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Big Bend Nat'l Park bulldozed to erect border wall

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Little Stevie said:
For more than fifty years, the Big Bend has restored me spiritually and provided me with a fulfilling living. I have hiked, cycled, moto-ed, camped, paddled and just stared at the night sky. It has been solace, refuge, sanctuary, teacher, and friend. I have met folks from all over the country and the world out there. I am honored to have had the privilege of sharing my joy and awe, and seeing them open their hearts and minds to experiences that awed them, even healed them or transformed them. I've had conversations with every kind of folk out there, and learned and grown from them--even had a lovely chat with Ranger Butthead after he got through chewing me out for parking in the middle of the lot. Friends, colleagues, acquaintances and family live out there.

Very few of the folks out there want a wall, or even more surveillance. Yep, ground sensors have been out there for several decades, and they are quite effective. Very few favor an open border, some vehemently, yet opposition to the current proposal is widespread. County Judges and Commissioners and Sheriffs--most of them Republicans--of four border counties in the Bend are actively opposing construction of the wall and the man camps for the workers. A good many local retailers are refusing to do business with the contractors, choosing to forego the short-term windfall so they can live with themselves in the future.

Yep, some folks are gung-ho for the wall, but the only ones I know of are wealthy landowners, some new to the area, some a hundred miles from the river, none directly affected by immigration or a wall or our own access to the Rio. They could just as easily own thousands of acres near Huntsville to sell to Big Data. I know there are plenty of folks out there who want the wall. I know some who have had bad experiences with folks who entered illegally. I know some who rightfully fear a reoccurrence of los transmigrantes from Central America. I respect them and their viewpoints.

For more than fifty years, the Big Bend has been the most special place I've known. This is personal for me.
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You sound like me in light of all the stuff you've done out there since 1973...river running, backpacking, 4WD, dirt bike, etc. Personally I think there are places where a wall is logical and definitely places instead where technology can provide more than reasonable protection...proper tool for the proper place. How much do I love the Big Bend area? My deceased wife of 50 years, her ashes are out there at a special place...and so will mine be...if I can trust my relatives. :mrgreen:
 
They have those tethered blimps in several places in the BB area. Says they detect low flying aircraft and human movement.
Seems like a wall which I doubt they need would hinder wildlife movement , like Black Bear ect.
We have been stopped at border checks several times but never searched. I have been asked about fire arms in vehicle. 🤞 National parks have rules. I would never camp without one. I don't think I am the only one.
 
Windmill said:
They have those tethered blimps in several places in the BB area. Says they detect low flying aircraft and human movement.
Seems like a wall which I doubt they need would hinder wildlife movement , like Black Bear ect.
We have been stopped at border checks several times but never searched. I have been asked about fire arms in vehicle. 🤞 National parks have rules. I would never camp without one. I don't think I am the only one.
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No, you're not alone if you're talking about carrying firearms. At least in Texas you are allowed to carry a firearm in a national park if you're legally able to carry the firearm in the state. Within the park the only prohibition is inside a visitor center or other federal building in the park. There are other states that have the same options.

Firearms in National Parks (U.S. National Park Service)

Information about firearms in National Parks
www.nps.gov www.nps.gov

You mentioned border checks...like the one between Presidio and Marfa? If you can legally carry that firearm in Texas, BP has no authority to prohibit that.
 
They dont like surprises , I always tell them where it is and I am not going to reach in that direction and have been thanked more than once . That goes for any LEO
 
Tigerkf said:
This thread is full of misinformation and complete nonsense with a politically motivated slant. All the individuals and news sources spreading the myth that a wall is going up in Big Bend have a political agenda and are against those currently in power.
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Well, that's why I posted the link from the Border Patrol on the first page that shows the map and what kind of security features will be used...no bollard wall...technology and patrol only. Click on the map legend. I don't know what's going on with all the pics and videos of bulldozers. Either some additional road access is actually being cut for the patrol and technology features in the park, or those are pics and videos of actual wall building being done elsewhere with the claim that they're in the park.

It's hotter than Hades down there now, so we don't have the normal large numbers of TWT people going down there to ride or whatever. It would be nice to have reliable eyes on it to get a firsthand report. Normally I'd phone Uncle Roger and ask him what he knows, but I think he and Wanda are probably in east Texas at their other house. I do know the guy who owns the "Around the Bend RV Park" on the south end of Study Butte near the school. I'll call him tomorrow to see if he has any direct intel. I trust him. It seems pretty clear that no "wall" is going to be installed, and it's also very possible that any work that is going is being inflated. If you punch in "Bulldozers in Big Bend National Park" in Google, the AI response is that a patrol road is being put in near Santa Elena Canyon. I don't claim that as fact or false.

In that same Google search as you go down the page, the speculation and exaggeration is off the charts. This link from the Houston Chronicle may have more reality to it...or not...and I'm claiming no direct knowledge myself.

What is being built: According to U.S. Customs and Border Protection (CBP), contractors are constructing an extensive patrol road system, installing surveillance technology, and placing four-foot-tall metal vehicle barriers in strategic locations. Officials have denied plans to build a 30-foot-high concrete wall or use stadium lighting.
 
There have been…. hundreds of 18 wheelers transporting shiney new CAT equipment down 118 south for several weeks.
Latest is daylight until dark water tankers going back and forth filling those oil field frac tanks i saw going down few weeks ago.
I have not ridden south. Was planning on going to Stillwell, as the whole place supposedly sold to contractor for personel/equipment operations. I liked the store/museum.
Sad for whole community.

D.
 
Stillwell is by far the most likely point of entry for anybody wanting to make a crossing , there is a perfectly good bridge and road there .

Been a few years since Ive been down there but the fence wasnt much of a barrier then , dont know what it looks like now
 
Cagiva 549 said:
Stillwell is by far the most likely point of entry for anybody wanting to make a crossing , there is a perfectly good bridge and road there .

Been a few years since Ive been down there but the fence wasnt much of a barrier then , dont know what it looks like now
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I was there last fall. still not much of a fence, but there were cameras all over the place near the bridge. I am guessing there was also a bunch of other electronic surveillance that was hidden.
 
I'll risk sounding nostalgic to shine a little light. A friend of friend researched and visited 200+ "informal crossings sites" on the Rio to write a book about them. He got a publisher and editor and it was all set to go to the printer.. in December 2001. So years of work came to an unpublishable manuscript. I'd still like to get a copy. I bet DHS would like a copy, pretty sure Texas Rangers don't need a book.

I've been to a half dozen or more of these, and have heard many more first-hand accounts. Most of these crossings served the communities on both sides of the river. Several are in the Parks. Almost everyone who crossed was crossing and returning to the side they came from. They crossed for convenience, or for work, or to retrieve cattle, pick up mail, buy gas and groceries, eat a meal with family, spend a night with spouse or lover. The closing of the border in 2002 ended most of that. It likely did not end the smaller numbers of true immigrants and drug smugglers, but did shift that to coyotes and cartels, and shut off a lot of humint for Rangers, DPS, la Migra and el Chote. Those guys have told me before 2002, they would have been told about any terrorists trying to approach la Frontera long before it was a problem here.

I visited Stillwell Crossing in 2003. Temporary barriers blocked vehicles at the bridge, and a few rolls of tanglefoot completed the closure. A cold snap caught us out heading down, so we got some coffee at the cafe that was, surprisingly, operating at the time. A tourist couple and a few locals were eating lunch. Four shivering members of el Ejercito de Mexico in full uniform walked in, sat down and ordered lunch. It felt like they did this every day. No one blinked. No big deal.

There have been many changes in how we, the USA, deal with the border over the past dozen decades. For better and for worse, few have turned out as intended, most have cost the people of the Rio dearly.
 
I'd like to see everyone give up on building a wall.

It would be a whole lot easier, and cheaper, to send excavators to the border. Dig a really deep trench along the border. There will be an equally large hill. If needed, for erosion control, make a whole bunch of concrete slabs like they do for tilt-wall buildings and line the trench.
 
Little Stevie said:
I'll risk sounding nostalgic to shine a little light. A friend of friend researched and visited 200+ "informal crossings sites" on the Rio to write a book about them. He got a publisher and editor and it was all set to go to the printer.. in December 2001. So years of work came to an unpublishable manuscript. I'd still like to get a copy. I bet DHS would like a copy, pretty sure Texas Rangers don't need a book.

I've been to a half dozen or more of these, and have heard many more first-hand accounts. Most of these crossings served the communities on both sides of the river. Several are in the Parks. Almost everyone who crossed was crossing and returning to the side they came from. They crossed for convenience, or for work, or to retrieve cattle, pick up mail, buy gas and groceries, eat a meal with family, spend a night with spouse or lover. The closing of the border in 2002 ended most of that. It likely did not end the smaller numbers of true immigrants and drug smugglers, but did shift that to coyotes and cartels, and shut off a lot of humint for Rangers, DPS, la Migra and el Chote. Those guys have told me before 2002, they would have been told about any terrorists trying to approach la Frontera long before it was a problem here.

I visited Stillwell Crossing in 2003. Temporary barriers blocked vehicles at the bridge, and a few rolls of tanglefoot completed the closure. A cold snap caught us out heading down, so we got some coffee at the cafe that was, surprisingly, operating at the time. A tourist couple and a few locals were eating lunch. Four shivering members of el Ejercito de Mexico in full uniform walked in, sat down and ordered lunch. It felt like they did this every day. No one blinked. No big deal.

There have been many changes in how we, the USA, deal with the border over the past dozen decades. For better and for worse, few have turned out as intended, most have cost the people of the Rio dearly.
Click to expand...
That part of the border east of the NP is interesting. I've spent a fair amount of time on some different trips to the BB area where I went and camped and rode for a few days in the Black Gap Wildlife Management Area...103,000 acres with lots of miles of dirt roads and rough 2-tracks. Now that place is big time remote when there are no hunts occurring, and the river is right there on the edge of the BGWMA. When there's no hunt, the place is a ghost town except for the state caretaker/manager guy...used to be Travis and may still be.

I've never seen a border patrol presence there, but on one trip I rounded a corner close to the river amongst the salt cedars, and I could see a roof of a vehicle approaching. I knew it wasn't Travis, and I was many miles from the HQ on the far NE corner of the place. LOL!...I made my handgun readily accessible and kind of pulled into an open spot to the side. Low and behold it was a Brewster Co. sheriff deputy, and I was shocked to see one way out here. Having been a cop for over 30 years, I introduced myself, and we chatted for awhile. He asked if I'd seen any human activity, and I had not...lots of burro hoof prints but no footprints. I always look for that sort of thing...kinda fun. Anyway, he said they check the area periodically since Travis is out there by himself frequently, and they check for border crossing activity.

I like riding on that facility, and looking at the BP map I linked, it appears that the river there will get the same treatment as the national park...no bollard wall/fence.

IMG_20181211_114848292.jpg


IMG_20181211_122147302.jpg


IMG_20181212_122353411.jpg
 
Got hold of Uncle Roger today and another fellow with a business there. Their knowledge of what's to be done in the NP and even surrounding areas is that information that I linked from Border Patrol.

Smart Wall Map

U.S. Customs and Border Protection provides information on border security, trade, travel, customs regulations, trusted traveler programs and enforcement news to the public.
www.cbp.gov

No fence/wall, though some of the description of what "strategic locations" for the short vehicle barriers actually entail are not clear as far as I can see. To be honest, I don't think BP has done a very good job in trying to clarify details and perhaps dissuade some of the confusion about these border security measures. Yeah, they have the link I posted here and elsewhere, but how about some news interviews and YT segments with interviews and even some pictures of the proposed "vehicle barriers" and what the description of the strategic locations involves. That won't be some kind of top secret info, and I can see them commenting on sophisticated electronic and otherwise non-invasive security measures without giving specific details obviously. I've searched around for something like this and haven't found any. On the other hand they may indeed have put out more public information in the form of interviews, pics, videos, and details, and it just hasn't been pushed out into the public due to the opposing viewpoints that do seem to get nonstop coverage. I don't know that for a fact.
 
TNC said:
Got hold of Uncle Roger today and another fellow with a business there. Their knowledge of what's to be done in the NP and even surrounding areas is that information that I linked from Border Patrol.

Smart Wall Map

U.S. Customs and Border Protection provides information on border security, trade, travel, customs regulations, trusted traveler programs and enforcement news to the public.
www.cbp.gov
...
Click to expand...

That map has changed several times over the past few months, without notice, often without a legend. It is not a reliable document. What it said, and says, has contradicted the rare statements by CBP. Only in the last month (I think) has CBP met with local officials or issued public statements. Even landowners on the Rio most often learn of plans only when a crew shows up and starts clearing and surveying.

BTW, even Fox News has run segments on the wall in the Big Bend. No AI needed for this; abundant photos and notes from people I know. I sat in a cafe on hwy 29 in Llano having migas and coffee watching truck after truck roll by, stacked with the big bollard panels, heading west from the fab plant in Burnet.

I have been truthful in all my posts and, without being a jerk, have quietly but plainly made it clear that I think the wall in the Big Bend is worse than a bad idea, it is a stupendously costly, astonishingly cruel and magnificently destructive project. It is reasonable to talk about it here because I know many of us love the place, treasure it for its majesty, beauty, solitude and quiet; and because several folks here have conducted rallies out there and have an interest in the Bend's conservation. And I do not find roads, lights, towers, cameras and other surveillance appropriate or necessary.

I also want to make it clear that when I say "Big Bend" I mean the entire Big Bend region, considered broadly. So, from say, Quitman Pass through the Lower Canyons. After all, the Rio is the longest protected stretch of Wild and Scenic River in the USA.
 
OK...I got down to really digging into this issue, and I think I found a good bit of info that will be of interest to most of us who frequent and love the Big Bend area...and this will not be political but as factual as possible. I'm not going to reveal identities or opinions from the sources as clearly no one needs any unnecessary drama. A good bit of this info can be dug out of the internet also.

All parties have pretty much confirmed there is no wall being constructed in the zones as shown on that Border Patrol map I linked. In fact Barnard Construction is the main dirt clearing and patrol road building company doing all the preparatory work to access any low barriers and surveillance technologies. They will tell you there is no regular wall whatsoever in the area. In fact here's a synopsis of who's who in the projected construction.

  • Southwest Valley Constructors: Building 17 miles of low-profile vehicle barriers, patrol roads, and over 200 miles of sensor and camera tech networks.
  • Barnard Construction: Involved in regional terrain clearing and infrastructure work associated with the border initiatives nearby.
  • Project Scope: Focused on smart-wall technology, roads, and vehicle rails rather than a 30-foot steel wall.
Now, here's another interesting fact. Some of these companies have and/or are trying to rent, buy, or lease businesses for accommodating at least 500 workers in the area for this construction. Since there is not enough infrastructure to handle that, an area about 2 hours north has been purchased to have facilities and RV spots to accommodate these workers as one solution. Even the old Stillwell RV Ranch down FM2627 by the BGWMA has allegedly been sold to a company for this purpose. There has allegedly been some push back from rental accommodations, RV parks, etc. in the Terlingua/Study Butte area not to let their facilities be rented out as this would possibly damage current and future tourist clientele business that they already enjoy. The time frame for this project is estimated to be about 24 months.

Going back to the physical security measures that will be installed, remember that the national park took in over 6000 acres recently to the western border of the park toward Terlingua Creek. Obviously there are no roads in that area as it is quite remote. This acreage is probably the area north of the Terlingua Abajo camp and west of the Rattlesnake Mountain camp. Notice that the 17 miles mentioned by Southwest Valley Constructors doesn't indicate a lot of distance in the plan. As most of us know, a lot of the river is already right at or within proximity of the existing River Road, so it's not like it's going to require heavy construction of nearly 70 miles from Santa Elena to Rio Grande Village. If that 17 miles is a true yardstick, we may not be talking about huge swaths of heavy construction. I imagine some extra "work" will be required to access the places where sophisticated electronics and other security devices will be placed where there are no existing roads at present...but...I don't know the nature and requirements of these devices by any means. Though some sensors and such have been out there for years, I'm betting the stuff going in now will be more advanced.

Also if you notice, the NP actually runs all the way to Lajitas along the river. That area has little to no access to the river, and I wouldn't be surprised if a good deal of the road building is or will be in this area as there is no other way to get to the river. Quite a few news reports, Facebook entries, and blogs are claiming that these current bulldozers are indiscriminately clearing out land right at the scenic Santa Elena canyon location. Hey...I'm not there...and probably most of the people claiming such are not there either. Regardless, I guess that remains to be seen. That's a pretty severe canyon all around Santa Elena and on to the west toward Lajitas. I can see a patrol road being built along that path possibly, and frankly that could be pretty neat if it is allowed to be traveled by tourists like the rest of the River Road in the park. Such a road if indeed built would still be in the national park and should be accessible. Many border patrol roads on our borders from California to Texas allow public access that aren't even in parks or such. I've been on some. Chispa Road west/northwest out of Hwy 170 is one close example, and this one through private property. It's also interesting if you look at that section along the river in the park from Santa Elena to Lajitas is about 17 miles on a map...the same distance that Southwest Valley Constructors is responsible for. Just an observation on my part, no direct knowledge.

I've tried to keep this a factual issue about a physical thing occurring in the Big Bend area, and I hope I've succeeded. There's a lot still to be discovered as this project continues and what we know now may be the true bottom line and then again things may change. Anyone else doing a deep dive into this, please post anything that can be somewhat confirmed on this.
 
Little Stevie said:
That map has changed several times over the past few months, without notice, often without a legend. It is not a reliable document. What it said, and says, has contradicted the rare statements by CBP. Only in the last month (I think) has CBP met with local officials or issued public statements. Even landowners on the Rio most often learn of plans only when a crew shows up and starts clearing and surveying.

BTW, even Fox News has run segments on the wall in the Big Bend. No AI needed for this; abundant photos and notes from people I know. I sat in a cafe on hwy 29 in Llano having migas and coffee watching truck after truck roll by, stacked with the big bollard panels, heading west from the fab plant in Burnet.

I have been truthful in all my posts and, without being a jerk, have quietly but plainly made it clear that I think the wall in the Big Bend is worse than a bad idea, it is a stupendously costly, astonishingly cruel and magnificently destructive project. It is reasonable to talk about it here because I know many of us love the place, treasure it for its majesty, beauty, solitude and quiet; and because several folks here have conducted rallies out there and have an interest in the Bend's conservation. And I do not find roads, lights, towers, cameras and other surveillance appropriate or necessary.

I also want to make it clear that when I say "Big Bend" I mean the entire Big Bend region, considered broadly. So, from say, Quitman Pass through the Lower Canyons. After all, the Rio is the longest protected stretch of Wild and Scenic River in the USA.
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Yes, the map and the plan has changed over time, and that's a good thing. It has changed for the better, as the original plan was a good deal of bollard wall in the "yellow" section of the map which I agree was extremely unnecessary. While I disagree with you about the surveillance aspect, I don't think you're a jerk...LOL! We should all be able to voice our opinions about this project in a civilized manner based on facts as we find them. That's been some of the problem with this project in terms of finding facts versus personal agendas.

Anyway, on the surveillance aspect, for decades and decades this nation has had some pretty nasty enemies, and I don't want open borders that would simplify the entry of nefarious characters that are even aside from the existing drug and human trafficking. On the other hand like you, I don't want an actual physical wall, gun towers, stadium lights, and other eyesores in a place like Big Bend. This is where I believe a non-obtrusive technology with patrol can handle that issue in sensitive areas like Big Bend. But that's me, and I don't have any heartburn with those who disagree with me.

On your observation of the bollard walls leaving the manufacturing plant, do you know where they were going? It's a very long border.
 
TNC said:
Yes, the map and the plan has changed over time, and that's a good thing. It has changed for the better, as the original plan was a good deal of bollard wall in the "yellow" section of the map which I agree was extremely unnecessary. While I disagree with you about the surveillance aspect, I don't think you're a jerk...LOL! We should all be able to voice our opinions about this project in a civilized manner based on facts as we find them. That's been some of the problem with this project in terms of finding facts versus personal agendas.

Anyway, on the surveillance aspect, for decades and decades this nation has had some pretty nasty enemies, and I don't want open borders that would simplify the entry of nefarious characters that are even aside from the existing drug and human trafficking. On the other hand like you, I don't want an actual physical wall, gun towers, stadium lights, and other eyesores in a place like Big Bend. This is where I believe a non-obtrusive technology with patrol can handle that issue in sensitive areas like Big Bend. But that's me, and I don't have any heartburn with those who disagree with me.

On your observation of the bollard walls leaving the manufacturing plant, do you know where they were going? It's a very long border.
Click to expand...
Hi TNC

I met you at Loma Paloma RV park several years ago. My buddy and I were on KTM 500's and you and some of the other regulars (Bob from Colorado and some others) were teasing us about our orange bikes - We had beers and burgers under the shed. Anyway like you I've ridden in the area a long long time so have ridden in National Park, State Park, Black Gap WMA, Pinto Canyon, Chispa Rd etc... Hopefully the wall, more technology, wider roads won't ruin things - will have to head down early this Fall and see what's been done
 
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Liteitup said:
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She stated that she talked to the construction people, park people, and law enforcement. I appreciate her effort there, but did she ask them where that road is intended to go or did I miss that in her report? I'd think someone among those contacts would be willing to say what direction that road was headed or how or if it was to be integrated into the existing road ultimately. The existing road and the river are very close to each other there and practically touch in places. Is this going to be a new separate road, a change eliminating the existing pavement there, or something else? Surely that's not top secret, and it would seem someone there could give some kind of idea what the intent of that new road is. She stated everyone she had talked with was friendly, but if they told her it was none of her business, I'd have issue with that. She's clearly not there causing trouble. I just wish she'd ask them a couple of questions to add to her report.

This also kind of touches on what I said in an earlier post. Border Patrol, park personnel, construction reps, or just anyone in charge might save some grief by making a YT video or something along those lines to explain more precisely what the plan is as they move along with the project. Seems like it would let the air out of some of the hysteria surrounding the whole deal. Then again, maybe they are hiding the fact that they are going to build an actual bollard wall with gun turrets, guard dogs, and land mines. Now...I'm being facetious there...I hope...but these are the kinds of ideas anyone might get if the people directly in charge of this project don't make very public and factual statements on the ground there as this continues. Unfortunately it has gotten harder and harder to get specific facts. Every thing seems to point to "no bollard wall", but it would sure be nice to have someone in charge of this project create some form of communication that specifies what will be put in place and where. Show some stinking pictures of these "vehicle rails", where they will be placed, and clearly show on a map...closeup...where these patrol roads will go. Is that really so hard?
 
steved57 said:
Hi TNC

I met you at Loma Paloma RV park several years ago. My buddy and I were on KTM 5000's and you and some of the other regulars (Bob from Colorado and some others) were teasing us about our orange bikes - We had beers and burgers under the shed. Anyway like you I've ridden in the area a long long time so have ridden in National Park, State Park, Black Gap WMA, Pinto Canyon, Chispa Rd etc... Hopefully the wall, more technology, wider roads won't ruin things - will have to head down early this Fall and see what's been done
Click to expand...
Hey, I remember you guys well. How could I forget. Y'all were riding KTM 5000's. :lol2: Well, you know I'm jacking with you...LOL! Yeah, I don't think many people who go to this area want steel walls, lighting, and other obtrusive elements. I just wish those in charge would make some very public and specific releases of info about how it's going to play out. Me and my group won't probably head down there until December like we usually do. I'm a little concerned about additional traffic down there in terms of workers, trucks, equipment, etc. The roads there aren't super highways by any means. Since running into y'all, I've updated my ride...CRF450RL. I had to go there to keep up with those KTM 5000's.:mrgreen:
 
I want a KTM 5000 myself! Carry my tonnage better.
 
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That looks more like drainage control then anything else . the road to Santa Elena canyon is in the foreground and the pile of dirt behind the expert is what washes across the road every time it rains , mud at least a foot deep for several hundred yards in places it builds up to the point that it has to be moved away from the road and back out in the desert . Without being there and seeing what is going on I wont make a decision but again , I seriously doubt that there will be much you see when its all over with . The park must maintain the roads in the park and anytime the RG river gets angry extensive damage is done to the primitive roads . I can see that if the opportunity to improve those roads at somebody else's expense is available the park should jump at it .
 
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