The Pan America is official...what do we think?

[bwdmax]

Wonder how their street cred would fare showing up to a biker bar on one...

My neighbor is a genuine 3-patch vest wearing biker so I get to see plenty of the coming and going next door. His club associates ride all types of bikes. I have seen them show up on sport bikes, naked street fighters, gold wing even can-am spyder. Several of them have dirt bikes they ride off-road and are serious motorcycle riders. I don't think their street cred would be harmed in any way if they showed up at the "club house" or bar with a Pan-American.

 

[bwdmax]

One thing I noticed while watching @misterk video and you can see it in a couple of photos was the position of the bar clamps. The bars have a lot rearward sweep in them to get them back to the rider. When the bars are positioned like this they tend to sweep around the steering head instead of over the steering head. I notice it mostly on slow speed or standing and turning the bars tight, it tends to move your upper body outside of center line as your hands travel a different arc than the triple clamps. I find this not to be a good thing for me on bikes I ride on non-paved surfaces. I think that may be the cause of the steering heaviness that @MacDaddy talked about in the video and in post #120. Who knows? Maybe i'm just crazy.

 

[misterk]

So... who is buying one?

I actually think I will buy one this fall. Not to replace the AT but as a long distance adventure tourer.

I want to wait and discover what “known” issues will appear.

I know 2 of them got towed back to the dealership Saturday. I didn’t ask about the cause.

 

[pacman]

So... who is buying one?

I know this is a fully-beaten dead horse, but....

I might, but it's going to depend on what happens when I go to the dealer. I've read and heard the comments saying that HD stores and the salespeople are different these days. I hope so, and we'll see soon enough if that's actually true.

I've also read the comments that call people who think like me a snowflake for allowing ourselves to get butthurt over a little bad customer service years ago. To them I have to ask, why would anyone subject themselves to that kind of environment, if indeed it still exists, when there are so many other good choices on the market?

If I'm going to buy a new bike with a full warranty, I'm going to be at the dealer regularly for service. The last thing I want in a long term relationship like that is to be marginalized by the staff while I'm there.

As for the HD community as a whole, I couldn't care less about that. If I buy this bike I'm not buying into the "HD lifestyle". I've met plenty of HD riders who are very friendly, and I'd happily ride with any of them. I've also met plenty, both young and old, who are total douchebags. I won't surround myself with people like that in any aspect of my life, including motorcycling.

I just want good service and to be treated well when I'm spending my dollars. I hope that happens. I'll do my best to go in with an open mind and give them a fair chance.
I'm not a Karen so if things go poorly I'm not gonna stomp my foot and demand to talk to the manager. I'll just walk out and continue shopping somewhere else.

Other than that, yeah I can totally see myself buying this bike. I think it would make a great 2-up all-roads touring machine, which is exactly what I'm looking for.

/dead horse beating

 

[Jarrett]

I am curious to see if the HD dealerships accept this bike or will it be another forgotten model for them.

I could see there being some acrimony at dealerships being made to cater to us ADV types now.

Especially when they seemed to have spurned those types of riders in the past.

 

[misterk]

I had to reload

 

[mr72]

Other than that, yeah I can totally see myself buying this bike. I think it would make a great 2-up all-roads touring machine, which is exactly what I'm looking for.

What I'm wondering is, what is it about the H-D that will make you choose it over other more mature "2-up all-roads touring machine" bikes out there already?

Just trying to figure out what Harley's market differentiation is going to look like. Do people pick what is, frankly, a pretty unproven newcomer to the market that's full of mature products, because they like the extensive dealer network? Warranty? Does it perform enough better to offset the risk? Is it because you want to support an American company? The businessman in me wants to know how this is going to work in the market.

As it happens, I am just not in the target market for this kind of bike, so I am not a good judge of this kind of stuff. But I'm interested in how the market is perceiving Harley's new products outside their normal segment and whether this bet is going to pay off for TheMoCo.

 

[pacman]

What I'm wondering is, what is it about the H-D that will make you choose it over other more mature "2-up all-roads touring machine" bikes out there already?

Currently window shopping Yamaha, Honda, and Triumph. As long as it's a competitive product to those, which it seems to be, I'd buy it over those because it's made in America.

 

[misterk]

Currently window shopping Yamaha, Honda, and Triumph. As long as it's a competitive product to those, which it seems to be, I'd buy it over those because it's made in America.

I am not sure about this, but I think the engine is made in Taiwan.

 

[mr72]

Currently window shopping Yamaha, Honda, and Triumph. As long as it's a competitive product to those, which it seems to be, I'd buy it over those because it's made in America.

Do you equate "assembled in America from predominantly foreign-sourced sub-assemblies" with "made in America"?

Again, it's my contention that Harley can't remain viable if they stick to their "made [assembled] in America" policy because labor and manufacturing plant cost are so high that they can't make a price competitive product this way. But I may be underestimating the differentiating value of this among their target market. I actually don't think the younger demographic they need to target for a growth market values this at all, since virtually all of the stuff they buy besides motorcycles is manufactured entirely overseas.

 

[MacDaddy]

I can't speak to the above, but maybe I can address a different piece of the puzzle. If I were in the market now, having the test ride is a very big thing. Sort of a pass/fail thing. I hate laying down several thousands of dollars hoping I like it. Snatchy throttle between closed and open for instance, poor windflow/buffeting, poor suspension, crappy XXX? That's like when our legislators tell us, we had to pass the bill to find out what's in it.

So I rode a bike Saturday that I thought was pretty darn good and would work for a lot of how I have traditionally used a motorcycle. I couldn't get a test ride on the used Tenere I bought in 2015, so I took a chance based on other's reviews. Eventually I liked much about the bike, but I hated the girth near the front of the tank immediately, and every time I road in the dirt thereafter. Given a test ride, I probably would have passed on it.

I love going to demo rides and experiencing what else is out there even if I don't want to own it. I've gone to a few where I was very exited to try something because I was thinking of buying it. Turned out it was a no go for some reason but then I fell in love something else I hadn't really considered. So to recap, test rides are awesome!

 

[mr72]

I can't speak to the above, but maybe I can address a different piece of the puzzle. If I were in the market now, having the test ride is a very big thing.

I can't imagine why anyone would buy a [running] motorcycle at all without a test ride. But I've only bought two, and both of them used. Is it a common practice for new motorcycle dealers to expect you to purchase before you can ride it?

 

[misterk]

What I'm wondering is, what is it about the H-D that will make you choose it over other more mature "2-up all-roads touring machine" bikes out there already?

Just trying to figure out what Harley's market differentiation is going to look like. Do people pick what is, frankly, a pretty unproven newcomer to the market that's full of mature products, because they like the extensive dealer network? Warranty? Does it perform enough better to offset the risk? Is it because you want to support an American company? The businessman in me wants to know how this is going to work in the market.

As it happens, I am just not in the target market for this kind of bike, so I am not a good judge of this kind of stuff. But I'm interested in how the market is perceiving Harley's new products outside their normal segment and whether this bet is going to pay off for TheMoCo.

The only other “2 up all roads touring machine” I would consider is the GSA because of the 8 gallon tank.

The PA has 5.5 with avg. 45mpg so that is good enough for me.

PA pros:
butter smooth riding,
wind management,
motor (smooth and powerful),
transmission-smooth and good gearing
Lower maintenance intervals
Dealer Network - TBD if accepted
Fun bike
Standing position

PA cons

Do I need 150hp? This could get me in trouble.

New model: Reliability factor will be determined soon enough.

 

[2WheelNut]

Made in America or Assembled in America would be nice.

At a minimum, it's good that an American Motorcycle Company remains viable. They are really the last one, and I hope they make it.

I personally would pay a 20-30% premium for the product or be willing to take a chance on a new, unproven model, if it allowed me to support an American company.

I don't need a Pan American, but I'm tempted to buy one anyway just because it's from HD. I always said I'd buy one if they ever made something that actually performed and didn't just make lots of noise and look pretty. I may buy one just because they made something that I like.

 

[X1Glider]

It would be odd if they did allow it. I can't imagine how many bikes would get tore up let alone the liability involved for the riders. You might have to start with 100 bikes at the beginning of the demo season to end up with 12 at the end.

Rightly, so. A "typical HD rider" wrecked a Buell Blast at a Battletrax course in the parking lot of Republic HD in Sugarland many years back. Damage was more than dealer cost for a new bike. Rider thought the wreck was kind of funny after he dusted himself off and walked back to his own bike.

 

[mr72]

At a minimum, it's good that an American Motorcycle Company remains viable. They are really the last one, and I hope they make it.

What about Indian and Zero? I mean, Polaris make a lot more than just Indian motos, but they also are bigger than HD.

For me, I can't support the success of a company who has a bad business plan vs. others who are better at what they do simply because they employ Americans in assembly plants. I say if you want to support an American motorcycle company, get a Zero or an Indian. Or one of the numerous boutiques. But I wouldn't reward H-D with my business simply because they are are American, not when other worthy American companies are out there. If H-D dies off it makes a lot more room for better-run American companies to fill the void.

Let's say there are n potential buyers of a new big adventure touring bike like the Pan American. Among those, m are motivated primarily by country of assembly. Problem is, I think, Harley thinks there are n+m total potential buyers of new big adventure touring bikes, and that m represents people who will not buy anything that was not "made" in America. But if H-D had not chosen to put the Pan American out, then those m buyers may have provided enough potential to persuade Indian to bring a big adventure bike to market, and that m buyers would still be able to buy an American motorcycle and also reward a better-run American company. Maybe even Zero will come out with a big adventure bike. Shouldn't we be supporting American innovation and excellence?

I guess I'm trying to determine whether this is just a "the only real motorcycles are Harley Davidson YEE HAW!" kind of thing. Maybe it is, but in that case I think this will be a huge disaster for H-D. They need to be able to court net-new market by expanding. Selling Harley fanbois another Harley is not what they need to sustain them more than a few more quarters or maybe a few more years. A decade from now, they will need to have put out a product that people who never even considered buying a Harley will want, because it's a better fit for them than anything coming from the other companies out there. An expensive ("American") e-bike is a solved problem (Zero) and Indian is increasingly proving that the death of the American heavyweight cruiser market is false.

 

[pacman]

Do you equate "assembled in America from predominantly foreign-sourced sub-assemblies" with "made in America"?

Not precisely, but it's as close as we're going to get for now.

Like I said above, if it's a competitive product, and the dealer doesn't ruin it, I'd like to help keep those HD "assembly plants" going. I'm not blindly "buy American at all costs", but it's still a factor for me.

Again, it's my contention that Harley can't remain viable if they stick to their "made [assembled] in America" policy because labor and manufacturing plant cost are so high that they can't make a price competitive product this way. But I may be underestimating the differentiating value of this among their target market. I actually don't think the younger demographic they need to target for a growth market values this at all, since virtually all of the stuff they buy besides motorcycles is manufactured entirely overseas.

I think you probably have a good point here about Millennials and Gen Z, but not Gen X. I think Gen X (my generation), which has significant buying power right now and will have for quite some time, still think very much like I do.

Gen X stats

 

[mr72]

I think you probably have a good point here about Millennials and Gen Z, but not Gen X. I think Gen X (my generation), which has significant buying power right now and will have for quite some time, still think very much like I do.

Gen X stats

I am smack in the middle of Gen-X too. I am not sure Gen-Xers have such a positive impression of American-made products on the whole. In my experience, when we were all growing up, we saw Japanese and European brands represent quality and aspirational products far more frequently than American brands. So I think Gen-X are going to be much less likely to buy American than baby boomers, who were potentially conditioned to consider Japanese, German and Italian made stuff as "the enemy" from WWII-influenced parents. The one thing Gen-X are less likely to value IME is stuff made in China. BTW a lot of Harley parts are made in China. Of course a lot of my Jeep's parts were made in China. That's because nearly all parts of anything are made in China.

I don't have data to back this up. It's just my own impression.

 

[MacDaddy]

I can't imagine why anyone would buy a [running] motorcycle at all without a test ride. But I've only bought two, and both of them used. Is it a common practice for new motorcycle dealers to expect you to purchase before you can ride it?

There are a few exceptions but it’s almost impossible to get a test ride on a Japanese bike unless they have a demo put on by the manufacture. Euro brands much easier.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[pacman]

I am smack in the middle of Gen-X too. I am not sure Gen-Xers have such a positive impression of American-made products on the whole. In my experience, when we were all growing up, we saw Japanese and European brands represent quality and aspirational products far more frequently than American brands. So I think Gen-X are going to be much less likely to buy American than baby boomers, who were potentially conditioned to consider Japanese, German and Italian made stuff as "the enemy" from WWII-influenced parents. The one thing Gen-X are less likely to value IME is stuff made in China. BTW a lot of Harley parts are made in China. Of course a lot of my Jeep's parts were made in China. That's because nearly all parts of anything are made in China.

I don't have data to back this up. It's just my own impression.

It's a fascinating conversation for sure. There are as many opinions as there are motorcycle riders circulating right now about HD's future and how/if this bike fits into it, and if it can help build a stronger future for the company. Hope I live long enough to see how it plays out!

 

[William Wolfen]

I can't imagine why anyone would buy a [running] motorcycle at all without a test ride. But I've only bought two, and both of them used. Is it a common practice for new motorcycle dealers to expect you to purchase before you can ride it?

It's not just a common practice, it's a nearly universal practice. Only times I've ever gotten the opportunity to ride a bike before signing on the dotted line was on used bikes. My understanding is that BMW and Harley are the main exceptions. It's a pretty lousy situation.

There are a few exceptions but it’s almost impossible to get a test ride on a Japanese bike unless they have a demo put on by the manufacture. Euro brands much easier.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I'm curious as to what the exceptions you've encountered are?

 

[pacman]

Baldy (founder of ADVRider) is doing a ride and review of the Pan Am and posting updates here. Start at the bottom and scroll up.

 

[mr72]

It's not just a common practice, it's a nearly universal practice. Only times I've ever gotten the opportunity to ride a bike before signing on the dotted line was on used bikes.

There are a few exceptions but it’s almost impossible to get a test ride on a Japanese bike unless they have a demo put on by the manufacture. Euro brands much easier.

Wow. Guess I will not be buying a new motorcycle. Not that I'm interested in paying the depreciation of a new bike anyway, or really interested in a new Japanese motorcycle. I'd say this would totally rule it out.

No wonder there was so much interest in this demo day thing with the PA. And I always thought it was odd that dealers would send out demo day emails. But I've only ever even looked at used bikes at dealers, which I have test-ridden every time. I probably rode five or six Bonnevilles before I bought mine, at least three at dealers.

 

[Jarrett]

It's not just a common practice, it's a nearly universal practice. Only times I've ever gotten the opportunity to ride a bike before signing on the dotted line was on used bikes. My understanding is that BMW and Harley are the main exceptions. It's a pretty lousy situation.I'm curious as to what the exceptions you've encountered are?

I rode my Africa Twin new. Actually rode three of them at different dealers. Rode a new NC700X at the same time. I ALMOST dropped one of the new Africa Twins on a demo, but just sheer fear/will dead lifted it back up. My VFR1200X was used, but the same dealer would have let me ride a new had I asked. Couldn't get a demo on a new KLR, but got a test ride on a used one.

I did demo the Yamaha Tracer 900 GT new. Demo'ed the Zero's, Triumph, Ducati, KTM, all new. I guess I didn't realize it, but I moved away from Japanese bikes pretty quickly once I got to riding a bit, so I didn't realize that its hard to get a test ride on one. The other brands seem to be much more lenient on that. Some stores will practically throw the keys at you.

I don't think I'll ever buy a bike again that I couldn't test ride first. As McDaddy said, you can fall in love with a bike on paper, then ride it and find out it is not for you. That's a tough pill to swallow after the deal is final.

 

[mr72]

I don't think I'll ever buy a bike again that I couldn't test ride first. As McDaddy said, you can fall in love with a bike on paper, then ride it and find out it is not for you. That's a tough pill to swallow after the deal is final.

I think I'll never start buying bikes without a test ride. And for me it's more that I can fall back in love with one that I didn't like on paper, usually due to weight. That's why I bought a Bonneville instead of a Ducati Scrambler... I was convinced the power and weight of the Duc would be the killer app but the on the bike feel of the Triumph won me over instantly. IDK, motorcycling is so much about how you feel doing it, I can't imagine making a choice like this without trying it.