Efficient vs. Economical

[Thurmont]

thread split off from Gen-Ryu discussion to concentrate on efficiency vs. economy.

 

[FrayAdjacent]

Re: Yamaha Gen-Ryu Hybrid

since you don't shift, I believe it is more appropriate to call it a scooter than a motorcycle. I'm the camp that doesn't see the benefit of the additional complexity to an already very efficient mode of transportation. How many miles will you have to ride to recoup the additional cost vs. a non-hybrid?

That would depend quite a bit. What's the cost of the hybrid bike compared to it's equivalent non-hybrid? What are gas prices? What fuel economy does the hybrid achieve?

A hybrid really isn't very much more complicated than a traditional vehicle. Let's look at what it uses:

Electric motors - been around for over 100 years
Batteries - been around for over 100 years
Internal combustion engine - been around for over 100 years
Computers - been around for over 60 years

See? Nothing is new, it's just a new way of using it. Battery and computer technology has and continues to improve every year.

 

[brown]

Re: Yamaha Gen-Ryu Hybrid

since you don't shift, I believe it is more appropriate to call it a scooter than a motorcycle. I'm the camp that doesn't see the benefit of the additional complexity to an already very efficient mode of transportation. How many miles will you have to ride to recoup the additional cost vs. a non-hybrid?

efficient mode of transportation? An 800 lb motorcycle gets 35 mpg. A two ton car can get 30 mpg. What's efficient about a motorcycle?

 

[DFW_Warrior]

Re: Yamaha Gen-Ryu Hybrid

efficient mode of transportation? An 800 lb motorcycle gets 35 mpg. A two ton car can get 30 mpg. What's efficient about a motorcycle?

You are comparing apples to oranges. If you actually compare fuel efficient models of the two types of vehicles, then you will be hard pressed to beat a motorcycle. But if you want to compare a typical Harley with an econo-car, then be my guest.

So lets see... Ninja 250 gets an average of 60mpg, TW200 gets around 65-70mpg, and even an SV650 when ridden right will get 55-60mpg. Hmmmmm, what else do we have... FJR1300, a 700lb bike that will do 140+mph also routinely gets 50-55mpg. Yes, if you get a super econo-car it might match the FJR's mpg, while weighing much more. But if you push it one tiny bit past 60mph then your fuel economy goes right down the tubes.

Have you ever seen the Top Gear episode where they take a BMW M series car and have it follow a hybrid around their test track? All the BMW had to do was keep up with the hybrid, while the hybrid tried to go as fast as it could, and at the end of the test, the BMW actually used LESS fuel than the hybrid. Hmmmmmm, how could that be?!?!?!?!

 

[DFW_Warrior]

Re: Yamaha Gen-Ryu Hybrid

Look what we found here..... The sad part... there are actually tons of environmental nuts that think they are helping by owning these little hybrid cars.

 

[brown]

Re: Yamaha Gen-Ryu Hybrid

You are comparing apples to oranges. If you actually compare fuel efficient models of the two types of vehicles, then you will be hard pressed to beat a motorcycle. But if you want to compare a typical Harley with an econo-car, then be my guest.

So lets see... Ninja 250 gets an average of 60mpg, TW200 gets around 65-70mpg, and even an SV650 when ridden right will get 55-60mpg. Hmmmmm, what else do we have... FJR1300, a 700lb bike that will do 140+mph also routinely gets 50-55mpg. Yes, if you get a super econo-car it might match the FJR's mpg, while weighing much more. But if you push it one tiny bit past 60mph then your fuel economy goes right down the tubes.

Have you ever seen the Top Gear episode where they take a BMW M series car and have it follow a hybrid around their test track? All the BMW had to do was keep up with the hybrid, while the hybrid tried to go as fast as it could, and at the end of the test, the BMW actually used LESS fuel than the hybrid. Hmmmmmm, how could that be?!?!?!?!

I guess I don't get your "apples and oranges" remark. We are talking about motorcycles being an effecient mode of transportation. Your obviously talking about total mpg. I am looking at efficiency as fuel comsumption vs weight. And I didn't say anything about comparisons of hybrids vs conventional motors (which I totally agree with you, even thought it has nothing to do with the discussion).

Your Ninja 250, weighing 333lbs/374 lbs dry/wet getting 60 mpg versus a 2700lb Honda Civic, weighing 8 TIMES AS MUCH, getting 26/34 mpg. Which one is more efficient? I don't consider getting twice the mpg at 8 times less the weight efficient at all. Hmmmmmmm

 

[DFW_Warrior]

Re: Yamaha Gen-Ryu Hybrid

Your Ninja 250, weighing 333lbs/374 lbs dry/wet getting 60 mpg versus a 2700lb Honda Civic, weighing 8 TIMES AS MUCH, getting 26/34 mpg. Which one is more efficient? I don't consider getting twice the mpg at 8 times less the weight efficient at all. Hmmmmmmm

IC engines have a limiting point at where efficiency just won't change no matter if you think it will or not. Tractor trailers get 8-10 mpg while bringing in a GVW of 60,000lbs. They blow your efficient Honda Civic away in terms of weight-mpg.

My Dodge truck driving with no payload at all will get 13.6mpg. With 4000 lbs of cargo being pulled behind it, mileage will fall to 12mpg. Trying to equate weight to tonnage being moved is unrealistic. Want further proof, look at diesel/electric locomotives. They are hands down the most fuel efficient land vehicle that we currently have in the U.S. in terms of weight vs. tonnage. So why aren't we all buying them to drive to work in?

To me efficiency isn't mpg vs. tonnage equation. If you buy a Honda Civic and only carry one person in it, then you are still better off with a scoot that costs less, takes less material to build, and is still better on the MPG's. To me, that is efficiency.

 

[brown]

Re: Yamaha Gen-Ryu Hybrid

IC engines have a limiting point at where efficiency just won't change no matter if you think it will or not. Tractor trailers get 8-10 mpg while bringing in a GVW of 60,000lbs. They blow your efficient Honda Civic away in terms of weight-mpg.

My Dodge truck driving with no payload at all will get 13.6mpg. With 4000 lbs of cargo being pulled behind it, mileage will fall to 12mpg. Trying to equate weight to tonnage being moved is unrealistic. Want further proof, look at diesel/electric locomotives. They are hands down the most fuel efficient land vehicle that we currently have in the U.S. in terms of weight vs. tonnage. So why aren't we all buying them to drive to work in?

To me efficiency isn't mpg vs. tonnage equation. If you buy a Honda Civic and only carry one person in it, then you are still better off with a scoot that costs less, takes less material to build, and is still better on the MPG's. To me, that is efficiency.

Then you obviously mean a motorcycle is more economical, not more effecient.

 

[DFW_Warrior]

Re: Yamaha Gen-Ryu Hybrid

Then you obviously mean a motorcycle is more economical, not more effecient.

Then you obviously mean that a locomotive is more efficient than a Honda Civic.

 

[FrayAdjacent]

Re: Yamaha Gen-Ryu Hybrid

As for efficiency, you need to think of it like this:

It moves THIS much weight THIS many miles using THIS many gallons of gas.

Most economy cars will beat motorcycles hands-down on this measure.

However, if your measure is only...

It moves ME this far on THIS much fuel, then a motorcycle seems more efficient.

 

[brown]

Re: Yamaha Gen-Ryu Hybrid

Then you obviously mean that a locomotive is more efficient than a Honda Civic.

Whatever

 

[DFW_Warrior]

Re: Yamaha Gen-Ryu Hybrid

Very well thought out response.

Man, for a little while I thought this one was going to last. I guessed wrong I suppose.

 

[poser]

I have to agree with DFW on this one, only people in the shipping world are concerned with how much weight a dollar will move.
For the average consumer, they look at how many miles will my dollar take me.
And the little ninja 250 = the civic/scion/etc...
Heck my little SV650 got 45-50 mpg and I rode very..."sprirtedly", and even at the track it sipped fuel. (I often refered to the SV as the miata of the motorcycle world)

My Tundra weighs in over 5k lbs and will almost touch 19mpg on a road trip, and consistantly get 16-17 mpg mixed driving (and I use a LOT of throttle), so by your logic its just as efficiant as my wife's corolla. It weight twice as much, and gets slightly better than half the mileage.
And its certainly more "efficiant" than my WRX was, but part of that was because I drove it

 

[patricjft]

Duplicate threads, or am I catching a merge that is in process??

http://www.twtex.com/forums/showthread.php?t=41031

 

[RedPill]

Duplicate threads, or am I catching a merge that is in process??

http://www.twtex.com/forums/showthread.php?t=41031

Well, that would be more efficient, wouldn't it?

 

[SL350]

I too want to see more diesel - the army had a diesel KLR about 10 years ago. Great mileage but I never heard the long term report on it.

Electric is fine in the city and I can see a bunch of small electric mo-ped class machines around. But that is not new either.

The Prius on two wheels does not appeal to me and I don't think the kids will like it either. I am looking for a De Lorean powered by a food processor.

 

[poser]

It wasn't that long ago (less than 2 years) that I was reading about the KLRs the army uses that run on deisle or whatever that keroscene fuel is they use.
Said they get something crazy, like 120 mpg running wide open all the time. I'd take on fo those, 720 mile range on a tank I'm not sure I can do that in a day

 

[TWTim]

Duplicate threads, or am I catching a merge that is in process??

http://www.twtex.com/forums/showthread.php?t=41031

Yeah, what just happened here? Did I fall into a parallel universe?

 

[STrider]

Yeah, what just happened here? Did I fall into a parallel universe?

Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain.

Yes - somebody tried to separate the efficiency vs. economy posts from the Yamaha Gen-Ryu posts. What you see now is the result. An admin should be along shortly to remedy the situation - the people that are just a moderator (hi, Rusty!) can't fix it.

 

[brown]

Here is an article I read sometime ago. It pretty much parallels my thinking.

http://www.motorcyclecruiser.com/tech/0905_crup_motorcycle_fuel_economy/index.html

 

[JustJ]

Re: Yamaha Gen-Ryu Hybrid

Have you ever seen the Top Gear episode where they take a BMW M series car and have it follow a hybrid around their test track? All the BMW had to do was keep up with the hybrid, while the hybrid tried to go as fast as it could, and at the end of the test, the BMW actually used LESS fuel than the hybrid. Hmmmmmm, how could that be?!?!?!?!

With the hybrid going as fast as it could, it was using the gas engine MUCH more than the electric. Like any car (or bike), if you push the engine as far as it'll go, you will get very poor gas mileage. The test ... if one could actually call it that ... was rigged. In average, everyday commuting and driving, the Prius uses much less gas than the BMW. It's also less expensive ... it takes 87/regular unleaded vs. 93 octane/supreme for the BMW.

 

[TWTim]

All emphasis mine:

Prius Outdoes Hummer in Enviromental Damage
By Chris Demorro

The Toyota Prius has become the flagship car for those in our society so environmentally conscious that they are willing to spend a premium to show the world how much they care. Unfortunately for them, their ultimate 'green car' is the source of some of the worst pollution in North America; it takes more combined energy per Prius to produce than a Hummer.

Before we delve into the seedy underworld of hybrids, you must first understand how a hybrid works. For this, we will use the most popular hybrid on the market, the Toyota Prius.

The Prius is powered by not one, but two engines: a standard 76 horsepower, 1.5-liter gas engine found in most cars today and a battery- powered engine that deals out 67 horsepower and a whooping 295ft/lbs of torque, below 2000 revolutions per minute. Essentially, the Toyota Synergy Drive system, as it is so called, propels the car from a dead stop to up to 30mph. This is where the largest percent of gas is consumed. As any physics major can tell you, it takes more energy to get an object moving than to keep it moving. The battery is recharged through the braking system, as well as when the gasoline engine takes over anywhere north of 30mph. It seems like a great energy efficient and environmentally sound car, right?

You would be right if you went by the old government EPA estimates, which netted the Prius an incredible 60 miles per gallon in the city and 51 miles per gallon on the highway. Unfortunately for Toyota, the government realized how unrealistic their EPA tests were, which consisted of highway speeds limited to 55mph and acceleration of only 3.3 mph per second. The new tests which affect all 2008 models give a much more realistic rating with highway speeds of 80mph and acceleration of 8mph per second. This has dropped the Prius's EPA down by 25 percent to an average of 45mpg. This now puts the Toyota within spitting distance of cars like the Chevy Aveo, which costs less then half what the Prius costs.

However, if that was the only issue with the Prius, I wouldn't be writing this article. It gets much worse.

Building a Toyota Prius causes more environmental damage than a Hummer that is on the road for three times longer than a Prius. As already noted, the Prius is partly driven by a battery which contains nickel. The nickel is mined and smelted at a plant in Sudbury, Ontario. This plant has caused so much environmental damage to the surrounding environment that NASA has used the 'dead zone' around the plant to test moon rovers. The area around the plant is devoid of any life for miles.

The plant is the source of all the nickel found in a Prius' battery and Toyota purchases 1,000 tons annually. Dubbed the Superstack, the plague-factory has spread sulfur dioxide across northern Ontario, becoming every environmentalist's nightmare.

"The acid rain around Sudbury was so bad it destroyed all the plants and the soil slid down off the hillside," said Canadian Greenpeace energy-coordinator David Martin during an interview with Mail, a British-based newspaper.
All of this would be bad enough in and of itself; however, the journey to make a hybrid doesn't end there. The nickel produced by this disastrous plant is shipped via massive container ship to the largest nickel refinery in Europe. From there, the nickel hops over to China to produce 'nickel foam'. From there, it goes to Japan. Finally, the completed batteries are shipped to the United States, finalizing the around-the-world trip required to produce a single Prius battery. Are these not sounding less and less like environmentally sound cars and more like a farce?

Wait, I haven’t even got to the best part yet.

When you pool together all the combined energy it takes to drive and build a Toyota Prius, the flagship car of energy fanatics, it takes almost 50 percent more energy than a Hummer - the Prius's arch nemesis.

Through a study by CNW Marketing called "Dust to Dust", the total combined energy is taken from all the electrical, fuel, transportation, materials (metal, plastic, etc) and hundreds of other factors over the expected lifetime of a vehicle. The Prius costs an average of $3.25 per mile driven over a lifetime of 100,000 miles - the expected lifespan of the Hybrid.

The Hummer, on the other hand, costs a more fiscal $1.95 per mile to put on the road over an expected lifetime of 300,000 miles. That means the Hummer will last three times longer than a Prius and use less combined energy doing it.

So, if you are really an environmentalist, ditch the Prius. Instead, buy one of the most economical cars available, a Chevy Aveo, and fix that lead foot.

One last fun fact for you: it takes five years to offset the premium price of a Prius. Meaning, you have to wait 60 months to save any money over a non-hybrid car because of lower gas expenses.

 

[JustJ]

Right. Now, let's examine this a bit further ...
First, the whole EPA Mileage "estimate" has always been a crock and everyone knew it. When the EPA re-did the calculation, fuel economy ratings went down across the board. This article, however, seems to imply that it was just the Prius. Not so. With the new standards, the Aero comes in at 27 city/34 highway and the Prius comes in at 51 city/48 highway. That's not "spitting distance". (Notice how the author simply made the claim but didn't provide any numbers?)
Second ... the article makes it sound like the whole nickel-being-shipped-around is unique to the Prius. It's not. ALL cars, ALL makes, ALL models have parts shipped here and there, from initial mining (and ALL cars used mined metals) to manufacturing and assembly. And then, of course, there is the cost of shipping it to you. The author of this article focuses only on the nickel and not the rest of the materials. And let's not stop there. The batteries are NiMH (Nickel-Metal Hydride) batteries. The same type that you'll find in your laptop, among other things. And this article doesn't account, at all, for the large recycling programs that are - and have been - in place for NiMH batteries.
Third, the claim that it takes "5 years to offset the premium" is loaded. Beyond belief. I remember these arguments ... back when gas was around $1.00 - $1.25/gallon (when the Prius was first introduced). It's been a LOOOOONG time since we've seen those kinds of prices on gas. When gas gets up to around $4.00/gallon (we've seen this and we'll see it again ... sooner rather than later), the economics change. A LOT. And that's not factoring in the income tax deduction that you could take on a new hybrid. (It's no longer valid for Toyota, but may be for other manufacturers).
Finally ... "CNW Marketing Research". Who are these people? What are there credentials for compiling this data? Did they include the cost of the energy used in refining crude to gasoline and transporting this? They do have a TON of datapoints, but there is no methodology at all discussed ... how did they come up with them? As far as one can tell, they made them up. They present a scientific study, but follow none of the rigors and practices of a real scientific study. You have to accept their numbers "on faith". Another report from MIT (http://www.cleanairnet.org/transport/1754/articles-69297_resource_1.pdf) draws different conclusions, but it's a little dry ... it was done by real scientists and the entire methodology is spelled out.

 

[TWTim]

I think you're missing the bigger picture here. Any data can be nitpicked. Furthermore, most any data can be manipulated to make a point, particularly those of corollary nature. It's all really beside the point.

Ultimately, the average person has to ask himself whether or not spending twice as much for a Prius as on a comparable vehicle, simply to gain 10-ish miles per gallon in fuel efficiency, is worth the price. Some people will inevitably buy the Prius, if only to look sanctimonious as they drive down the freeway, and should be free to do so. But for the average person like me, who has a 6.5-mile round trip commute, the expense of a Prius would never be offset by fuel savings in a reasonable amount of time.

Let's also not forget that most any vehicle can be converted to natural gas for a fraction of the cost of a Prius. Talk about clean and inexpensive. And given that there are hi-mileage diesels and petrol cars already on the market (my 2007 highline Honda gets a reliable 40 miles per gallon on the highway), the Prius -- from the standpoint of plain common sense -- isn't that great a deal for most people.

As Jeremy Clarkson once said, the best function of a hybrid is in parting smug people from their money. I tend to agree at this point in the era of electric-car technology.

 

[brown]

Re: Yamaha Gen-Ryu Hybrid

Very well thought out response.

Man, for a little while I thought this one was going to last. I guessed wrong I suppose.

I equate it to discussing something with the wife. I can explain it to you, but I can't understand if for you.