Okay, Harley's in trouble...

bmcdonau · Dec 6, 2011

Monkey Wrench Cycles said:
I would respectfully disagree with the statement that buell wasnt making money. It wasnt making money on the scale of the sportster, etc.. but they made money from day ONE. In fact when harley first starting selling buells the sales exceeded their expectations by 100 times!!

It all came down to the new brass up top and the fact that the new CEO stated from day one in office that he disliked buell and didnt see the point of having a racing brand in Harleys line-up... Its all been well documented and in fact cycle world had a BIG write-up on buell when harley killed it, showing all the numbers.

And i could argue that the reason the sales didnt go higher is for two reasons,

1: Harley was to restrictive on buell and wouldnt let Erik do what he wanted with it. Essentially they held them back and tryed to keep them outdated like harley is so well known for...

2: They offered ZERO support to the very brand they bought and sold!! How can you sell a bike and ONLY have 3 dealers in the ENTIRE metroplex, including denton service them when EVERY dealer is required(by Harley) to have a service dept. and service every other model... Even then, the techs at those dealerships that actually serviced them didnt know anything about Buells, and more times than not screwed something up. I owned many Buells and went through the BS that Harley did. Thats why i am proud to work on Buells at my shop.

Oh and dont even get me started on the way they killed Buell... They took bikes that were worth good money and caused a frenzy of selling for pennies on the dollar. Thats a really ****** way to treat someone who bought a $10k+ bike 6 months before that for awhile wouldnt sell for half that...

Just making money often isn't enough, its about ROE and I'd bet that Buell was not returning near what HD was on the same expendature. Of course, you can only shake your head at some of the financial moves they've made over the years.

TwoSmokeDS · Dec 8, 2011

I think HD should get into the dirtbike business. They can slap HD label on the better chinese bikes, mark 'em up, and sell 'em like hotcakes at HD dealers.

jqueen · Dec 8, 2011

US Highland is apparently getting geared up to be the premium made in the US dirtbike company. 3 of their principals died a couple of years ago, but they've gotten back on track and are signing big supplier contracts, etc.

DaveC · Dec 8, 2011

texasnh said:
I think HD should get into the dirtbike business. They can slap HD label on the better chinese bikes, mark 'em up, and sell 'em like hotcakes at HD dealers.

They tried this back before, Aermacchi built the bikes in Italy. Not the best quality, equivalent of the Chinese stuff today. Bad move. They could not compete, quality still matters. :rider:

From an article 10 Worst Dirt Bikes

6. HARLEY-DAVIDSON BAJA 100. H-D brought this little stinker out to capture the small-bore trail bike market that was dominated by Hodaka at the time-the early '70s. They contracted with the Italian Aermacchi factory, which responded with a hopelessly tall, short-wheelbased, underpowered, ill-handling package that nearly defied belief.
Still, H-D put together a desert racing team that started to dominate the trail bike class, so people went out and bought the Bajas in droves, only to find out they weren't buying what was being raced.

The race bikes had everything changed! The stock bikes came with rigid footpegs, no horsepower to speak of, a huge overlay sprocket on the rear wheel that constantly came loose, a tank shaped like a mailbox, a saddle that felt like plywood and a strange metal hook strategically placed to rip your crotch off if you crashed. It also had stupid bars, dumb fat grips from a street bike and a suspension that had more side-to-side travel than up-and-down stroke. I called it "a re-hashed Italian street bike with no redeeming traits." Yes, we promptly lost the H-D ads at the magazine.

Xdriver · Dec 8, 2011

From my visit to the HD museum. A little dual sporting from HD. Looks like a KLR.

ImageUploadedByTapatalk1323358356.150515.jpg

Monkey Wrench Cycles · Dec 8, 2011

Xdriver said:
From my visit to the HD museum. A little dual sporting from HD. Looks like a KLR.

View attachment 20592

Yeah, i saw one at auction about a year ago. It was in the harley section of the auction and me nor anybody else knew what the **** it was... It went for like $1500 and i found out later they are quite expensive(if i remember right it was worth somewhere around $5-6k)...

Xdriver · Dec 8, 2011

I found that Harley's had quite a history with hill climbing and even some enduro competitions believe it or not. Another interesting one. Kind of resembles a GS

ImageUploadedByTapatalk1323364841.923087.jpg

ImageUploadedByTapatalk1323364867.704857.jpg

Harley has branched out in the past. With designs by other people anyway. These were both for military applications. The "KLR" bike was used into the 80's I believe.

Mossrider · Dec 8, 2011

bmcdonau, your weiner dog avatar is very funny! :rofl:

.....Ken H., when you hit the lottery don't forget your ole' pal MOSS (me want XR-1200)

Tim Kreitz, when i was a kid all soft drink's were called "coke" what flavor do you want? grape? orange? big red? :giveup:

Monkey Wrench Cycle's Do you have any picture's of the "chop-cut-rebuild" buell blast? sure would like to see those, my imagination is going 100mph on that one! Oh yeah.........GO HARLEY! :rider:

Monkey Wrench Cycles · Dec 8, 2011

Mossrider said:
bmcdonau, your weiner dog avatar is very funny! .....Ken H., when you hit the lottery don't forget your ole' pal MOSS (me want XR-1200) Tim Kreitz, when i was a kid all soft drink's were called "coke" what flavor do you want? grape? orange? big red? Monkey Wrench Cycle's Do you have any picture's of the "chop-cut-rebuild" buell blast? sure would like to see those, my imagnation is going 100mph on that one! Oh yeah.........GO HARLEY!

Here is a thread i started on it. I always get sidetracked so it goes slow but im working on my frame jig so ill have the frame done by the end of winter at least...

http://www.twtex.com/forums/showthread.php?t=53274&highlight=buell+blast

M38A1 · Dec 8, 2011

Xdriver said:
From my visit to the HD museum. A little dual sporting from HD. Looks like a KLR.

View attachment 20592

That would be the HD MT-500 manufactured by Armstrong.

Manufacturer Armstrong-CCM Motorcycles
Production 1983–1987
Engine Rotax 504mil 481.3 cc Air-cooled single cylinder four-stroke, four-valve, single overhead cam
Power 32 bhp (24 kW) @ 6200 RPM
Torque 38 N·m (28 ft·lbf) @ 5500 RPM
Transmission "O" ring chain running on hardened steel sprockets
Wheelbase 145 centimetres (57 in)
Dimensions L 217 centimetres (85 in)
W 79 centimetres (31 in)
Fuel capacity 13 litres (2.9 imp gal)

Source:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armstrong_MT500

Which was then reduced in displacement to 350cc
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MT350E

Manufacturer Harley-Davidson
Predecessor Armstrong MT500
Engine Rotax 348 cc Air-cooled single cylinder four-stroke single overhead cam
Power 30 bhp (22 kW) @ 8000 RPM
Torque 28 N·m (21 ft·lbf) @ 6500 RPM
Transmission "O" ring chain running on hardened steel sprockets
Wheelbase 145 centimetres (57 in)
Dimensions L 217 centimetres (85 in)
W 79 centimetres (31 in)
Fuel capacity 13 litres (2.9 imp gal)

.

Meriden · Dec 8, 2011

Xdriver said:
I found that Harley's had quite a history with hill climbing and even some enduro competitions believe it or not. Another interesting one. Kind of resembles a GS

View attachment 20593

View attachment 20594

Harley has branched out in the past. With designs by other people anyway. These were both for military applications. The "KLR" bike was used into the 80's I believe.

That's the XA. It was an attempt to copy the BMWs used by the Afrika Corps. When I found "the barn" I was praying that one of these would be buried somewhere deep inside. Sadly there was nothing but a bunch of WLAs and the only boxers were a Zundapp and and R60.

HD was a very competitive machine until the 1950s when the British started importing lighter, better handling motorcycles. Rule management by sanctioning bodies and some models like the K in the mid '50s and the XR750 in the '70s kept them competitive in many events.

M38A1 · Dec 8, 2011

Interestingly, Kawasaki has made a DS model for the military as well. Referenced as the M1030 and M1030-B they have been in the 250cc class and 650cc class. A friend has an authentic USMC 650cc variant.

Here's his, a 2000 M1030B1

And to further add to the mix, Hayes Diversified Technologies is currently making the diesel version of the KLR650 for military use through an arrangement with Kawasaki.

.

JimNtexas · Dec 8, 2011

I've test ridden Harleys and other cruisers a number of times.

I have short stubby legs that have less flexibility than steel pipe. I love the fact that even I can gracefully mount these bikes with no stress or strains.

HDs are clearly very well made, the fit and finish on every new Harley I've looked at has been uniformly excellent. I am told that they are very reliable, and they really do have some nice high tech features.

I want so much to like them!

Sadly, after about 3 miles into the test ride I find myself irritated by the motors that idle like paint shakers. The parachute seating position, with my feet forward and up like a gynecologist's table is tiresome. I guess you're supposed to feel all macho riding a cruiser, but I start to feel somewhat embarrassed by the theatrical aspects of most cruisers, especially Harleys.

Defeated, I thank the nice folks at the HD dealer, go back to my too-high-for-me FJR, where, after climbing up on to the seat, I leave the parking lot and ride away on the bike that seems purpose built for comfortable high performance riding, with no compromises for the 'old school' or extraneous visual elements.

And that costs a lot less than most HDs.

I'm waiting for that low seat cruiser that I can enjoy riding.

wbrisett · Dec 11, 2011

JimNtexas said:
Defeated, I thank the nice folks at the HD dealer, go back to my too-high-for-me FJR, where, after climbing up on to the seat, I leave the parking lot and ride away on the bike that seems purpose built for comfortable high performance riding, with no compromises for the 'old school' or extraneous visual elements.

I'm not a cruiser style person, but I do love the air-cooled HD engine, which is what I really enjoy about the Buell Ulysses I have. Ergonomics are awesome for me (probably not for short legged people however), and while it "shakes like a paint can" at low RPMs, get it above about 2500 RPMs and it's very smooth. I'm very pleased with it. With HD killing Buell, I doubt seriously there will ever be a time I spend any more $$ on a new bike from HD. It's simply not offering anything I want. But you know, they really don't care, they want younger riders anyhow.

Wayne

Monkey Wrench Cycles · Dec 11, 2011

wbrisett said:
I'm not a cruiser style person, but I do love the air-cooled HD engine, which is what I really enjoy about the Buell Ulysses I have. Ergonomics are awesome for me (probably not for short legged people however), and while it "shakes like a paint can" at low RPMs, get it above about 2500 RPMs and it's very smooth. I'm very pleased with it. With HD killing Buell, I doubt seriously there will ever be a time I spend any more $$ on a new bike from HD. It's simply not offering anything I want. But you know, they really don't care, they want younger riders anyhow.

Wayne

All the new models of Sportster, ie Nightster, Iron, 48, XR1200, AND Buell were HD's link to younger riders. They make no excuses about their business model which was to get younger riders started on the entry level bikes and then move them up to the "bigger" bikes. I think they lost out on a lot of younger riders by discontinuing Buell.