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Questions- MP3 in general, Ipod in particular

HouFJR said:
I buy from AllOfMP3.com. It's in Russia. It's legal.

Actually, it's legal in Russia. Not quite so legal here, but who cares, right?

Although I agree, I've bought a total of eight songs from the iTunes store. I rip my own off CDs. I can't stand the thought of something goofing up and loosing all my songs:eek2:

Like just happened with all my album artwork...lost 'em all. For no particular reason.
 
Hammer said:
How hard is the actual management of the music once it is on the iPod and you want to play something specific?
I've got a pretty significant CD collection that has been ripped to WMA for downloading to a portable device but since size is limited, I put on what I'm interested in playing for a specific trip and just let it loop.

I'm looking at getting a 60GB iPod and thinking that figuring out what I want to play when with the thing may become a challenge.

You've got several options. You can select music by genre, by artist, and by album. But playlists are what I use.

On your computer, you build playlists with whatever songs you like. You can either build them manually, or create rules, like "35 rock songs from the 80's that I've rated as 3 stars or higher, but not the Beatles". You can create lots of these playlists, and pick 'em from a menu on the iPod.

It's very slick, and pretty simple.
 
Chirpy said:
Actually, it's legal in Russia. Not quite so legal here, but who cares, right?

Actually, according to US law, it's legal to import music that's legally sold in the country from which you import it. AllOfMP3 follows Russian laws, so it's 100% legal there, and thus 100% legal for US citizens to buy from 'em. (Disclaimer: I'm not a lawyer. This isn't legal advice. If you need legal advice, talk to a lawyer.)

http://www.museekster.com/allofmp3faq.htm

There's a reason that the RIAA hasn't gone after those who buy from them. They can't.

The way I look at it, the US recording industry legally screws artists out of their royalties (and has been doing so for decades) so it's about time for the consumer to legally screw the recording industry out of their profits.

It's social protest and a great deal, all rolled into one. I love capitalism.
 
We did this with Jack a long time ago, so I'll stick with the condensed version of the AllOfMP3 argument.

Legal.

Read your link. It's the one everyone hides behind. It states it isn't legal advice, and contains a lot of "should", "might" and "DISCLAIMER" all over the place.

My favorite "Please note – This is in no way a legal advice. -- please see our disclaimer.

This is what a more law educated person like the Tech Law Advisor has published regarding this issue:

Additionally, assuming they have legitimate licenses to distribute the music, they probably are restricted to a certain geographic are via their distribution license. The end user wouldn't be violating any laws but the distributor would. If they don't have legitimate distribution licenses then they obviously have no right to distribute at any price. If they claim to have the licenses the end user might be seen as an innocent infringer if not on notice."

Since the Beatles and Metallica have never licensed their music for online use, it's safe to say that at least for those two entities they don't have a legitimate license. Just because the RIAA can't go after them, doesn't make it legal. How do you sue a Russian company? In Russia? Sure. In the Hague? Lot's of luck unless you use a French frontman, the Americans loose everytime in the World Court.

Even a layman should be able to figure out that it's not legal in the US, it's just not worth the RIAA's return to fight it right now in the World or Russian courts. Enough people start using it, and I bet that changes.

Never confuse what hasn't been prosecuted with what is legal, and don't confuse what's legal with what is right.

What's Right

Social Protest? So if you come over and steal my CDs is that social protest? Guess what, you better do it when I'm not home, or I'll exercise my LEGAL right to generate business for a carpet cleaning service. The LA riots were social protest, after they were over.

The artist doesn't get paid when you buy from AllOfMP3. Period. Not a dime, not a nickel. Read you Museekter filing, the only agreement is with the Russian copyright folks, not the artists. So basically you have one outfit telling another that it's okay to steal, as long as we get a cut.

In other words, a guy on the street says you can steal my CDs, as long as he gets the Judas Priest one when you're done. Does that make it legal? Maybe in Russia, but not here.

Let's look at the mean evil record companies that the artists whine about by the way. First, no one makes them sign the contract, do they? Is it the companies fault that they don't read it first?

The whole issue is that the mean record company fronts hundreds of thousands of dollars in studio time, gear rental, producer salaries, tour buses, t-shirts and all kinds of other stuff. When (XXXXXXXX - name changed to protect the guilty) was signed by a little label here in Austin years ago, they even put them up in a nice two story house on Lake Austin so they could work on their second album and have a place to tour from without being scattered all over the state.

Guess what they did? Smoked pot and shot pool. No body even bothered to get a job, instead they started hocking their gear to eat! So they couldn't go on tour (which they could keep that money). They waited for the album. It did okay on the college playlists of the time, but when their year was up with no second album in sight, the mean nasty A&R guy had to cut them loose, as they had burned through their initial $500,000 advance and the record didn't come close to selling that well. There were no marketing funds left, because that's how the A&R guy was paying the rent. He didn't know he'd be paying it all year...

The drummer hates the record company to this day, and whines about the evil system.

Hey guys, use your own money up front and pay for your own studio time. Then you won't pay "inflated record company rates" and have these huge debts that the record company wants paid back when you do well.

You'll notice that the artists don't whine until they have a gold or platinum under their belt, and they find that the free ride they have had all this time is now being collected.

There are always two sides to every story. Just no body wants to look at the cold hard numbers of the record company side of the story.

But from AllOfMP3 all you want, but you're cheating the artist, not the record company. Not only do they not see the revenue from the song, it doesn't even count as a sale in the eyes of the company to keep their free ride going a little bit longer.
 
Hammer said:
How hard is the actual management of the music once it is on the iPod and you want to play something specific?
I've got a pretty significant CD collection that has been ripped to WMA for downloading to a portable device but since size is limited, I put on what I'm interested in playing for a specific trip and just let it loop.

I'm looking at getting a 60GB iPod and thinking that figuring out what I want to play when with the thing may become a challenge.

Then again, maybe it won't. I've spent about 7 seconds actually touching an iPod so know nothing about their user interface.

The iPod for the most part works just like iTunes except in a much smaller package.

From the main screen you have a "Music" option, under that (click the middle button) you have Playlists, Artists, Albums, Songs, Podcasts, Genres, Composers, Audiobooks. each of those fields is setup under iTunes.
Playlists is the playlists that you have created in iTunes.
Artists is an alphabetical listing of all the artists on the pod
Ditto for the rest.

the more songs you have the harder it is to find the one you are looking for.

For the most part, I just listen to my playlists.

The main reason that I went with the iPod was I got a REALLY good deal on it (50% off) that and the accessories.

I have a 4G 40GB iPod w/ the black and white screen. I have had it replaced 2x under warranty cause it just quit. no reason, it just quit. Its been darn near everywhere with me. in the boat, on the bike (through 2 accidents, it was still playing after both of them) mudding in the 4x4 etc and i've NEVER had it skip.

if mine bites the dust and they won't replace it I will go out and get another one w/o hesitation.
 
(Long, and off topic, unless you care about music and the business.)

Chirpy, do you work for a record company? Sounds to me like you're spouting the party line.

I read the link. And I find your arguments to be, well, misleading.

Distribution licensed to a limited geographic area? You seem to forget that the Russian ROMS isn't bound by the RIAA member edicts. They're Russian, not American, and are thus bound by Russian law, not the inane American laws written by the RIAA and their minions. Their "store" is in Russia; I'm just buying from them, and legally importing a product that is legal in its country of origin.

The Beatles and Metallica argument is the same. In Russia, the license is compusory, just as some are here in the USA. The difference here is that in the USA, the compulsory licenses benefit the record companies. In Russia, they benefit the consumer.

As far as what's right, no one's stealing your CD. You've still got it. Another straw man. I believe that the record companies have created an oligopoly that systematically screws the artist and the consumer, and thanks to the global marketplace, there's now a way to cut those theves out of the picture.

It must suck to be them. Their antiquated, corrupt business model is being conveniently bypassed, and before long, they'll have to EARN money. What a shame.

Many moons ago I was a principal in an on-line record label startup in Austin. We learned a lot about how the record biz works, and in a nutshell, it's a methodical screwing of the artist. The screwing of the consumer is a newer development, but they're made great strides.

I'm sure you know these things, but other folks may not. Recording contracts have clauses in them that reduce royalties for breakage... the kind that was an issue in the days BEFORE LPs. And it's still there, for every "record" sold, in the era of CDs and MP3s. It's not justified anymore, but it's still there.

The record companies tried to slip a little change into the copyright code about reverted rights. They wanted a wee little change, and it wasn't discussed, it was slipped in. The change was having rights revert to the publisher, when it currently reverts to the author. That little scam was stopped.

These are the same folks who are trying to destroy the concept of fair use; they've tried to make it illegal for a consumer to make backups of the music he has bought.

And don't get me started on the DMCA, the darling legislation of the RIAA and their ilk. It's now illegal to reverse engineer copy protection. So, even though you've got the fair use right to back up media that you've legally purchased, it's ILLEGAL to do the work required to actually do so. That's a nice end-around on consumer rights.

The deductions from the artist's royalties are amazing. The "packaging" deduction; the band pays for packaging the CD. The producer deduction. Etc.

And then there's recoupment. All that studio time you talked about? The band pays that out of their royalties. Promotion? Ditto. The only thing that the record companies don't grab is the advance: If the royalties don't cover the costs of the studio, the packaging, and the promotion, they don't have to pay back the advance.

As far as "cheating the artist", that's simply not true. In around 80% of all cases, the advance is all the artist ever sees. So in those cases, the royalties that the RIAA considers due is simply money into the pocket of the record company.

As soon as record companies start respecting MY rights, I'll respect theirs. All they do is manipulate the system for their gain, so I'm doing the same. Legally, just like they do.

Karma is a witch. With a capital B.
 
Chirpy said:
The whole issue is that the mean record company fronts hundreds of thousands of dollars in studio time, gear rental, producer salaries, tour buses, t-shirts and all kinds of other stuff. When (XXXXXXXX - name changed to protect the guilty) was signed by a little label here in Austin years ago, they even put them up in a nice two story house on Lake Austin so they could work on their second album and have a place to tour from without being scattered all over the state.

Guess what they did? Smoked pot and shot pool. No body even bothered to get a job, instead they started hocking their gear to eat! So they couldn't go on tour (which they could keep that money). They waited for the album. It did okay on the college playlists of the time, but when their year was up with no second album in sight, the mean nasty A&R guy had to cut them loose, as they had burned through their initial $500,000 advance and the record didn't come close to selling that well. There were no marketing funds left, because that's how the A&R guy was paying the rent. He didn't know he'd be paying it all year...

The drummer hates the record company to this day, and whines about the evil system.

Hey guys, use your own money up front and pay for your own studio time. Then you won't pay "inflated record company rates" and have these huge debts that the record company wants paid back when you do well.

You'll notice that the artists don't whine until they have a gold or platinum under their belt, and they find that the free ride they have had all this time is now being collected.

There are always two sides to every story. Just no body wants to look at the cold hard numbers of the record company side of the story.

But from AllOfMP3 all you want, but you're cheating the artist, not the record company. Not only do they not see the revenue from the song, it doesn't even count as a sale in the eyes of the company to keep their free ride going a little bit longer.

Works the same way for the computer game industry, and I suspect many others. Most game studios work on advances against royalties.

Most games don't sell enough to pay off those advances, or not much more.

Most game publishers go out of business because they passed out way too many advances that slogges into delayed releases and yet more advances, and hit chapter 7 when the product sales didn't cover all the money laid out. The studio that produced the game is liable for paying back what advances aren't covered by sales though.

Retailers are the bad guys there, they charge for shelf space, they charge for placement, they demand cheaper product, and what doesn't sell the publisher has to buy back from them. Retailers take almost zero risk. even if they reduce the price, the publisher has to take the hit there as well.

The music business isn't a lot different. Just larger market. The advances passed out are in the millions, with a real risk it's just going down the toilet in the end.
 
The music business really has nothing to do with music, they are just a finance company selling a product for the most part and just like your bank or credit card company they "fee" you to death. These are mega-corporations that have swollowed up most of the small competition out there, not that I can blame them for selling out to the big money. They have very little patience with artist development anymore and unfortunately feel like they know much, much more than the artists do about what is good for their career when all they are interested in is the next "big thing" instead of the neat "great artist" or long term thing. History is full of artists who blossomed when someone who had a clue let them do what they feel is right. But in most corporate culture, that person must be fired.

I worked in the distribution end (retail and wholesale) and have family in the artist end. They did pretty well, RCA did even better and they were let go when their albums (yeah, I still call'em that) didn't sell up to expectations. This was after being with the company for 12 years and having 11 number 1 singles and several gold records and one platinum record (not as common in Nashville back then as it is now). They are now with a smaller label (with major distribution) and it is the best contract they have ever had. They have considered self distribution but this company recruited them hard after they reformed the group.

Yes there is money fronted, but in most cases it is in pretty small amounts, the days of the large "free" money advances are pretty much over. Plus you can be under contract and never have them release a single thing and you pretty much only have the option of buying your own contract out. Most artist contracts pay roughly 18-26% before expenses, out of that come all of the record company expenses (studio time, manufacture, distribution, packaging and promotion) all with a healthy markup. That s a pretty healthy return on an investment since there probably aren't as many toking away contracts as in day past. Then they have to pay for touring, management, etc. so their net is in the 8-12% range for most artists who have moderate success. As far as buying them from Russia? well I don't, I have a bought a few things from iTunes (mostly single songs to replace something from a damaged CD) but I still prefer the to have the CD in my possession.

To me the main issue with the "offshore retailers" is that most of them couldn't bring their "inventory" (in a physical sense) into the US without violating copyright laws, no matter how screwed up those laws may be I don't see it as being legal.

If you really want to support the artists, go see them live for that is where the majority make their money, the only ones that make big money from the record companies are the ones who are already at a superstar level.
 
Amen, Scott. Go see the band. Buy their shirt. Heck, I wish more would set up something like TipJar, where you can pay them directly.

If I actually thought the artist was going to see any of the money I'd spent on an album, I'd probably buy more CDs (I've got about 450 now).
 
HouFJR said:
Amen, Scott. Go see the band. Buy their shirt. Heck, I wish more would set up something like TipJar, where you can pay them directly.

If I actually thought the artist was going to see any of the money I'd spent on an album, I'd probably buy more CDs (I've got about 450 now).
can I copy some???
 
I bought a 400 disc changer and have a 50 disk, I figured out that I need an additional 400 disc when loading them up.
 
Nope, I don't work for a record company. I just don't buy the "record company screws artist so I can steal from them" line. I like to get paid for my work. You probably do to.

How does Russian law apply to American recordings, that were probably never LEGALLY exported to Russia? It doesn't. But apparently it helps you salve you conscience. Besides I have a hard time beleiving that any of that stuff was licensed for resale in Russia. In fact, we KNOW that the Beatles and Metallica haven't. Without that original export license, even the opinion on the posting says it's not legal, even in Russia! Just because you get away with something, doesn't make it legal. Unless you're in Congress, and that's a different thread.

Again, remember, I said there is a difference between what's "legal" and what's "right". AllOfMP3 isn't paying artists anything, so how can it be right? By their own admission they only pay the Russian copyright board.

My theft analogy is sound. Having some Russia copyright outfit say it's legal to rip American CDs and resell them to America is the same as a guy standing in front of my house saying "Go ahead, step in and take anything you want". Doesn't mean it's legal, but hopefully the dude has already made sure I'm not home for you.

And nowhere did I say record companies were right. They held a gun to Apple's head about .99¢ songs this go around...they wanted to jack it up. If Jobs didn't control Pixar and have major Disney stroke .99¢ songs would be dead. Probably looking at $1.99. For nothing, when they already get about .91¢ of the .99¢!

But no one makes the artist sign the contract and take the advances. It's just the easiest thing to do. You always pay for easy. Don't pay someone to pull your wheels, and then fuss when you find out how easy it is. They have stands, and have already paid rookie tax. That's worth something.

All I know about the record business is that they used to pay my buddy to smoke pot and play pool. He thought it was a great deal for a year. Now he thinks they are jerks. Go figure.

And no, I don't understand how buying from a service that generates NO revenue for the artist is better or helps them in their fight against record companies that don't pay them very much. If it makes you happy, continue to do so. But just because you do it, doesn't make it legal or right in everyone else's eyes.
 
"Legally?" As I understand it, Russian IP law doesn't require licensing; it's compulsory.

Before you say that's anti-American, realize that we have the same laws here; a songwriter can't control who records his song (after the first recording is released). The only requirement is that royalties are paid. Russian music licensing works the same way.

Artists don't get paid directly in the US, either. Payments often go through BMI or ASCAP, which pays the labels, which (in theory) pays the artist. After they deduct for all their marked-up "services", some of which don't actually exist, like breakage on MP3 files.

That's why your "right and wrong" hits home. If the labels were ethical, I'd see this end-around on their revenue stream as a problem. But they've played the American system (and the lawmakers) to give themselves a license to legally steal from artists. So I see no problem legally "stealing" back from them.

And your theft analogy isn't right, for one key reason: The guy in front of your house causes your stuff to disappear. If I buy an MP3 from Russia, no one's CD disappears. It's the nature of IP versus physical property.

You're right. No one makes the artists sign. But all the major labels offer essentially the same deal (anticompetitive, anyone) so if you want to publish records, you grab your ankles, and get a little instead of what the music's actually worth.

And as far as the service generating no revenue for the artist, that's not true. The publisher can file the paperwork to get his payment with the Russian agency; few do, because they're afriad it will legitimize the channel.

I can't MAKE them take the money that's theirs. All I can do is follow the law, and find the best deal that I can live with ethically.
 
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