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Arrested for Wearing a Helmet in Walmart

Yeah, I hope the Waltons pay handsomely on this one.
At least 250 large net plus legal costs.

I never have and never will stop for a WM employee to check my receipt. The few times I've been asked if they can see the receipt I say "yeah, it's in the bag" and keep rolling. I'd sooner return every item then turn around and buy them again.
 
Several years ago, I entered a Stripes c store to make a quick purchase. helmet on, visor up. Was greeted by clerk and I returned the greeting. The clerk then told me I had to remove my helmet. He said it was “corporate policy”. I left without purchasing anything.

Made me mad! Like Tim mentions, it’s actually quite the little procedure; removing and then replacing, in my case, sunglasses, ear plugs, buff and the helmet.

It occurs to me, that our rider in the video may have left his visor down to help muffle the sound of his music. (Though I would be uncomfortable a) with visor down and b) not able to hear.)

JesseH and TexasT, thanks for your insights.
I would have left too, if I'm just running in to say for gas or water, I leave it on. Glad you left.
 
At least 250 large net plus legal costs.

I never have and never will stop for a WM employee to check my receipt. The few times I've been asked if they can see the receipt I say "yeah, it's in the bag" and keep rolling. I'd sooner return every item then turn around and buy them again.
It is a total last resort for me to go to Walmart, maybe once or twice a year. And in a small town that's difficult but I try my best not to go.
 
I never have and never will stop for a WM employee to check my receipt. The few times I've been asked if they can see the receipt I say "yeah, it's in the bag" and keep rolling.
And that is perfectly fine. No one will ever physically stop you from leaving without showing a receipt. They will just record it on their log and then someone else will pull up the video and backtrack your path to ensure you paid for everything. But again, this process is more to ensure the cashiers are doing their jobs properly than it is to build a case against you. But if you did in fact steal the items a case will be started in the system on you.

Although you didn't ask, here's some more internal information about how things work at WM...

The company now has AI systems in place at the registers (cashier and self checkout) to ensure that everything that should be scanned was scanned, and that the item that was rung up was actually the item being purchased (produce sticker from a grapefruit being placed on a DVD and then being scanned). It's not a perfect system but it works pretty darn good overall.

Even if you are being stopped for shoplifting the associates will not (should not) go "hands-on" with you other than light physical direction on the arm, shoulder, back with an open hand.

In my time with the company we went from wearing body armor and being certified in handcuff application, to no longer chasing into the parking lot, to no longer following them into the parking lot, to no longer crossing the sidewalk in front of the store; and we went from full on grappling / fighting to light physical restraint to no restraint. This is all because of lawsuits over the years resulting from injuries / deaths on the part of the subjects as well as the associates. There have been numerous associates killed over the years by being over zealous and wanting to protect the company's inventory. Just like with police officers, I would teach my teams that their NUMBER ONE PRIORITY was to go home safely to their family at the end of their shift. Everything else was secondary to that, and I fired a number of people over the years because they let their ego get in the way of making a good decision. I'd rather have them out of job than for me to have to make "that" phone call to their family.

The bad guys know WM policies and when they want to walk out with their stolen items they just do it because they know the associate isn't allowed to touch them. All the associate can do at that point is call 911 and give a physical description and direction of travel. They can't even go into the parking lot to see the type of vehicle or get a license plate.

And now for the biggie... shoplifting and Organized Retail Theft (ORC) is a multi-BILLION dollar problem for the industry, so when you see prices continually rising on certain products (cosmetics for example), theft is the primary reason. Inventory loss in retail is known as "shrink" or "shrinkage". It's the difference between what the company originally paid for an item and how much money they expected to get when the item was rung up. You paid for a $10 item and it never made it through the register... $10 in shrink (this is a very simplified explanation).

But, BUT, BUT!... external theft is not as big an issue as internal theft and paper losses. I would tell my stores that if they could control their internal and paperwork losses (errors in markdowns / markups, not ringing up everything in the basket, not documenting items thrown away, etc) then I would be more than happy to carry a shoplifter's items to the car for them, because "shoplifting" is a very small percentage of a (typical big box) store's losses. The kid that comes in to steal the latest video game is nothing. The ORC team that comes in to steal all of the store's Ipads is a different story, and the associates that are stealing cash / product are a huge issue as well. I would average about 100 internal cases a year in my 6-8 stores; ranging from the petty candy bar / soda to $184,000 in cash theft from the safe by a manager.

So now you know a little more about the inner workings of the company from a loss prevention standpoint.
 
It is a total last resort for me to go to Walmart, maybe once or twice a year. And in a small town that's difficult but I try my best not to go.
You're missing out. Order and pay online for store pickup, enter store and walk 30 ft to kiosk/elevator, scan barcode from your cell phone, elevator drops and opens, grab items and 30 ft back out of store. No lines, no waiting, no checkout, no contact.

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I do that at Kroger and they bring to car. Lol.
 
I do that at Kroger and they bring to car. Lol.
So does Walmart, notice I stated no lines and no waiting. Kroger doesn't sell auto supplies, electronics and blue jeans either. Lol

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I don't blame the WM manager for being uneasy about this rider coming in the way he did. With all that armor, dark visor helmet, backpack, there's definitely reason for concern.

The rider would have been wise to uncover his face, probably remove helmet, turn off headphones. He was in a bubble. Not illegal, but socially ignorant. I sometimes wear a helmet into a convenience store (open modular face) but I feel uncomfortable even that way.

Where it really went sideways IMO was how the police officers continued to treat him as a major threat, hands on their weapons, getting increasingly aggressive, even when he clearly was not combative nor threatening.

I am curious if any LEOs here have thoughts they're willing to share. Maybe there are things that occurred here that I didn't catch, that might be legitimate reasons for the officers in this case to escalate once they engaged.



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You asked for opinions from any LEO's, so I'll respond as a retired one...30+ years in a decently sized TX city.

A major flaw in the action of the police is this...did not check video. As a cop you're in a facility (Walmart) that you know from many, many past experiences will have good video to review before making an arrest like this one. This offense hinges on he-said/he-said chain of events. While the complainant is allegedly the manager of the store that you might tend to trust, you're preparing to arrest a person based on arguable information that can easily be checked on video. Check the video. How clear are the manager's assertions about his actions/warnings vs. the defendant's reaction, compliance, or demeanor? I would have viewed the manager's interaction toward the defendant as somewhat weak...and probably because he was somewhat leery of the guy...maybe for good reason. The manager made no obvious hand gesture like holding up his hand or finger to unmistakenly get the defendant's attention. There was no clear indication the defendant ever really acknowledged the manager.

Another problem I have with this situation is the manager's reasoning. While I can fully understand some apprehension due to recent violent events...El Paso Walmart...fear does not dictate execution of law or reasonable behavior. I'll bet this store and Walmart in general has/had no prohibition about certain types of head gear and such...probably only 30.06/30.07 signs...or whatever AZ would have if they do. Someone mentioned hoodies, and there are other examples of head/face gear that could actually have history in criminal behavior...robbers using presidential face masks per Hollywood movies and such. If a store like a Walmart has such general or specific regulations, they need to be supported by signage, or clear, direct, communication by a manager or person with some actual authority. Someone mentioned "their business, their rules"...that's true in a general sense, but the manager of a Walmart doesn't get to design the rules on his own like a mom and pop bodega. Walmart is indeed a private business, but oddly there is a legitimate expectation of some kind of consistent treatment in the customer experience...it's one of the things Walmart promotes. And there was never a clear, direct contact by the manager to this defendant. I think the manager was scared...and that's somewhat natural in this case. But again...police should have checked the video.

I don't think the police looked at the big picture here. What was really being accomplished here? Who was in danger? What behavior did the defendant commit that was a criminal violation of real magnitude to require his arrest? I was a superivsor for most of my career. Frankly if I had pulled up on this incident and got the lay of the land from my officers and the manager, I don't think I would have even looked at the video because the circumstances didn't really warrant police action. They had the guy's ID...he's not wanted...he's not threatening...etc. There are usually a lot more pressing issues out there to tie up 3 or 4 officers on. The absolute pinnacle of any action might have been to put the guy on a trespass list for this store, and I would have tried to talk the manager out of that...and being a Walmart and not a small personally owned store, I probably wouldn't have gone that far. Maybe..."have you're regional manager call me about this incident, and we'll talk about it." This was pretty much a non-event.

Now...as far as the defendant and his actions...it's possible that he may have actually heard the manager's communication but decided to blow it off. The defendant didn't blow up, get mad, challenge the manager, and we don't deprive people of their liberty and throw them in the clink just because of possibilities or less than perfect behavior...or at least we shouldn't. I take my helmet off inside most any building, business, etc., but that's my call. I want to hear and see my surroundings in full stereo...LOL!

As far as the police action and behavior...I thought everything was decent until the one officer went off. I've gone off on defendants before, but it was always in response to outrageous behavior on their part that caused me to escalate to that point in an attempt to get their attention before things got worse. And even then, you have to size up the people you're going to "go off" on, because some respond to calm when they start to go sideways while others need aggressive communication...know your audience. In this Walmart case, the defendant remained calm the whole time. Cops are the ones who are supposed to ease tension when possible, not induce it. The defendant never took the bait, and I think the one officer was somewhat disappointed.

OK...why did I spend so much time on this issue and discussion? For one, someone asked. Secondly I'm really bothered by what's going on in our nation as it relates to police, government, and citizens. For the most part I have full faith in "most" of the behavior and performance of our municipal police departments...federal agencies, not so much anymore. There are definitely mistakes and sometimes even downright criminal behavior, but this profession is a mistake prone venue even aside from the best intentions. In the case of this AZ Walmart incident, it must have been a slow day for the police department, because I don't think anything here warranted much of anyone getting their shorts in a wad.
 
I'll bet this store and Walmart in general has/had no prohibition about certain types of head gear and such...probably only 30.06/30.07 signs...or whatever AZ would have if they do.
As a company, WM has always supported the right to carry and when a customer would approach a customer to complain about someone openly carrying within the store we were perfectly okay with telling that customer that the firearm customer is entirely within their right to do so and that they could leave the store if they felt uncomfortable.

That changed within the last 18 months and while the company still fully supports concealed carry they have begun to "ask" customers to not open carry within the store. If observed, a manager will approach the person and inform them of WM's guidelines and ask them to either conceal the weapon or take the weapon out of the store. Where it goes from there appears to be a discretionary thing for the manager (this was being implemented as I was preparing to retire so I didn't pay much attention to it) and if the customer reacts like a jackwad you can certainly expect to be told to leave the store. If you refuse, the cops will most likely be called and you will have to deal with them as well as getting trespassed from all stores because you are now a "disruption to the business".

If you just conceal it and keep it concealed while you're in the store or take it to your vehicle, life will be good for all concerned.


******

I want to make one thing perfectly clear. I speak for myself regarding all of my posts, and my comments are based upon my experiences within the company in stores in AZ, NM, and TX. I do not speak for the company, not do I guarantee that I what I post here hasn't changed since I left the company so do not take it as Gospel and get in some manager's face and say "Texas T said..." You're on your own in that circumstance.

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You're missing out. Order and pay online for store pickup, enter store and walk 30 ft to kiosk/elevator, scan barcode from your cell phone, elevator drops and opens, grab items and 30 ft back out of store. No lines, no waiting, no checkout, no contact.
About the only time I shop in a WM store is if I'm there to pick up an order out of the tower and then remember something else that I need to purchase.

I haven't been to the store to purchase groceries in probably six months; I have the $98 Walmart+ (similar to Amazon Prime) program and all my groceries are delivered to me free of charge as long as my delivery order is $35 or more - which is not hard to do these days. I do typically wind up tipping the driver $5 but compared to the hassle of driving to the store, parking, dealing with the stereotypical horde of WM customers, spending an hour walking through the store, etc, I find that $5 to be well worth it.

I know that there are a lot of folks that say "I'll never shop at WM" because of X, Y, Z...

I will say this; I spent 95% of my working life in retail before winding up at WM for the final 13.5 years of my career and my one big complaint about WM is that I'm sorry I didn't go to work for them a long time ago. I have friends with 30 and 35+ years with the company, and two folks just retired from the company with 50+ years of service. Working at WM paid my bills, allowed me to pay cash for my house with money left over for retirement, had great benefits, educational opportunities ($1/day for college), advancement opportunities, travel opportunities, etc. WM is what you make of it. They ask a lot of you and if you're a slacker you're not going to like it and you probably won't last long.
 
Texas T, my reference to 30.06 and 30.07 signs was really only a reference to an example of signage a store could use to cover things like helmets etc. I had no idea what AZ Walmarts would or wouldn't do so that's why I stated..."or whatever AZ would have if they do." I did kind of make it sound like they are a no firearms location, and I didn't mean to do that. If they were to try and come up with an effective prohibition about certain types and styles of head and face gear, it would be an interesting read. And could you imagine the curve ball that C19 would throw into the mix...LOL!
 
TNC, no problem. I just wanted to clarify that for the readers. WM gets enough bad press as it is I didn't want someone thinking that they were now banning firearms within the store. It's bad enough that they stopped carrying sporting rifles and the ammunition to supply them with; the ammo decision was one that I definitely disagreed with, but I took advantage of the reduced prices when it happened.
 
Brian, I have to ask, if there is signage clearly displayed on the outside doors of a WM, that does NOT exclude me from openly carrying while in the store, how can any store manager require me to conceal it? Isn't that the same as "making up the rules as you go along" even if they are not truly WM rules? Can you actually get away with it?

As for trespassing... how can you really get away with doing so to a customer when they were legally allowed to enter a place of business like any other customer?

Seems to me, the only "disruption to the business" is going to be created by the store manager or any other customers who are ignorant of handgun laws or out of their own fears. Just because a particular customer is afraid or more likely against firearms, is that a reason to violate someone's 2A right cause legal trouble for someone who did not violate store policy as displayed at the entrance? If I were acting suspiciously and just plain weird, then I'd understand, but not just shopping like a normal human being.

I openly carry quite often where I live and have yet to have a problem even imprinting. But I'd certainly take issue with a manager making his own rules and would definitely reach out to the district level or whatever the next level up is for what I would perceive is discrimination contrary to the signage on the door. If a certain location has a problem with open carry, I would fully EXPECT that the signage be removed and a new one added clearly stating no guns allowed.
 
Brian, I have to ask, if there is signage clearly displayed on the outside doors of a WM, that does NOT exclude me from openly carrying while in the store, how can any store manager require me to conceal it? Isn't that the same as "making up the rules as you go along" even if they are not truly WM rules? Can you actually get away with it?
I honestly don't know if any new signage has gone up since I left the company in Feb, but here's what the company put out last year... https://corporate.walmart.com/newsr...nse-to-the-tragedies-in-el-paso-and-southaven

As for trespassing... how can you really get away with doing so to a customer when they were legally allowed to enter a place of business like any other customer?
I don't know the specifics of the law, but a business is private place that allows people to come in, and as such the management of that place has the right to bar anyone for coming in for whatever reason... actually, they don't even need to give you a reason. Now, if they trespass someone because they don't like the color of their hair they are going to have a hard time justifying that to upper management when the customer disputes it. Aside from shoplifting / internal theft cases, trespass is not something that is utilized very often; perhaps half a dozen times a year in a typical store.

Seems to me, the only "disruption to the business" is going to be created by the store manager or any other customers who are ignorant of handgun laws or out of their own fears. Just because a particular customer is afraid or more likely against firearms, is that a reason to violate someone's 2A right cause legal trouble for someone who did not violate store policy as displayed at the entrance? If I were acting suspiciously and just plain weird, then I'd understand, but not just shopping like a normal human being.
In regards to your 2A right question I'd refer you to this response... https://time.com/5670809/walmart-kr...sor at,trespassing laws and other regulations.

I openly carry quite often where I live and have yet to have a problem even imprinting. But I'd certainly take issue with a manager making his own rules and would definitely reach out to the district level or whatever the next level up is for what I would perceive is discrimination contrary to the signage on the door. If a certain location has a problem with open carry, I would fully EXPECT that the signage be removed and a new one added clearly stating no guns allowed.
I think I addressed this with my first link.


Bottom line... a few bad apples ruin it for everyone else. The VAST majority of WM customers are non-gun toting women, and if that means barring Joe Bob Billy from being in the store because he refuses to conceal his weapon, then that loss of business outweighs the loss of all the soccer moms that are scared of Joe and that will shop elsewhere if the issue is not addressed.

For folks that want to shop in WM there are very few rules... don't steal, don't abuse the associates verbally or physically, wear a mask, conceal your firearm. If people choose not to adhere to those rules they are certainly welcome to shop elsewhere.
 
I honestly don't know if any new signage has gone up since I left the company in Feb, but here's what the company put out last year... https://corporate.walmart.com/newsr...nse-to-the-tragedies-in-el-paso-and-southaven


I don't know the specifics of the law, but a business is private place that allows people to come in, and as such the management of that place has the right to bar anyone for coming in for whatever reason... actually, they don't even need to give you a reason. Now, if they trespass someone because they don't like the color of their hair they are going to have a hard time justifying that to upper management when the customer disputes it. Aside from shoplifting / internal theft cases, trespass is not something that is utilized very often; perhaps half a dozen times a year in a typical store.


In regards to your 2A right question I'd refer you to this response... https://time.com/5670809/walmart-kroger-cvs-open-carry-gun-ban/#:~:text=Jeffrey Sonnenfeld, a professor at,trespassing laws and other regulations.


I think I addressed this with my first link.


Bottom line... a few bad apples ruin it for everyone else. The VAST majority of WM customers are non-gun toting women, and if that means barring Joe Bob Billy from being in the store because he refuses to conceal his weapon, then that loss of business outweighs the loss of all the soccer moms that are scared of Joe and that will shop elsewhere if the issue is not addressed.

For folks that want to shop in WM there are very few rules... don't steal, don't abuse the associates verbally or physically, wear a mask, conceal your firearm. If people choose not to adhere to those rules they are certainly welcome to shop elsewhere.
Thanks for your input. I'm not looking for ways to push the limits, just been unclear of a businesses rights regarding trespass and making decisions on the fly.

But I wonder, in light of the Time link you posted, if the private business "my house, my rules" borders on discrimination. Businesses open to the public legally can't refuse to do business with people based on color, religion, disability, etc. It makes you wonder if banning someone because of their belief and exercise of a constitutional right might also fall into discrimination laws. I'd never want to be a test case. But the ways laws seem to be intertwining and creating exceptions in the world of civil liberties these days, you'd have to wonder where a citizen's political beliefs stand in the eyes of the law. Perhaps that movement just hasn't happened yet.
 
Thanks for your input. I'm not looking for ways to push the limits, just been unclear of a businesses rights regarding trespass and making decisions on the fly.

But I wonder, in light of the Time link you posted, if the private business "my house, my rules" borders on discrimination. Businesses open to the public legally can't refuse to do business with people based on color, religion, disability, etc. It makes you wonder if banning someone because of their belief and exercise of a constitutional right might also fall into discrimination laws. I'd never want to be a test case. But the ways laws seem to be intertwining and creating exceptions in the world of civil liberties these days, you'd have to wonder where a citizen's political beliefs stand in the eyes of the law. Perhaps that movement just hasn't happened yet.
Sounds like you should lobby to have 'possession of firearm' to the list of protected classes.
 
if there is signage clearly displayed on the outside doors of a WM, that does NOT exclude me from openly carrying while in the store, how can any store manager require me to conceal it?
Texas law does not require posting signs. An oral communication (from a person of apparent authority) is enough to make the TCL holder have to vammoose. This is part of 30.06 and 30.07. Failure to vammoose is trespass. I think you already know this.
 
But I wonder, in light of the Time link you posted, if the private business "my house, my rules" borders on discrimination. Businesses open to the public legally can't refuse to do business with people based on color, religion, disability, etc. It makes you wonder if banning someone because of their belief and exercise of a constitutional right might also fall into discrimination laws.
I think I've been pretty clear about the situations in which a WM manager will trespass someone, but I can't speak for any other retailer out there.
 
You're missing out. Order and pay online for store pickup, enter store and walk 30 ft to kiosk/elevator, scan barcode from your cell phone, elevator drops and opens, grab items and 30 ft back out of store. No lines, no waiting, no checkout, no contact.

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Don’t have to go in the store. They’ll bring it to you in the parking lot.
 
We've always done that for groceries, but unless something has changed recently you still have to go into the store to pick up your hardlines items.
This is my case as I buy everything except groceries from WM. And I stated no lines and no waiting. Not the case for curbside pickup. I see the same cars idling and waiting on my way back to my car as I saw on the way in.

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