A long but interesting read about speed limits and safety

[Tourmeister]

Howdy,

We've all griped about speed limits and enforcement over the years. Here is a long but very good article about the subject so close to our hearts:

Montanna Paradox: Now illegally posted speed limite!

The article is written in a somewhat technical format so it starts out dry. However, once the guy actually starts the discussion and quits with all the intro stuff, the rest of the article is a good read. None of it is really news to me because I have looked into this in the past. However, I thought some of you might enjoy it.

The basic conclusion is that people tend to drive at safe speeds for given circumstances and that artificially low posted speeds are not always based on legitimate safety concerns. Some of it may come across as conspiracy theory stuff, but I personally don't think the author is that far off the mark. From my understanding of politics and special interest groups, the conspiracy seems perfectly reasonable.

In essence, the conclusion is that posted limits as currently enforced are nothing more than illegal revenue generating efforts. This conclusion is reached because all the independent research shows that setting artificially low speed limits actually increases accident rates rather than lowering them. The limits are illegal because they are not set in accordance with the long established federal guidlelines which require engineering studies of the roads in question. Interestingly, he argues you could use this as a defense to any speeding ticket in Montanna (perhaps other states as well).

Let the opinions flow...

Adios,

 

[10-95]

What this guy is arguing is speed limits on the interstates, which is where Montana placed the "reasonable and prudent" speed limits. Contrary to what a lot of people thought, you couldn't just drive as fast as you wanted to. Enforcement was very subjective. As time went on and every nutcase in the US showed up to blast down their highways the people of Montana asked for the speed limits to return. I bet there was a fair amount of pressure from the Fed Govt too and the promise of witholding some federal road money that caused the speed limit to reappear.

Personally I think he's full of crap. I don't see a correlation between slowing folks down and increased accident rates. Just doesn't compute in my book.

Of course if it's on the internet it has to be true.....

 

[Shortline]

I'm all for speed limits, and, especially here in TX, they seem to be pretty reasonable. Though, I can't think of any other state that lets ya blast around at 70 on a secondary road.....GOD BLESS TX!
TR
Brady TX
(A happy transplant, still need a cowboy hat)

 

[Tourmeister]

When I drive on I-45, if there is someone going slow, it backs traffic up pretty bad, causes people to start doing stupid crap in a useless effort to "get ahead" of everyone else and to get around the slow person. Slow would be anything less than about 80-85mph. When I do see any kind of LEO on the road side, people freak and start spazzing out. If the traffic is left alone to go with the flow, everything seems the calmest.

Now if we start talking about roads other than the interstates, I think no speed limits might be asking for trouble. However, I think the general idea that most people will tend to drive in a safe and prudent manner is sound. When driving on the freeways, the vast majority of people drive safely. It is those few nutcases that scare the crap out of everyone.

I would imagine that at first, if there were suddenly no limits, it might be ugly for a short while and then most folks would calm down and drive quite sensibly. Those that would drive 100+ do so already!

I do believe that most of the LEO on the streets are concerned about the safety of the roadway users. However, I do not believe the upper level beaureaucrats are so concerned. I grew up around some of those little towns mentioned in the article that have zilch population but have the nice courthouse, lots of new fancy patrol cars and really work the ticket system for everything it is worth. I seriously doubt if safety ever even crossed their minds?

I know you are an LEO and I don't intend these comments as a personal slight against all LEO's. That's like saying all Lawyers are scumbags A few of us are decent

Adios,

 

[buck000]

When I drive on I-45, if there is someone going slow, it backs traffic up pretty bad, causes people to start doing stupid crap in a useless effort to "get ahead" of everyone else and to get around the slow person.

So, imho, it seems that the cause of the craziness is not really the person driving 'slowly', but rather the 'stupid crappers'...?

At the risk of overgeneralizing, I don't believe that American drivers are qualified to run high speeds. Imho, in Germany, the reason the Autobahn is possible is because the Germans pay a lot to get well-trained on driving, and if my brother-in-law is any indication, they are completely focused on driving when they're behind the wheel.

Dunno if the same training exists in Italy with the Autostrada; maybe it's just that Italians love driving so much they care about it more.

Do you REALLY want some ExpeEscaNaviHumGator, driven by a cell-phone-wielding, Big Mac munching person, doing 120 in any kind of traffic?

Having said that, I'm sure I'll be for no speed limits if I ever drive on an Interstate in west Texas...

 

[Tourmeister]

It is interesting how often the idea is pitched, "if there were no speed limits, everyone would be doing 120mph!" It is similar to the anti gun crowd, "If guns are legal, it will be like the fictional wild wild west with everyone shooting up bars!" I seriously doubt that everyone would be driving at the highest possible speed their vehicle can maintain?!

Of course, I guess the point is moot. When a system is so heavily entrenched, the process of uprooting it and putting a new system in its place is usually so traumatic that people will endure mightily under the current system before finally aquiescing to a new one. Our current tax system is a good example. No one likes it, but few can imagine what it would take to do away with it. They immediately think of the worst case scenarios about what it might be like if we did do something, and then use those imagined scenarios as justification for clinging to the current system.

For years I have heard the rumors that European drivers are far and away superior to American drivers. I've never been there so I'll just have to believe those that have. However, I have seen the crazy videos on TV of Europeans doing stuff on their roads that are just as stupid and dangerous as people do here. They have their share of idiots as well. I think the real deifference is that over there, there are more severe consequences to bad driving than there are over here. Thus people over here don't necessarily lack this mythical skill I hear about all the time, they simply lack motivation for excercising it!

It seems that our system of rules/regs for the road does not encourage/punish very well. If speeding tickets were not about raising money and were truly about safety, it would be a simple thing to enforce. The princicple that driving is a privilege has been well established in our country and that people don't have a RIGHT to drive. Therefore, that privilege can be curtailed as necessary to obtain compliance.

If we were truly serious about safety, all cars would have mandatory speed limiting governors, speeding violations would be much more serious than just paying a small fine or doing a day in traffic school. There would be much more serious consequences for such "unsafe" behavior!! It really is that simple. But that would be horribly inconvenient for everyone. Our drivers want to speed, don't mind paying the fines, and the LEO system doesn't mind spending the time and effort to do anything other than random ticketing.

Let's remember, the article was not calling for abolishment of all speed limits!! He was arguing that if there are to be speed limits, there is a federally approved guideline already in place for establishing those limits, basically the 85th percentile rule. So I am not saying I-45 should be a race track. What I am saying is that if the 85th percentile speed is 85 mph, then the speed limit should be 85mph, NOT UNLIMITED!

The real danger in traffic comes from speed differentials when everyone is going the same directions. This is why choke points like on/off ramps, merges, LEO on the roadside, etc,... are common accident points. I don't need a guvment funded study to figure this out, I can go out and see it for myself on the highways every single day! It is bleeding obvious! Well, to me anyway Elimination of the choke points with an eye to keeping things flowing smoothly is the key. Some dipwad trying to do 120mph will creat a choke point and that person SHOULD be ticketed, at a minimum.

Even during very heavy traffic on I-45, as long as the flow is going about 75-85mph, everything usually goes very smooth. There is a minimum of people jetting in and out of traffic. This is true all the day to DFW when I have been on the road (often), even during peak times like Thanksgiving and Christmas. But when you hit Ferris on the South side of DFW, all **** breaks loose because they are known for ticketing with a vengance! People start trying to obey the lower than normal freeway speed limit, others try to ignore it, traffic gets snarled and tempers get short, people start doing stupid crap!

So I am not real sure just what it is about the guy's arguments that is seen a total crap? Slowing down flowing traffic seems to make things worse in my personal experience. Remember, we are not talking about some empty road out in the middle nowhere. We are talking about the flow of traffic with lots of folks on the road. Out in the middle of nowhere, it seems the speed limit should be a bit of a moot point if you are the only one on the road.

Now while I am all riled up, I wanna go buy some assault rifles and do something about our ridiculous tax system :angryfir:

Adios,

 

[kurt]

Our problem is lack of driving disciple and etiquette. In Germany, they will nail you to the wall for for three things:

Passing on the right

Safe following distance

Hostile move or gesture

Everyone drives in the right lane and faster traffic moves to left for as long as it takes to make the pass. They don't have speed traps, they ticket you after photographing you from an overpass for tailgating or an improper lane change. DO NOT let anyone know they are #1, of raise your fist in anger, this is a major fine.

Personally, I think if we passed a law stating that revenue generated from traffic violations went to roadway improvement and driver safety awareness, speeds would become much less of an issue within the communities. Seldom has speed been listed as the primary cause of an accident of any fatality I have ever worked. Alcohol, inattention, and poor driving abilities account for most.

 

[Tourmeister]

I think you see it clearly Texmedic. Just as I was saying, consequences breed better behavior. Anyone that has raised kids should understand this principle! When kids realize there are no consequences or that the consequences are trivial, they usually will run amok! Adults aren't much better. More serious consequences would make people take driving more serious. That's my theory and I'm sticking to it

And just for grins, here it is again... "consequences" Just wanted to see how many times I could toss that word in there!

Adios,

 

[Shortline]

Now while I am all riled up, I wanna go buy some assault rifles and do something about our ridiculous tax system :angryfir:

Adios,

You know, of course, I now have to report you to my nearest homeland security Dienst....er facilitator.
TR
Brady TX

 

[brd]

At the risk of overgeneralizing, I don't believe that American drivers are qualified to run high speeds. Imho, in Germany, the reason the Autobahn is possible is because the Germans pay a lot to get well-trained on driving, and if my brother-in-law is any indication, they are completely focused on driving when they're behind the wheel.

My 89 VW does not have cupholders in it. When I have passengers that ask me why not, I try to explain, "They're Germans. They think you should be paying attention to the road, not drinking." Nobody seems to get it, especially when driving now seems to be the secondary thing most Americans are doing while in their cars.

(I'm sure VW has since caved in and put cupholders in all their vehicles to appeal to US demands.)

I also remember seeing an on-board video of a testride on a CBR1100XX on the autobahn. I was almost as giddy about the people voluntarily yielding the left lane to him as I was about seeing 300kph on the speedo. Of course, behind him was probably some Porsche 911 Turbo flashing his brights.

 

[buck000]

I also remember seeing an on-board video of a testride on a CBR1100XX on the autobahn. I was almost as giddy about the people voluntarily yielding the left lane to him as I was about seeing 300kph on the speedo. Of course, behind him was probably some Porsche 911 Turbo flashing his brights.

The other notable thing about that video, iirc, is that when a car didn't move over quick enough, the rider just stayed in his lane, and slowed down (which might've been his only option, actually; never mind). It was impressive seeing how fast the 'bird came down from 300 km/h...

Anyway, I agree with Tourm. that we should just follow the 85% rule. I would still submit that there will still be the same number of folks who just wrongly feel they can exceed even an 85 mph limit, and the roads would continue to be just as unsafe. We'd need stiff penalties to modify those behaviors. Personally, I'd love to be able to cruise the RST at 80-85; that seems to be a real comfort zone for the engine... or so I've heard.

 

[Jack Giesecke]

Move to Aridzona?

http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/0316limits16.html

 

[Tourmeister]

Hehe, I love that the only two people they got opinions from were 65 and 81 years old!! What the heck did they expect them to say?

Then there was the typical scare tactic from the DPS and Higway safety people:

"It would make the accidents that we investigate much more serious. It would make the injuries greater, and it would probably increase our fatalities," said Steve Volden, spokesman for the Arizona Department of Public Safety.

"People will be pushing 100 miles an hour. . . . They will be driving legally at racing speeds," Volden said. "If this thing goes through, DPS will take a more aggressive stance on citations and violations."

I love the unspoken assumption here. Basically, they think that because everyone does 20mph over the limit now, no matter what the new limit is, they will still do twenty over. What a crock! Raise it, and see if everyone stays around the 80-85mph range like they are already driving!? Then nab the folks that don't seem to think that is fast enough. At least they are stepping in the right direction with the attitude of getting tougher on infractions!

The DPS spokesman is simply speculating. So let me speculate, we have safer better handling cars with more safety features, so they should be better able to handle the higher speeds. What's that you say? I've no basis for such speculation? What difference does that make? Since when does someone actually need to have any factual basis to make a speculative claim like that of the DPS person? His claim seems to make more common sense? One thing I have learned the hard way in life is that often, things that seem they should be one way actually work much better in the nonsensical way. So why not give it a try and see what happens? If people do get more seriously injured, isn't there an assumption of the risk somewhere in the equation? No one is forcing them to drive the MAXIMUM limit. :scratch

I guess this whole issue rubs me the wrong way because I grow weary of seeing so much of the guvment regulation in our country being based more on politics than on a rational basis. I think it does a great harm to our country in the long run. When the laws are irrational and driven by special interest groups, then I think the population as a whole loses respect for the law. When everyone starts to lose respect for the law, you will generally see widespread apathy and disregard of the law. Much like the case with current speed limit laws. When this happens, more and more people will bemoan how lawless we seem to be becoming and demand more enforcement. Don't you see where this leads? Read some history. This is not a new thing and it really does happen. Our country is not somehow immune to such nonsense and seems to me to be rapidly heading down this path.

Now excuse me please as I have some books to go burn...

[rant off]

Adios,

 

[buck000]

we have safer better handling cars with more safety features, so they should be better able to handle the higher speeds.

I just can't shake the image of some soccer mom or nascar dad (or 1000 of 'em) in a HummNaviExpeRover barrelling down the interstate at a buck ten...

I just realized that those big heavy trucks actually do have crumple zones; they're called the cars they hit...

We'd need to make speeding a capital offense for some of those bozos...

 

[Tourmeister]

in a HummNaviExpeRover barrelling down the interstate at a buck ten...

You are doing the same thing as the DPS people in the article Why are you automatically assuming everyone will be going 110mph? If the 85th percentile runs 80-85, then 110 would be a very serious speeding charge! If the fines were more appropriate, then I doubt many of those soccer parents would be doing 110.

Let's say we get rid of defensive driving (money making scam that it is) and make people pay the tickets and have the tickets go on their record! Then they'd have to contend not only with the fines but the possibility of increased insurance premiums. I think that would motivate a lot more people to drive the speed limit, especially if the limits were more reasonable.

Adios,

 

[sprack]

Funny, I tailed a soccer mom in a Z71 Suburban down from DFW to Austin at a buck ten just last weekend.

I just can't shake the image of some soccer mom or nascar dad (or 1000 of 'em) in a HummNaviExpeRover barrelling down the interstate at a buck ten...

 

[Jack Giesecke]

How 'bout the dumb canuck who thinks they're flashing their lights at him to make him speed up? Move to the right lane, bozo!

 

[10-95]

I like the idea of ticketing the unsafe drivers, making them pay and the offense going on their DL, but what court are y'all talking about?

I went to court just this morning. Wrote this girl 3 different charges, No Drivers License, No insurance and Speeding in a School Zone. She applied for--and got--a license 9 days after I tagged her, so the judge and prosecutor agreed to fine her $10 for administrative costs(which should only happen if you fail to present your DL at the time or your DL was simply expired and you renewed within 10 days). She got DEFERRED on the insurance charge(judge and pros didn't want it to go one her DL, cause after the 3rd DPS suspends your license) and pled guilty to the speeding. Her fine for it should be somewhere around $150.

Tell me. Justice??? Maybe this is why our road/driver system is so screwed up.


Back to the article... the guy was referring to interstate highways as far as I could tell. Who gives a crap if you go a little fast on a controlled access interstate highway? In MONTANA? That's like running on an interstate in far west Texas. Just as long as you keep it reasonable you should be OK.

Claiming that slower speeds contributed to accidents is WAY out there.

 

[buck000]

Let's say we get rid of defensive driving (money making scam that it is) and make people pay the tickets and have the tickets go on their record! Then they'd have to contend not only with the fines but the possibility of increased insurance premiums.

I'm with ya, Tourmeister!

I figure there'll be some sort of transition period, where folks'll push the new envelope, and either wreck their vehicle or get caught.

I guess I'm just getting cynical in my old age. Or it's just that I'm not riding enough these days...

Hey, I just thought of something: what if 85% of drivers like to go about 10 over, regardless of speed.

 

[Tourmeister]

Howdy,

Tell me. Justice??? Maybe this is why our road/driver system is so screwed up.

Yeah, I agree with you here. This experience probably taught her to think she can do whatever she pleases because there really aren't any negative consequences of any matter. A shame.

Claiming that slower speeds contributed to accidents is WAY out there.

I agree here too. Slow speed alone doesn't cause more accidents. I'm not sure that is what he meant. I was thinking he meant that in congested areas, setting the posted limit below the natural flow speed results in more accidents. And while I have no factual data to base my opinion on, in that light it seems to make sense to me. But if we are just talking about a deserted road, then no, I cannot see how lower limits would make any difference in the accident rate, unless sheer boredom causes drivers to phase out easier

I don't really think his argument applies very well to urban/residential streets at all. It seems there that even though someone might think they are running at a safe and comfortable speed, there are just so many possibilities for crazy stuff to happen that requires really fast reactions, that slower speed limits are warranted.

Hey, I just thought of something: what if 85% of drivers like to go about 10 over, regardless of speed.

Hehe. I think he covered that in the article but I don't recall what his response is. But hey, when riding in traffic, I like to run about +5mph over the flow because it is easier to keep track of everyone. I guess that makes me a lunatic driver!!

Adios,

 

[Jack Giesecke]

Claiming that slower speeds contributed to accidents is WAY out there.

I can sorta see it on long, straight, open interstates. I mean, back in '73 I had a summer job in Pearsall, drove down I10 out of SA nearly every weekend to get home. One day I'm approaching Seguin in my Chevelle, seemed like about 5 minutes and I see the sign for my turn off to Needville! "WOW, what happened?" was my thought, then I started thinking if I could harness that I could melt the miles away on the interstate, then I realized that I had not been totally attentive on what was going on. I know now it was "hiway hypnosis", but at the time I"d never heard of such. It scared the heck out of me when I realized I'd been out of it so much. Wasn't like I was asleep or something, but that sign just woke me up out of the daze. VERY weird feeling. Now, had I been tucked in on a ZX10 at a buck fifty, I don't think that would have happened, LOL! At the least, I'd only taken less than an hour to get to that exit where at 55 (then speed limit on I10) it took forever.

Man, out in Montana is likely worse than west Texas! Never been there, but I've ridden to El Paso more'n once. Not even a decent radio station on the Gold Wing to listen to, LOL! That didn't help anyway, though, in the car cause I always had the radio on, or 8 track (1973, remember?).

 

[Jack Giesecke]

And, have you ever noticed on interstates, no matter where it is in the west, the vast majority drive right around 80 mph? Now, sure, you have a car or truck or three flying bike a triple digits now and then, but the majority is at about 80. I think it's because most of your little four banger cars and big small block or V6 trucks are most comfortable at that speed. Any more and they're straining, so that's the speed they get cruised at. I don't think uping the limit to 80 is going to mean everyone is going to drive 90. I'd bet the larger percentage will stay at 80 and those that drive 90 or more now won't change their habits. Of course, I have nothing but conjecture to base this on, but it is an observation I've made many times.

 

[John Bennett]

Re: A long but interesting read about speed limits and safet

When a system is so heavily entrenched, the process of uprooting it and putting a new system in its place is usually so traumatic that people will endure mightily under the current system before finally aquiescing to a new one. ...If we were truly serious about safety, all cars would have mandatory speed limiting governors, speeding violations would be much more serious than just paying a small fine ... I grow weary of seeing so much of the guvment regulation in our country being based more on politics than on a rational basis. ...the population as a whole loses respect for the law.

Dang Scott!

I didn't realize you were such an anti-government militia-type radical!

(Just like me!!! )

Isn't it sad when common-sense laws and fairness in government seem like radical concepts, and when advocating them gets one labled an "extremist", possibly resulting in an informal friendly house visit from the local FBI office?

 

[Tourmeister]

I let my mask slip askew for a moment...

I was wondering when you would chime in on this thread

Adios,

 

[Anonymous]

I think speed limits are a great idea... for everyone else on the road, but not me.