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Oldtlsdoug Gets Electrical and Stuff

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OldTLSDoug

OldTLSDoug

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I had my buddy Jim over today, and we ran some 6 gauge wire to a new outlet in preparation for my new (hopefully soon) tig welder to play with. When I built the shop I told them I wanted two 240 outlets for welding. So they gave me two 10 gauge wires to 30 amp breakers. So that wouldn't do, the welders I am looking at need a 50 amp breaker, so I put in the 60 amp circuit. Didn't break anything, but the 25 ft of wire cost $100.00. Whew!!

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Can you pick out what we installed?

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Looking at your service panel, just making a couple of observations that may prevent a future potential electrical problem. Your neutral feed is not identified as white. Put a wrap of white tape round it. Your neutral bus contains ground wire and you ground bus contains neutral wires. More of concern, I see neutral wire on one leg of your 240 breaker. Red and black are line voltage colors, white is neutral, and green or solid bare copper is ground. I can't be sure, but it looks like your sub panel has a bonding screw attached. Not to be used on subpanel.
 
Just because they are white don't mean they aren't HOT! In the country we use what we got and could care less about code. I bet every outlet in the shop works safe and great., that welding machine could cares less about what color feeds it. Good looking job.
 
Oversizing circuits allows shorts and other problems that can be caught and shut off at 50A continue to overheat and present fire hazard potential until cutoff at inappropriate higher amperage value.
 
Well Doug you did put I️t out there!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Gene, it appears that no good deed goes unpunished. I think your posted observations were worthwhile even if some country folk took umbrage with them. ;-)
 
GarageBoy said:
Oversizing circuits allows shorts and other problems that can be caught and shut off at 50A continue to overheat and present fire hazard potential until cutoff at inappropriate higher amperage value.
Click to expand...

Well, I figure I should explain. The "Electrician" my shop contractor used did all of the panel. The 240 service was supposed to be 50 amp, but they originally got 20 amp breakers on 10 gauge run in 1/2 in conduits.

He ran 3 to most every outlet, but it is all wire. I think they added the 240 service last and I know they changed to the 2 30 amp breakers. They ran the white wires to the hots, I hadn't seen that until yesterday. They put the "ground/return wires together, so I think everything in there is just 2 hots and a ground. I kind of wish we had code enforcement, but there you go, life in the country is wonderful. The house was built in 1970 and it has some really weird wiring. We do have smoke detectors though.:rofl:

All I can say, is I have proper voltages, I have my shop grounded "via the pole disconnect" they tell me.

The wires we installed for the 60 amp breaker are 2 hots (Black and White (#6) and a ground (Green #6) I had a red wire (also #6) that I did not use because the shop doesn't use the 4 wire, and my outlet is also a 3 wire.

I would appreciate your input as to what is and isn't unsafe and I will run it past my electrician buddy and see what I need to check to be safe.

Thanks
 
P.S. this is not a sub-panel, I have 200 amp service with a disconnect on the pole and an underground cable to the box. Even thought they didn't put a main breaker in the box, it seems.
 
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I personally would use colored tape to make the coding correct and make a map of what breaker feeds what circuit. Jacked up stuff hurts if you don't know what your looking at. I work more with DC power and don't do much with AC, but I usually measure for current on the circuit before touching. I know that typically with AC you see black and Red are hot. white are returns (neutral is not hot) and universally ground is bear or green. That is how I would color it. Both ends (plugs and in the panel). Someone could potentially get hurt working on it. I have seen where electrification use all black wire and colored tape to denote the wire. I can understand the use what you got moto though. When you're an hour away from sourcing the correct wire and all the local place has is white wire you use what you got. Some electricians are picky and some not so much. I fall into the more picky category.

I work with Neg. 48 volts DC a lot. Red is battery is negative hot and black is positive return. When folks don't follow the colors it bugs me or wire stuff backwards (like a positive system).

All that said I'd love a welder! I'm green with envy. I have like no less than 10 projects I'd attempt in short order. My brother picked up a deal on a snap-on mig welder at a garage sale for stupid cheap and I have been pushing him to get the 240 he needs in the shop to get it working so I can use it!
 
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That was my first look into the panel. I have a buddy who is a master electrician. He said he will help me out to make it ok. He said we need to tape the white one also, I will make it right, so it is safe mainly and just to satisfy my OCD as a secondary benefit.
 
Right on. Yeah, I likely wouldn't have thought to look into the panel either.

I currently have a weak breaker in my panel. It will hold with everything on, but when starting the compressor in the garage will snap it. I don't think the load is to much for the breaker, but it weak and shuts off when the load hits it. If I forget to turn it off it will usually die. Its fun at night as it kills TV in the living room, the hall, Laundry room, and garage lights as well as the openers. So no light and the panel is on the other side of garage from the door. I keep a flash light in the laundry room though. planning to add a 20 amp circuit for it and a few other plugs in the garage so the compressor does not do that.
 
Windmill said:
Just because they are white don't mean they aren't HOT! In the country we use what we got and could care less about code. I bet every outlet in the shop works safe and great., that welding machine could cares less about what color feeds it. Good looking job.
Click to expand...

I was thinking the same. There are about 50 violations here and jugments that were going to come of this post but it will still last for ever with no issues. Modern electric materials are inherently safe. Ok, fire away.
 
That panel does not have separate neutral and ground bars, as the two bars connected by buss bar to the same ground/neutral line coming from meter. White has been used as a power wire for 220 circuits for at least 50 years, not so for 110.
 
Bet you hate that plug, don't you Doug.

Next time, just post:

"Wired the shop for a new TIG welder.
Drank beer afterwards."
 
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You know, I have been both entertained and enlightened by this post. I will fix what needs to be fixed. But I sometimes could use a bit of "try this to fix that" or "this is where you can find out how to do it correctly". Constructive feedback is always welcome. Of course, if it is funny, other types are always allowed.

I do know that I am going to properly ground my box, also going to put red tape on my white wire. After that I will sit at the table by the beer fridge, listen to some music and sip some Shiner Bock. All in all an excellent outcome, thanks for playing.

Enjoyed the visit Mitch, that 650 sounds really good, especially shooting rooster tails up the driveway. After you left I spent time clearing and mowing on the road. Then I went to the we are all old but really smart and funny gathering of people who drink. My beautiful wife sat, sober, through it all. Great day, evening and lots of fun.
 
I unicycled up the road ...


OldTLSDoug said:
Then I went to the we are all old but really smart and funny gathering of people who drink. My beautiful wife sat, sober, through it all. Great day, evening and lots of fun.
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Hey ... why wasn't I invited?

Oh ... you said smart.
 
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Get you an ice chest and set beside the beer fridge just in case :lol2:
My problem is trying to keep shop organized, I have to weave through the projects. God please inspire me to finish just one thing :mrgreen:
I admire your organization, a place for everything...
I hope everyone knows there is humor, and bored mostly old men, involved in all the electrical comments and such. I get 80% finished fast, then the rest takes quite a bit of time. My shop was built a year and half and still wanting to finish out inside.:doh:
 
Wow I thought it was a mess, myself. But I clean it a lot. Got a TIG welder coming, should be great to have a new toy.

The good news, Mitch, is we didn't talk about you...much.
 
A new shop
A car lift
A TIG welder
Retiree time on your hands
Squanderosa to play on

You will have an endless line of "best friends".
 
30x30 shop with 20x20 overhang and I have to weave through it. See why I call you a good organizer.
 

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