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Harley to close assembly plant in Kansas City

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Meriden said:
... To Tim's point, HD is at the whims of it's stockholders and analysts...
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No, the real point is HD makes the perfect bike for its customers. Think about it.

I do not think it right to bash any rider of any motorcycle for visa-versa. Ride what you like and I will ride what I like. I do not need to bash someone else's bike to make me feel better.

Yes, HD may not handle if you want to play "speed racer," but they are excellant cruisers. People buy new cars modeled after cars of the 60s & 70s. Some people want bikes modeled after older cruisers. Who are we to say they are wrong?

Personally, I want to see HD not only survive, but thrive - just as I want all the manufactures to thrive. It is not just HD having problems. Motorcycle industry as a hole is suffering. Any manufacturer leaving the market will hurt cycling as a hole - especially Harley.
 
Tom, this isn't a knock against people who want old-style cruisers. It's a simple fact that Harley has built bikes for a specific clientele, and they're locked into that even though the clientele is aging and sales are dropping rapidly. Harley will at some point - probably sooner than later - have to find a path forward to survive.
 
How many bikes does HD make that aren't cruisers?

Exactly.

They make 1 style of bike, in a couple of different (almost) indistinguishable models.

If they didn't sell a ton of t-shirts, bandannas & accessories, they'd really be in a bind.
 
tshelfer said:
Tom, this isn't a knock against people who want old-style cruisers. It's a simple fact that Harley has built bikes for a specific clientele, and they're locked into that even though the clientele is aging and sales are dropping rapidly. Harley will at some point - probably sooner than later - have to find a path forward to survive.
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Yes, and it's also a defense of the people who chose not to ride HD, or ride at all.

So often there seems to be an underlying narrative in these "decline of the industry" threads that something is wrong with Gen-Not-Us. I disagree. If someone was to give my nephew who just graduated college $20k he would probably go back to Europe for another year rather than buy a bike and that's okay.

Sometimes it seems that anything that is not direct praise for The Motor Company is translated as a knock. Frankly, that perception may be more important to HD owners than the rest of us. I follow the mark because of the interesting business problems they present. Who knows, future HD may be the first to create a bike that goes 400 miles to between charges and can recharge in 5 minutes with a standard 120 volt outlet. If so there will be a line around the block to buy one and I'll be in it.
 
I found a decent article speaking about HD and future or not so future customers. I'll link the article but post a quote from the article that I think hits the nail right on the head.

http://www.thedrive.com/opinion/124...y-millenials-arent-buying-harleys?xid=fbshare


This all reminds me of a fascinating story Bob Lutz told about the Chrysler Imperial in an interview with Popular Mechanics. “That was the source of one of the major arguments Lee Iacocca and I had,” Lutz said of the Imperial. He said Iacocca showed him the car and asked what he thought. Lutz responded saying it looked “aesthetically, 10 years old the day it comes out” and went on to criticize the vinyl roof, the fake wire wheels, and the opera windows. Shocked, Iacocca responded saying “you might not like it because you’re too young, but by the time you’re 65, you’ll like a car like that.” What Lutz says next applied to the Imperial then and it applies to Harley-Davidson now. “I won’t because my generation admires high-end European cars. You like [the Imperial] because when you were 40-years-old, that’s what American luxury cars looked like.”
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I do feel sorry for HD and the position they're in. To some extent, any business has a life cycle, and some companies simply build their business model around the life cycle. Like restaurants. A company - or a group of investors - starts a restaurant chain based around casual dining, down home cooking, cheap steak dinners, or whatever. The chain starts up, gains popularity, peaks, and declines. Sometimes that takes 40 years, sometimes only 10. But the owners have gotten savvy. More and more, once a restaurant chain has passed its peak, they shut the whole thing down (laying off a lot of people in the process), bulldoze it, and drop a new chain of restaurants onto the same properties a year later.

Of course, it's a whole lot easier to shut down a Black Eyed Pea restaurant and get a Mexican restaurant up and running in the same spot than it is to replace an entire manufacturing company with another manufacturing company. What works for restaurants and sports fads doesn't translate so well to motorcycles and automobiles.
 
Doesn't changing the brake fluid, but not the part just kick the litigation can down the road a couple of years? HD must not think it's a problem if they wanted to do a field service campaign. Then again, Ford engineers wrote that fixing the Pinto was going to cost more than the financial exposure caused by the fires.
 
I wondered about that, too. Are they planning on offering free brake fluid changes for life?
 
I wonder why HD has not yet rolled an 883 based "Scrambler". Small and retro seem to be popular enough (Triumph, but not their only offering) (Royal Enfield their only offering) to maintain some sales in this area. Seems like the 883/Street 500/750 mills could be planted in an array of steel frames of different geometry, and everything else needed is on the shelf.

Sagging sales are not just HD's problem. With millennials and now the next gen, I would not be surprised to see Honda come back with their "You meet the nicest people..." campaign. Looking at the products they choose, they favor design, convenience, utility, value, and tech. Sounds a little like a medium sized bike or scooter to me.

The big question for HD may be will the customers and dealers welcome the new type of owners? My experience shopping Buells has me skeptical. I was a pre-Ulysses owner, dead set on this bike until a few visits to the American Eagle HD in Corinth had me reconsidering. I have since bought two Stroms. Last September a customer of ours, a young guy in his 20's, purchased a street 750. He has remarked on a few occasions (half jokingly) that he is treated like a second-class citizen by "real Harley guys".
 
Kinda like Ford/GM car salesmen in the late 70s or early 80s. Walk into a showroom to look at a new V-6 or 4-cyl car being touted by Car & Driver, and some grumpy salesman the age of my grandfather would grouse about their new offerings while trying to steer me toward a "real car." Inadvertently, they steered me toward a Nissan or Toyota dealership. Thanks, Gramps, but I'm not gonna drive your Delta 88.
 
TX_northstar said:
I wonder why HD has not yet rolled an 883 based "Scrambler". Small and retro seem to be popular enough (Triumph, but not their only offering) (Royal Enfield their only offering) to maintain some sales in this area. Seems like the 883/Street 500/750 mills could be planted in an array of steel frames of different geometry, and everything else needed is on the shelf.



Sagging sales are not just HD's problem. With millennials and now the next gen, I would not be surprised to see Honda come back with their "You meet the nicest people..." campaign. Looking at the products they choose, they favor design, convenience, utility, value, and tech. Sounds a little like a medium sized bike or scooter to me.



The big question for HD may be will the customers and dealers welcome the new type of owners? My experience shopping Buells has me skeptical. I was a pre-Ulysses owner, dead set on this bike until a few visits to the American Eagle HD in Corinth had me reconsidering. I have since bought two Stroms. Last September a customer of ours, a young guy in his 20's, purchased a street 750. He has remarked on a few occasions (half jokingly) that he is treated like a second-class citizen by "real Harley guys".
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I’m not a Harley guy. I’ve never owned one, never cared much for them (aside from a select few offerings), and have only ever ridden one about 10 miles. Even with that being the case I knew immediately that the Street line wouldn’t be viewed as a “real” Harley in that community.

This is the same group of people who have ruled the 883 to be a bike for women, and never accepted the V-Rod. Groupthink is a powerful thing.
 
h2000fb said:
No, the real point is HD makes the perfect bike for its customers. Think about it.

I do not think it right to bash any rider of any motorcycle for visa-versa. Ride what you like and I will ride what I like. I do not need to bash someone else's bike to make me feel better.

Yes, HD may not handle if you want to play "speed racer," but they are excellant cruisers. People buy new cars modeled after cars of the 60s & 70s. Some people want bikes modeled after older cruisers. Who are we to say they are wrong?

Personally, I want to see HD not only survive, but thrive - just as I want all the manufactures to thrive. It is not just HD having problems. Motorcycle industry as a hole is suffering. Any manufacturer leaving the market will hurt cycling as a hole - especially Harley.
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Well said. I agree.
 
I personally like my Ultra, the Strom and the DRZ. Each has its own purpose. Harley does need to branch out some and have a vision for new products. The Buell should have stayed around a while. Personally I like bikes in general. So. I hope all manufacturers have a bright future moving forward.
 
Harley makes a fine motorcycle...ride one, check out the paint, fit and finish.
Oil leaks - shovelhead days long ago. The Evo and Twin Cam engines run great from my experince - never a problem.

Cruiser yes - that style of bike has got them 115 years down the road. Made investors and thier employees lots of money over the years. Motorcycles in general and going to take a beating with this generation. The younger set is just not interested in motorcycles or cars for that matter.

I was at the KTM dealer checking out the 1090 ADV. - so much orange in that store, it will make your head hurt...bikes up on top of bikes. Orange on top of Orange. You could not put another one in the store. Big discounts on there top of the line ADV models that do not sell.

I would guess that HD will close a few more plants before it is all over. Corporate America overbuilt with the low interest rates of the past 10 years. HD has been though a number of storms in the past hundred years or so, I would not count them out just yet. Lets hope and pray they can find a profitable path and keep as many of their US workers employed as possible.

All they need too do is make a street tracker out of there current dirt track bike...this would be a money maker. Until then, I am thankful that I have a few HDs in the shop.
 
In ADV MOTO this month is an piece about HugoMoto.com that sells a dual sport kits for sportsters. It impresses a lot of people for under 4500 bucks. Why not a Harley factory unit. Kit comes with sprockets and chain and tensioner shocks forks bars and a few more items.
They have some builds on web site. They look much better to me than a Buell. Maybe more computer savvy can post a pic.
 
From the three or four books I have read on them, Harley was never known for being a leader in innovation from what I can tell. Just a couple of people who really liked bikes. While they worked on new ideas, they produced the “tried and true” because it was safer. Though new motor and carb ideas seemed to always be in design, HD seemed to always be trailing in taking them into production. I felt they were very conservative in that regards - sometimes to their detriment. However, that mentality did get them through many years of hard times. Though each book was a little different, it seems the general story lines went something like that. However, that was probably 15 years ago and I am not an expert on much of anything.

Then we have the late 50’s and 60’s - the Brits sending all those Triumphs, BSAs, Nortons, and such over here. Everyone preached the death of Harley and Indian. Harley does not know the market! (so says my 84 year old dad) Later the Jap and the European bikes arrived (my time) and came on strong. Wow! Honda, Kawasaki, Suzuki, YAMAHA, Bultacos, and Maicos! Harley is certainly dead now! Remember that? New HDs drained their oil across the dealer’s floor and dealers dropped like flies. Harley’s death seemed eminent. However, that seemed to only make them stronger and they came back with a vengeance. Funny though, same style.

My point is, most of us have forgotten all Harley has weathered and certainly do not have the experience or knowledge base they do. Their very conservative offerings mimic what they have always done. My son and son-in-law are millennials and love Harley’s, but their young families take precedent and money is tight. So does it they mean they will never buy one or perhaps wait until later? Who knows?

Do I have one? No, but I respect the brand.
 
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A motorcycle is not just the physical two wheels and steel. It's the whole product package, dealer experience, etc. HD could make the ultimate sport bike, but then, you have to go in the dealership and get past the Snell rated bandannas and chains & leather. I think I was in 2 HD dealerships with Buell and their presentation of it, and attitude towards it, was a joke. I don't see how they can back down the mountain of the image they built to get them to where they are going to die.
 
h2000fb said:
Then we have the late 50’s and 60’s - the Brits sending all those Triumphs, BSAs, Nortons, and such over here. Everyone preached the death of Harley and Indian. Harley does not know the market! (so says my 84 year old dad) Later the Jap and the European bikes arrived (my time) and came on strong. Wow! Honda, Kawasaki, Suzuki, YAMAHA, Bultacos, and Maicos! Harley is certainly dead now! Remember that? New HDs drained their oil across the dealer’s floor and dealers dropped like flies. Harley’s death seemed eminent. However, that seemed to only make them stronger and they came back with a vengeance. Funny though, same style.
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Federal Government meddling into the free market has saved them time and time again not the company themselves.
 
You can say what you want about the boomers dying off, the pirate lifestyle falling out of favor, Harley's insistence upon building the same motorcycle over and over again, etc. That stuff's only part of the equation. A bigger aspect to this issue is that all the major manufacturers have been scaling back production over the previous 15 or so years. The volume of motorcycles sold in America was somewhere on the order of 2.5 times bigger in the late 1990s and early 2000s than it is today. Harley was bound to have to drastically reduce its size at some point. This is it.

Harley will survive and do just fine in the long run if it makes good decisions right now. Plenty of young riders are interested in what Harley-Davidson has to offer, it's just a smaller number than in years past. The same goes for those interested in sportbikes, adventure bikes, and so forth. Thing is, even at the height of its might in the '90s, Harley was a niche product in a comparatively small industrial segment. It's simply tightening its belt and streamline its processes, same as everyone else at the moment, while demand for motorcycles is low.
 
TWTim said:
You can say what you want about the boomers dying off, the pirate lifestyle falling out of favor, Harley's insistence upon building the same motorcycle over and over again, etc. That stuff's only part of the equation. A bigger aspect to this issue is that all the major manufacturers have been scaling back production over the previous 15 or so years. The volume of motorcycles sold in America was somewhere on the order of 2.5 times bigger in the late 1990s and early 2000s than it is today. Harley was bound to have to drastically reduce its size at some point. This is it.

Harley will survive and do just fine in the long run if it makes good decisions right now. Plenty of young riders are interested in what Harley-Davidson has to offer, it's just a smaller number than in years past. The same goes for those interested in sportbikes, adventure bikes, and so forth. Thing is, even at the height of its might in the '90s, Harley was a niche product in a comparatively small industrial segment. It's simply tightening its belt and streamline its processes, same as everyone else at the moment, while demand for motorcycles is low.
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What he said. ;-)
 
Too true. The only manufacturer's that have been successful over the past few years have been concentrating on emerging market's like Brazil or SE Asia. Even Honda had a down year in 2017 and I think that only Hero is picking up steam. I read somewhere that even the Chinese manufacturer's were hurting because of increased antipollution regulations in China. Anyway, it's not that HD is being replaced by other brands, but that the recreational motorcycle industry is being disrupted.
 
tshelfer said:
Somehow, we keep circling back to this conversation. HD is trapped by their legacy and can't map a path to their future.

It has to be doable. Somehow, Cadillac unhitched itself from the blue-haired land yacht crowd, and remade itself as a legitimate sporty sedan maker. Then again, I suppose Cadillac had the advantage of being only one faction of the GM machine, meaning the corporation could withstand the losses while the Caddy division experimented with a few failed products before hitting some winners and getting traction with a younger crowd. Being a one-trick pony, HD may simply not have the flexibility to do so.
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Cadillac had a lot of help from the cross platform compatibility as well as the marketing blitz. Putting their latest gen ATS cars on the same platform that your average Cruze is based from and selling it for 65,000 goes a long way to making a turn around. HD doesn't have the luxury, aside from putting chrome spoke wheels on a leather couch and calling it an FLHC and trying to sell it for more than any other market bikes... You think they would have learned something after not being able to sustain EBR (which probably had a better business model than HD had for it's own bikes)...
 
TWTim said:
The volume of motorcycles sold in America was somewhere on the order of 2.5 times bigger in the late 1990s
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^- This.

Fewer and fewer kids play outside these days. They don't learn to ride bicycles. Motorcycles seem too skeery for many young men raised on soy milk, xbox, and surveillance camera nannies.

Plus, the teenagers who watched Joe Namath and Peter Fonda ride Harley's in the 1970's at the drive-in theater are now too old to ride.

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