that they allow Jeeps/pickups (IF they are plated) in BBRSP, but not an ATV or side by side. And don't get me wrong--I'm am NOT trying to say we should ban Jeeps/Pickups. Quite the contrary. Give them a place to ride (drive??) too, but know that after a while, two wheelers, ATVs and UTVs won't be able to use the trail. A jeep can get up a four foot ledge. Little harder on a dirt bike or ATV...
 
poser said:
Yeah, the big 4x4 quads can make a mess, when it's muddy. By. They're attacked to mud. No mud in bid bend LOL



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Agree with poser. A big 4X4 ATV can make a mess in mud. Personally I avoid mud, whether on two wheels or four. Some like it, I do't. But I doubt you'll see many "mudders' out in the Big Bend area. I just don't think the ATV/UTVs will do any more damage than a plated Jeep....
 
Sorry Guys, didn't mean to step on any toes or jack a thread. Angy was the best place in Texas I have ever had the pleasure of putting two wheels on in over 45 years of riding.
At times we would see 20 or 30 quads or the small Suzuki Samurais on the trails. We'd have to work our way around them in the tight areas and we knew where'd they'd been by the trail of beer cans and trash they'd leave behind them. Don't get me wrong, they had the right to be there just as much as we did but after several run in's with the LEO's up there and even a trip to Federal Court in Lufkin to argue our case the big gripe was with the damage done by the quad crowd. AND that gentlemen is a FACT. But if they close it for one, they have to close it for all. I've seen it.:tears:
 
my6 said:
Sorry Guys, didn't mean to step on any toes or jack a thread. Angy was the best place in Texas I have ever had the pleasure of putting two wheels on in over 45 years of riding.

At times we would see 20 or 30 quads or the small Suzuki Samurais on the trails. We'd have to work our way around them in the tight areas and we knew where'd they'd been by the trail of beer cans and trash they'd leave behind them. Don't get me wrong, they had the right to be there just as much as we did but after several run in's with the LEO's up there and even a trip to Federal Court in Lufkin to argue our case the big gripe was with the damage done by the quad crowd. AND that gentlemen is a FACT. But if they close it for one, they have to close it for all. I've seen it.:tears:
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I know and understand exactly what you're saying. Mud and wide muddy trails attract a certain type of ATV rider typically. They do lots of damage and leave a big mess. And there seems to be more of them in east texas than anywhere else in the state. I just say that judging by the number of "off-road parks" there are in the eastern half of the state.
I feel like the type of riding offered at BBRST would attract a better "class" of rider, much like you see in other states. Unfortunately like you said, if they close one, they close them all. :(
I wonder if there's a way to construct the rules in a way to eliminate or discourage this type of rider.


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dougford said:
Agree with poser. A big 4X4 ATV can make a mess in mud. Personally I avoid mud, whether on two wheels or four. Some like it, I do't. But I doubt you'll see many "mudders' out in the Big Bend area. I just don't think the ATV/UTVs will do any more damage than a plated Jeep....
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But in reality plated Jeeps and 4x4's do not use BBRSP. I've been there for 3 different visits totaling 9 days and have never seen one yet. So any argument for allowing ATV/UTV's using that reasoning isn't applicable.

Requiring a registered street legal vehicle does much screening for the Park. They are not staffed to verify and control the following:

vehicles are insured
vehicles have identification plates
vehicles are inspected annually
riders are licensed
riders have basic MSF instruction
riders are of driving age and assumed more responsible

If underage, possible inexperienced riders and the full spectrum of off road vehicles were released into the park the situation would quickly spiral out of control. Just too many reasons to list why this would not be safe use sharing and the Park is in no way staffed for this. Also the trails are not all contiguous and the only way to get from section to section is to ride on the main park road which is a state maintained roadway.

If someone really wants to ride their ATV/UTV in the park then get it plated out of state and ensure the driver is always licensed/insured. Plenty of states allow plating of UTV's for road use.

_
 
poser said:
I wonder if there's info out there on other states who allow offroad vehicles on their parks? I know in Colorado there's a bunch you can ride on ATVs and UTVs. Arizona and Utah I believe have a ton of public land for riding.
If there's no mud, the bubbas who cause the most damage won't bother :rofl:
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i believe SHNP allows non plated vehicles on some trails.
 
Me too--sorry about hijacking the thread. What Silver bullet says makes sense. Except for plating a UTV out of state. It would still be illegal to ride on Texas roads, from what I've read recently. I also forgot about Escondido Draw, which is out near Ozona. It should open soon...so ATVs/UTVs should soon have a place to ride.

Also, I don't think the trail of beer cans and trash is just one type of vehicle. Unfortunately you have bad apples in all types. Including those on two wheels...
 
The beer cans in bbrsp are from the pirates !


Signatures ???? We don't need no stinking signatures !!!!!
 
Well at least the State Park folks are interested in our needs. We may never see open access for all type riding, and that could in fact be best for the park. I do agree with tourmeister about the need to make the speed limits more realistic. Sooner or later these ultra low limits are going to get us dual sport riders sideways with the powers that be. All it will take is a rules stickler out there to start noticing that almost nobody holds it to under 20, all the time. If I actually thought I wouldn't be allowed to get out of 2nd gear during my entire stay there, I would have absolutely zero use for "riding" the place. 20MPH is a great speed limit for joggers, but is ridiculous for a motorcycle. Thanks to the Doc for all the great work. Lets hope we can continue the positive dialect and direction with Texas Parks & Wildlife
 
wildernessrider said:
20MPH is a great speed limit for joggers, but is ridiculous for a motorcycle.
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Ride your TW. Putt-putting can be fun too sometimes. To us, a bike flying by at hi speed within inches of our body is exhillarating. To non-riders, just the sound of loud engine from a distance may be terrifying. Especially for parents with small children.
 
TwoSmokeDS said:
Ride your TW. Putt-putting can be fun too sometimes. To us, a bike flying by at hi speed within inches of our body is exhillarating. To non-riders, just the sound of loud engine from a distance may be terrifying. Especially for parents with small children.
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Sold my last TW already, but the only bike I know of that is even remotely interesting to ride at less than 20MPH is a trials bike. Since getting off the "official park roads" is not allowed for motorcycles, no trials terrain is available. Foot traffic on the other hand has the ability to travel on every single square foot of the entire park. That they would need to walk in the middle of the road as if they were some type of licensed vehicle is surely more their transgression than my own.
To each his own I guess; "They" are frightened by a loud engine off in the distance. I am frightened by lilly livered humans who want to hold every other human down to their own level of mental frailty. :rider:
 
wildernessrider said:
Well at least the State Park folks are interested in our needs. We may never see open access for all type riding, and that could in fact be best for the park. I do agree with tourmeister about the need to make the speed limits more realistic. Sooner or later these ultra low limits are going to get us dual sport riders sideways with the powers that be. All it will take is a rules stickler out there to start noticing that almost nobody holds it to under 20, all the time. If I actually thought I wouldn't be allowed to get out of 2nd gear during my entire stay there, I would have absolutely zero use for "riding" the place. 20MPH is a great speed limit for joggers, but is ridiculous for a motorcycle. Thanks to the Doc for all the great work. Lets hope we can continue the positive dialect and direction with Texas Parks & Wildlife
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I have a much different take on this. I think that your "sooner or later" scenerio will come sooner if we complain and protest about the speed limit. We will just bring attention to that fact and at the highest park dept level that bikes are probably not currently following the speed limit. 20mph limit is prudent for most cars due to the roughness of the road. Even though bikes can handle the road just as safe or safer at higher speeds you cannot have the speed differential between vehicles on a public roadway. Even if they doubled the speed limit to 40mph cars would still travel at a much lower speed. And even if they doubled the limit to 40mph would bikes really keep under that limit also? Come on Donny fess up because I will and everybody knows the answer.

So best to leave well enough alone and just ride carefully with your eyes peeled open for cars and other four wheeled vehicles and then slow down and give them the right of way. Anybody ever seen the park rangers driving out there. I have many times and they dont stay to 20mph in their trucks either and have never flashed or otherwised cautioned me on speed when I'm passing them.


_
 
You are likely right about the result of asking for a speed limit upgrade. And for the sweet by & by, no one out there seems to be too transfixed on policing the distant trails. Prudent riding in the presence of any others seems to carry the day OK at present. But all it will take is one indifferent official on site. First thing you know another fantastic riding area gets regulated down to the status of why bother. I have only ridden out there once for a total of 2 days. It was such a vast and wide open area that we didn't anywhere near cover even half the roads available. Hardly saw another sole both days we rode. And yes as I recall we probably did top 20 MPH on an occasion or two. :trust:
 
They would have to raise it to 100 mph to cover some of the riders out there . Not going to call anybody out :giveup: But yall know who you are :trust:
 
JMZ said:
They would have to raise it to 100 mph to cover some of the riders out there . Not going to call anybody out :giveup: But yall know who you are :trust:
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Not going to comment on trafic enforcement inside the parks but I assure you that Brewster County will cite you for speeding OUTSIDE the park.....:doh:
 
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Yup, I think I saw those fellas too. Definitely wasn't me though, cause I was on a WRX250, and my boy was riding with me on a TW. But even that leisurely riding T-Dub wasn't very inclined to put up with only 20 MPH.
 
40-45 would be perfectly reasonable. Yes you can go faster than that, but it would be like a 70mph highway limit. Sure there are people who speed, but 70 is a reasonable expectation. 20mph is like a 40mph speed limit on a 4 lane highway- nobody will follow it.

I also agree that bringing too much attention will likely have the opposite of the intended effect.
 
jqueen said:
I also agree that bringing too much attention will likely have the opposite of the intended effect.
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This is the way I see it.


Signatures ???? We don't need no stinking signatures !!!!!
 
40-45 is exactly the number I had in mind. That way if a person was inclined to follow the rules, they would not feel so penalized. At that speed you are still be able to move from area to area expeditiously. And as anyone who has ridden there knows, there are many roads in that Park where even carrying a 20 MPH avg rolling speed would be a fairly ambitious endeavor. :eek2:
 
wildernessrider said:
40-45 is exactly the number I had in mind. That way if a person was inclined to follow the rules, they would not feel so penalized. At that speed you are still be able to move from area to area expeditiously. And as anyone who has ridden there knows, there are many roads in that Park where even carrying a 20 MPH avg rolling speed would be a fairly ambitious endeavor. :eek2:
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Yep, and just because the speed limit is there, doesn't mean you have to go that fast. If they wanted, they could easily post a warning upon entry to the park:

WARNING: Expect to travel well below posted maximum speed limits. Posted maximums are not intended to represent safe travel speeds, but to limit recklesness due to sight lines and safety of others. Travel speed at BBRSP is often limited by terrain more than by sight lines. Many vehicles cannot obtain the posted maximum speed on this terrain, or will sustain permanent damage if they attempt to do so.
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Remember - according to every single study ever done (that I have found anyway), the posted speed limit is supposed to be faster than the majority of people actually drive. Artificially low speed limits have been shown to increase average speed and accidents, but we keep using them anyway.
 
kojack06 said:
Not going to comment on trafic enforcement inside the parks but I assure you that Brewster County will cite you for speeding OUTSIDE the park.....:doh:
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I think with the current Brewster County Sheriff, at least the one that I visited with, you would have to be trying pretty hard to actually get a ticket. Writing tickets to motorcycles for speedng is way down the list of things he wants to do. Yes, he will "light you up" but his intent is just to let you know he is there and he would prefer you are not doing 30 over, which I was when he did this to me. He never turned around or stopped me. The next day at the gas station, I told him it was me that he lit up and asked him what his radar said. He told me he didn't really know, it just looked like our group needed to slow down a bit. We talked a while past that, but as law enforcement guys go, he was as laid back as they come. He said motorcycles rarely give him issues in general.

As far as speeds inside the State park, it is really easy to see approaching traffic on the main road, or if you are overtaking traffic, simply due to the dust. Common sense is to slow down when you pass oncoming traffic or overtake someone. Other than that I think the speed limit makes little difference. I go as fast i as want to and slow down and be considerate in the event I see other traffic, which really is not that often down there.
 
I haven't ridden there yet...:tears: But, I tend to agree with those that say bringing attention to it may have the opposite effect. On the other hand, I say ban the pirates, especially since it seems they are the ones leaving the empty beer cans around.
 
dougford said:
I haven't ridden there yet...:tears: But, I tend to agree with those that say bringing attention to it may have the opposite effect. On the other hand, I say ban the pirates, especially since it seems they are the ones leaving the empty beer cans around.
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And they are speeding also. Lol



Signatures ???? We don't need no stinking signatures !!!!!
 
Dual Sport Riding BBRSP

Been reading up on some of the posts and yes, the Park is very welcoming to motorcycles, and its a great opening to hopefully allowing motorcycles in some state properties that are going to open in the future. The BBRSP "dual sport experiment" is really showing the park that a good group of users are ready, and willing, to ride in state parks. The TPWD really needs to diversify its user base, and dual sports are a fantastic addition.

Regardless of the speed limits (which I think are fine...) is to ride safe and sensible. Sure, I dont go 20, but I dont go too fast since it really just cruising on the main park road. There are a few blind turns can catch you out. For the rest of the park, its so tough that speed limit is not really your main concern (not breaking a leg is....)


That brings me to my main point: strive not to have to get rescued in the park. Last thing the dual sport community needs is one guy to go tearing around, plow into horse rider or mountain biker, or get seriously hurt. Just enjoy it, watch your speeds, and be respectful to other users. From what I hear, its been working out fantastic!

Ride on dudes!
 
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