Going Tubeless on the AT

I am going in with both feet, actually with both tires, making the switch to tubeless using my stock spoke wheels on the Africa Twin.

Last night I finally took the time to prep the front wheel and installed the Outex tubeless kit in my front tire. Everything went as expected after reading the instructions and watching several youtube videos of other people installing them.

http://www2s.biglobe.ne.jp/~outex/tubelesskitenglishlist.htm

Installed a new Pirelli MT90 on the front, pumped it up to the recommended 2.5 bars (what the heck is a bar anyway) and put the wheel in the bathtub to check for leaks. Found one tiny little leak where the bead hasn't quite settled yet. It is really tiny and I am sure if it stopped raining long enough a few laps on MoPac would set the bead just fine.

Left the wheel set on the balancing stand overnight and it didn't lose any air, not even a single pound, so I am happy so far.

Tonight after work I will mount the front tire and start on the rear. Hopefully it will go as well.

My goal is to get a few rides in over the next 3 weeks and see if this appears to be a real solution or a problem waiting to happen. If all looks good I will replace the Pirelli's with some brand new TKC80s for my trip to Durango in September. (if the rear tire ever shows up) Nothing like a set of new shoes to get you excited to ride!!!!

Will update this thread from time to time to report progress...

Cool.

I plan on doing this to my AT eventually. Please keep us posted on your results.

Interesting product, I like it better than Tubliss since no bladder tube to fill and maintain. But what about a rim lock? Tube type rims don't grip the tire the same as a tubeless rim. Probably not an issue unless you really hammer the throttle under rough conditions.

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I just finished converting the rear tire over to Outex tubeless and mounting the new MT90 tire. All I can say is CRAP that was a bugger and I had a manual tire machine to help me. Who in their right mind thinks you could dismount and remount a tire like the rear tire on the AT in the field is just insane. It would take you 4 hours minimum to break the bead, fix or replace a tube and remount the tire onto the rim. What a bugger. My arms still hurt.

Installing the Outex kit on the rear tire was bit easier, both since I did one before but because the rim is so much wider. The front is so narrow you have to spend a lot more time / effort keeping it perfectly in the middle. The setup is “resting” now with the prescribed 2.5 bars of pressure, I will check for leaks after my arms work again.

Can’t wait to finish the setup, balance the tire then install it and take it for a test ride. Not sure it is going to be any lighter, but it sure won’t be heavier.

Question for the group, what tire pressures should I start with? Factory settings seem a bit high, but I am willing to try. Honda says run 29 in the front and 36 to 41 in the rear depending on how loaded the bike is. Any thoughts, recommendations?

Personally I don’t run tires too low, but that is because I am always worried about pinch flats. In this case, no tube, so I can go lower.

With the TKC 80s on my GS, I rarely go below 20 psi at the extreme and usually keep them closer to 25 for ALL riding conditions. That seems to work well in sand, gravel, dirt, and on pavement. Nothing works for me in the slick mud...

TKC 80's should not be run at low pressures on heavy adventure bikes with wide rims. You are asking for serious rim damage unless you are toodling down gravel roads or going really slow on more technical terrain. They are flimsy side-soft side walled tires. I guess BMW guys like them because they come in 17 inch rears and 19 inch fronts, but with proper 21/18 rims like on the AT, there are many better choices, but I am not starting a tire debate here.

Anyway, I agree with Tourmeister. I would not run anything under 25 PSI, and if you ride it really aggressive in rocks that I would not go under 30.

I still don't understand the draw to tube type tires. I mean I guess I can see it somewhat from a ruggedness perspective but I think if people were honest with themselves on their ADV bikes a tubeless tire would be more than up for the job. And the technology exists at this point to have tubeless spoked wheels, if you don't want cast wheels.

I've ridden a buttload of miles since I got my Class M and many off road miles while I was in socal for three years. The only bikes we had issues with keeping tires on were spoked and tubed bikes. And the repair wasn't a quick plug it and roll type of thing either it was an involved 30 min to an hour process to get it done. The rare times a tubeless wheel/tire had an issue with a puncture we were usually back on the trail in 10 to 15 mins tops and that includes digging all the gear out to plug it up. No tire/wheel removal necessary.

Cool to see one of those kits being put to use

Downs said:

I still don't understand the draw to tube type tires. I mean I guess I can see it somewhat from a ruggedness perspective but I think if people were honest with themselves on their ADV bikes a tubeless tire would be more than up for the job. And the technology exists at this point to have tubeless spoked wheels, if you don't want cast wheels.

I've ridden a buttload of miles since I got my Class M and many off road miles while I was in socal for three years. The only bikes we had issues with keeping tires on were spoked and tubed bikes. And the repair wasn't a quick plug it and roll type of thing either it was an involved 30 min to an hour process to get it done. The rare times a tubeless wheel/tire had an issue with a puncture we were usually back on the trail in 10 to 15 mins tops and that includes digging all the gear out to plug it up. No tire/wheel removal necessary.

Cool to see one of those kits being put to use

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Look at the front rim of my poor 950 sometime. It is beat to submission. Doesn't get more honest than that. No way it would hold air tubeless. Considering strength to weight, spoked tube type wheels are the strongest option.

I am glad KTM didn't build my bike for most people.

Sadly I have to keep working today otherwise I would have her back together and on the road already just to see.

On mountain bikes we made the switch years ago to tubeless, everything is better in that environment, just hope it works out the same on the big bikes!

Think I am going to start with 28 lbs in the front and 34 in the rear. This is just a starting point that I can play with.

In my motocross days we ran about 11 to 12 lbs, desert racing was 24 lbs due to high speeds and sharp rocks. Trials we ran 6 lbs with tubes and would carry a tire pump so we could pump up if we needed to ride long distance "fast" to the next section. Fast being a relative term with a trials bike.

I rarely ride the GS in big rocks. There have been occasions where rocks embedded in the road were unavoidable and caused a pretty good hit to the front end, but most of the time I can see those coming, slow down, avoid, or try to whack the throttle while leaning back to lighten the front end, so I have never had any issues with bending a rim. If the bike is loaded down, I generally stick to easy forest roads on which you could drive most trucks. If I feel the need to ride rougher stuff, I use the 530 EXC.

Johnf3 said:

Look at the front rim of my poor 950 sometime. It is beat to submission. Doesn't get more honest than that. No way it would hold air tubeless. Considering strength to weight, spoked tube type wheels are the strongest option.

I am glad KTM didn't build my bike for most people.

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you would be the exception not the rule. I've beat my Strom to death off pavement and have yet to dent the cast wheels or have air leakage issues. The suspension on that bike mostly keeps you from getting fast enough but some folks have.

Maybe I'm the exception but I've ridden 20k+ of miles of trails/gravel on big and small bikes from Utah, CO, AR, OK and Texas over the last 6 years. I've had 2 flats/pinched tubes.
Pretty reliable especially considering my pace is faster than most.

Do these tubeless provide any other advantage? Do the last forever?

Its funny, I didn’t start this thread to talk about the pros and cons of tubeless, just that I am making the effort to try something new. Tubeless has proven itself to me personally in mountain biking, ATV’s and the various cars and trucks I have owned over the years, why wouldn’t they be useful in motorcycles?

My 1969 GMC ¾ ton pickup truck had split rims with tube tires, do you think they are better than my 2008 GMC ¾ ton pickup with 17” wheels and tubeless tires?

I too have a gilizillion miles on motorcycles with tubes, I have had many flats all my fault, this will be my first experience with tubeless on a motorcycle.

Do we need tubeless, no we don’t need it, but I want it !

Does tubeless have advantages, I my opinion, yes many which you can search for by smarter people than me. A short list is much faster flat repair while on the trail. Anything that would make a tubeless tire un-useable would more than likely do the same to a tube tire. Then there is heat, the friction of tube and the tires generate more heat. Tire pressures, you can run lower tire pressures with tubeless than tubed. Do you want to, maybe it depends.

There is a reason 98% of the vehicles on the road are tubeless. Look at the military vehicles, are there any tubes in HUMVEE’s or Buffalo’s, nope. Talk about off-road vehicles.

Hey there is the possibility that I am a 100% idiot, that doing this will be the dumbest thing I have done in years (and I have done some pretty stupid stuff), but it is my bike, I think it will help and we can’t grow if we don’t try new things.

Oh, no they don’t last forever, they say about 5 years depending on circumstances.

Sorry about that Mike I'm the one who got the thread going in that direction.


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No worries all good info




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kubotamiketx said:

No worries all good info




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Yeah I wasn't being sarcastic at all, genuinely interested. I'm just too lazy to do all the research myself. I will be honest the cost has kept me from looking into too far because those $10 tubes are easy to swallow. Thanks for entertaining my questions though. Look forward to future reports on the AT as I would love one of those too. And I think I might buy a dct model! Like a built in rekluse!!

kubotamiketx said:

No worries all good info




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The tube to tubeless conversion using tape or other sealant has been going on for 10 years or more, so there is no question it will work.

The only thing that caught my eye was when you were talking about airing down TKC 80s on a 500 pound bike. I was just trying to help you avoid rim damage.

Edit: I just pulled into my place in the mountains so I went out and took a quick picture of one of the dings on the rim that could pose a problem with tubeless.. There are two or three on each side and I don't go under 30 psi off road on my 500 pound bike. If you don't ride to the point where you slam into rocks and bend rims, then no issues with the tubeless conversion.

That is a pretty darn good dent !!!

First ride report, what a difference, it is like a whole new bike!!! The stearing is much lighter and quicker than before, but I thinking that is the new MT90's over the stock tires, there is no way tubeless would make that much difference. Quick ride in town and on MoPac for a bit before the rain starts this morning. Really loving the new setup, can't wait to get her out in the hill country and see what she feels like.

Neither tire has lost a single pound of air since being installed. I am running stock pressure right now, 29 / 36. Wanted to have a little extra pressure for the first ride, hoping to seat the sidewalls in as much as I can.

kubotamiketx said:

That is a pretty darn good dent !!!

First ride report, what a difference, it is like a whole new bike!!! The stearing is much lighter and quicker than before, but I thinking that is the new MT90's over the stock tires, there is no way tubeless would make that much difference. Quick ride in town and on MoPac for a bit before the rain starts this morning. Really loving the new setup, can't wait to get her out in the hill country and see what she feels like.

Neither tire has lost a single pound of air since being installed. I am running stock pressure right now, 29 / 36. Wanted to have a little extra pressure for the first ride, hoping to seat the sidewalls in as much as I can.

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Cool. I look forward to hearing your impression after you get more time on them, particularly off the pavement. I get tired of jacking with tubes on the KTM 530 and going tubeless would be nice. Packing spare tubes and all the tools for swapping them out takes up a lot of space and weighs a lot. Not too mention I just get tired of jacking with tubes... I like the plug-n-go of tubeless. I did have a Bib Mousse (sp?) in the front of the KTM when I first got it, but it was WAY soft for riding in any kind of rocks. I think it was the equivalent of 15 psi. I could feel every hard hit right through my bones. Yanking that and putting in a tube made a huge difference.

Tourmeister said:

...Packing spare tubes and all the tools for swapping them out takes up a lot of space and weighs a lot. Not too mention I just get tired of jacking with tubes... I like the plug-n-go of tubeless...

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Unfortunately you still need to carry all of that same as before plus now a tubeless plug kit, spare valve stem and Outex repair kit. As well as more than likely a better air source. Very hard to plug a flat tubeless tire without first pumping air into it. Then you'll loose some air while repairing and need to air up again.

Not trying to discourage as tubeless is the way to go but you need to carry more not less when riding backcountry where you are self sufficient for repairs.

_

After having removed both front and back tires on the AT, I am happy if I can plug a leak 50% of the time. With any luck that will be the rear tire because it was a BUGGER to get off and on again. It is really the same stuff, plus some plugs and a plugger tool, so really just two extra things to have both sides covered.

Now for quick local rides, I will leave the tubes and tire irons at home in the little pack, but will carry the rest. That is what a wife and pickup is for, she can always come get me (yea that sounds bad even to me)

SilverBullet said:

Unfortunately you still need to carry all of that same as before plus now a tubeless plug kit, spare valve stem and Outex repair kit. As well as more than likely a better air source. Very hard to plug a flat tubeless tire without first pumping air into it. Then you'll loose some air while repairing and need to air up again.

Not trying to discourage as tubeless is the way to go but you need to carry more not less when riding backcountry where you are self sufficient for repairs.

_

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Well, it is always a game of chance. In all the miles I've ridden GS off roads, I've yet to have a tire on the GS come off the rim (break the bead) as the result of a puncture. Nor have I ever full on slashed a tire. So all I've ever had to do is jam a one of those sticky thread strip thingies in there, nicely lubed with rubber cement, let it sit a few minutes, trim the excess, add air to flavor and go.

Now if the bead were to break loose, that would be bad... I would probably be screwed... Even the little electric pumps (which I do carry even on the KTM with the tube tires) rarely add volume fast enough to pop the bead back on unless it is already making a pretty good seal against the rim. About the only solution there would be to carry a tube, which gets back to that chance thing since I don't carry a tube for the GS... I rely on my KTM buddies for that

Tourmeister said:

Well, it is always a game of chance. In all the miles I've ridden GS off roads, I've yet to have a tire on the GS come off the rim (break the bead) as the result of a puncture. Nor have I ever full on slashed a tire. So all I've ever had to do is jam a one of those sticky thread strip thingies in there, nicely lubed with rubber cement, let it sit a few minutes, trim the excess, add air to flavor and go.

Now if the bead were to break loose, that would be bad... I would probably be screwed... Even the little electric pumps (which I do carry even on the KTM with the tube tires) rarely add volume fast enough to pop the bead back on unless it is already making a pretty good seal against the rim. About the only solution there would be to carry a tube, which gets back to that chance thing since I don't carry a tube for the GS... I rely on my KTM buddies for that

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Ratchet strap works pretty well if you carry a couple for something like a hammock. If you have some kind of spray that will burn you can pop it back on there with that and a lighter.

Does the AT have safety beads on both front and rear rims? For example, on the old KTM 950/990, the rear did, but the front did not. You definitely want safety bead rims if you are converting to tubeless. I assume the AT does have.

Downs said:

Ratchet strap works pretty well if you carry a couple for something like a hammock. If you have some kind of spray that will burn you can pop it back on there with that and a lighter.

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I have seen that done with jeep/truck off road tires. I've never attempted it. It looks like a fast way to remove what hair I have left on my head...