StromXTc
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Well said. Was thinking about what they teach in school, always have a escape . With abs and escape path he could have just been looking to replace chrome. That big hog looks about as maneuverable as a World War 1 tank.
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HD fatality accident, braking question
- Thread starter woodsguy
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The forks and front end of the bike look reasonably intact, so it doesn’t appear that it it hit the back of the truck very hard, or perhaps at all. The bags have come off the bike and are laying in the road, and there’s damage to the top of the triple tree, so it appears the bike rolled. Perhaps he high sided and was thrown off the bike? I would not expect a perfectly straight skid mark in that case.
Isn’t MSF now mandatory to receive an M endorsement? I wonder if the rider was licensed?
Isn’t MSF now mandatory to receive an M endorsement? I wonder if the rider was licensed?
woodsguy
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"Isn’t MSF now mandatory to receive an M endorsement? I wonder if the rider was licensed?" I think so?? Almost certain. Of course even if it is, doesn't mean he or any other new rider has done it yet.
Meriden
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One of the things I noticed was that the handlebars were facing full forward as if the bike hit the bumper and the weight of the rider moved them as he moved forward. The back of the truck is high, so it's possible that the triple tree is what made impact on the bumper.
All said, without being on the scene with a tape measure in hand, it's all speculation.
All said, without being on the scene with a tape measure in hand, it's all speculation.
Poor rider, condolences to his family.
The truck is tall, the same make/model/height (and color) as mine so I'm familiar. It's kind of eerie actually.
I suspect the rider suffered a broken neck based on the height of the bike and impact mark on the tailgate (which BTW has thin sheet metal back there. I dented mine on a sappling once). Not to be disrespectful or gruesome but it does not take a strong off kilter impact to the spine to do catastrophic damage.
The truck is tall, the same make/model/height (and color) as mine so I'm familiar. It's kind of eerie actually.
I suspect the rider suffered a broken neck based on the height of the bike and impact mark on the tailgate (which BTW has thin sheet metal back there. I dented mine on a sappling once). Not to be disrespectful or gruesome but it does not take a strong off kilter impact to the spine to do catastrophic damage.
StromXTc
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True, and what have they said about impact testing. As little as 15mph or something for deadly impact without seatbelts? (Not sure)
StromXTc
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I had to take it to get the m. I want to say it became mandatory in texas in 2009. Took at a local junior college ($250). It was a Friday evening, sat. and sun. course. I was scared to death so I paid attention and aced the test.
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The MSF course is a good start, but it basically qualifies you to ride around at low speeds in a parking lot, which is a WORLD of difference compared to riding out on the streets in traffic.
It is easy to sit and say what the rider should have or could have done after the fact. I know there were a few times when I was relatively inexperienced that I locked up the back brake, left a long skid mark, and basically got lucky. One in particular was a truck in front of me turning left from my lane and he had no brake lights. By the time I realized he had slowed, I panicked and hit the back brake hard! The bike started sliding and the rear starting trying to take the lead. I have no idea how I kept it upright. I had a big panel truck in the right lane so I could not change lanes and there was no way I was going to stop in time. I had recently been reading a lot of riding books, in particular the stuff from David Hough on street survival. "LOOK FOR THE GAP!" popped into my head, and without thinking that is exactly what I did, slipping juuuust past the corner of the stopped truck and between the panel van as it was passing the truck. I'd like to say it was my awesome skills that saved me, but I have zero doubt it was a "hand of God" moment...
It could have just as easily gone the wrong way. That REALLY got my attention and I started taking braking and avoidance skills more seriously.
In a panic or high stress situation, your body does what is reflexive or what you have trained it to do. This is why training is so critical in high stress professions. When the poo hits the proverbial fan, you don't have time to sit and think about what you might need to do. You need to instantly see what is happening and react properly. Even a slight hesitation can mean the difference between disaster and success! Reading books is a good start because they point out common scenarios, the wrong reactions, and the right reactions. They give you a good idea of what you need to be aware of and what you can practice. For street riders, a good track day can do amazing things for one's riding skills, regardless of what kind of bike you ride. Track days are NOT just about racing! For adventure/dirt riders, a good class is just as useful. Learning and repeating the skills helps us to get the proper reactions in place.
Here are a few books I think are excellent,
Don't get hung up on the "racing" or "sport" part of the titles. The physics of how bikes handle is the same for all bikes on pavement, sport bike or cruiser. The principles involved are the same, they are just applied slightly differently for different styles of bikes. ALL of those are great bathroom books! Stick them in there, read a chapter every time you visit, and you'll have read them in no time and I promise they will improve your riding. I especially liked the first and fourth books in the list.
Visualization helps a lot. It might sound crazy, but it does work. It is not a substitute for real practice, but it is better than nothing. When reading those books, I would imagine the scenarios in my mind and then visualize myself going through the steps involved in successfully navigating them. I try to see it with as much detail as my aging brain can muster and I try to think as clearly about every single thing I need to do. This has saved my bacon on more than one occasion!!
YouTube is also an excellent resource nowadays for real quality content. This is especially true for dirt riding skills. I have watched many really good videos that cover very specific skills. Again, I will try to visualize myself doing those skills. Where possible, I will try to practice those skills in the real world as well.
What you learn is that many of our instinctive "survival" reactions actually turn out to be the WRONG reactions in many cases. Stomping on the rear brake is wrong. Standing the bike up mid corner is wrong. Chopping the throttle mid corner is wrong. On the dirt, sitting down and throwing out our feet is wrong. Grabbing a fistful of front brake is wrong. The list goes on and on. These books and many of those videos will highlight and explain WHY those reactions are wrong and what the proper reactions should be.
One other thing I do is yell at myself in my helmet. I don't really know how it got started, but it does help, especially in the dirt. When my "instincts" kick in and start trying to make me do the wrong thing, I have found that yelling the right thing at myself in my helmet REALLY helps me to override that instinctive part of my brain. I don't always yell, sometimes I just talk if I am in a tense situation but it is not immediately life threatening. When I first started riding on the street, I would say out loud, "Slow, Look, Lean, and Roll" as I approached and navigated corners. When I first started riding dirt, I had to constantly tell myself to keep my eyes UP and FORWARD because the natural tendency is to look at the ground right in front of the bike.
I think a BIG mistake made by a lot of new riders is that they simply don't appreciate that there really is a good deal of skill involved in riding a motorcycle. It is NOT just like riding a bicycle with a motor. As such, I think they tend to be over confident in their abilities. They lack an appreciation for the reality of what is involved and so tell themselves that they will be fine because they are going to ride careful and not act stupid. However, as new riders, they lack the proper references for them to appreciate when they might be getting into danger or when they might not actually be riding carefully. As this story has shown, reality can be VERY unforgiving of our false perceptions about how we are riding or our estimation of our skills.
It is easy to sit and say what the rider should have or could have done after the fact. I know there were a few times when I was relatively inexperienced that I locked up the back brake, left a long skid mark, and basically got lucky. One in particular was a truck in front of me turning left from my lane and he had no brake lights. By the time I realized he had slowed, I panicked and hit the back brake hard! The bike started sliding and the rear starting trying to take the lead. I have no idea how I kept it upright. I had a big panel truck in the right lane so I could not change lanes and there was no way I was going to stop in time. I had recently been reading a lot of riding books, in particular the stuff from David Hough on street survival. "LOOK FOR THE GAP!" popped into my head, and without thinking that is exactly what I did, slipping juuuust past the corner of the stopped truck and between the panel van as it was passing the truck. I'd like to say it was my awesome skills that saved me, but I have zero doubt it was a "hand of God" moment...
It could have just as easily gone the wrong way. That REALLY got my attention and I started taking braking and avoidance skills more seriously.In a panic or high stress situation, your body does what is reflexive or what you have trained it to do. This is why training is so critical in high stress professions. When the poo hits the proverbial fan, you don't have time to sit and think about what you might need to do. You need to instantly see what is happening and react properly. Even a slight hesitation can mean the difference between disaster and success! Reading books is a good start because they point out common scenarios, the wrong reactions, and the right reactions. They give you a good idea of what you need to be aware of and what you can practice. For street riders, a good track day can do amazing things for one's riding skills, regardless of what kind of bike you ride. Track days are NOT just about racing! For adventure/dirt riders, a good class is just as useful. Learning and repeating the skills helps us to get the proper reactions in place.
Here are a few books I think are excellent,
Proficient Motorcycling: The Ultimate Guide to Riding Well, Updated & Expanded 2nd Edition (CompanionHouse Books) The Must-Have Manual: Confront Fears, Sharpen Handling Skills, & Learn to Ride Safely: Hough, David L.: 0731360583598: Amazon.com: Books
Proficient Motorcycling: The Ultimate Guide to Riding Well, Updated & Expanded 2nd Edition (CompanionHouse Books) The Must-Have Manual: Confront Fears, Sharpen Handling Skills, & Learn to Ride Safely [Hough, David L.] on Amazon.com. *FREE* shipping on qualifying offers. Proficient Motorcycling...
www.amazon.com
Mastering the Ride, 2nd Edition, Updated and Revised: More Proficient Motorcycling (CompanionHouse Books): Hough, David L.: 9781935484868: Amazon.com: Books
Mastering the Ride, 2nd Edition, Updated and Revised: More Proficient Motorcycling (CompanionHouse Books) [Hough, David L.] on Amazon.com. *FREE* shipping on qualifying offers. Mastering the Ride, 2nd Edition, Updated and Revised: More Proficient Motorcycling (CompanionHouse Books)
www.amazon.com
Twist of the Wrist: The Motorcycle Roadracers Handbook: Code, Keith: 9780965045018: Amazon.com: Books
Twist of the Wrist: The Motorcycle Roadracers Handbook [Code, Keith] on Amazon.com. *FREE* shipping on qualifying offers. Twist of the Wrist: The Motorcycle Roadracers Handbook
www.amazon.com
A Twist of the Wrist Vol. 2: The Basics of High-Performance Motorcycle Riding: Keith Code, Doug Chandler: 9780965045025: Amazon.com: Books
A Twist of the Wrist Vol. 2: The Basics of High-Performance Motorcycle Riding [Keith Code, Doug Chandler] on Amazon.com. *FREE* shipping on qualifying offers. A Twist of the Wrist Vol. 2: The Basics of High-Performance Motorcycle Riding
www.amazon.com
Total Control: High Performance Street Riding Techniques, 2nd Edition: Parks, Lee: 9780760343449: Amazon.com: Books
Total Control: High Performance Street Riding Techniques, 2nd Edition [Parks, Lee] on Amazon.com. *FREE* shipping on qualifying offers. Total Control: High Performance Street Riding Techniques, 2nd Edition
www.amazon.com
Sport Riding Techniques: How To Develop Real World Skills for Speed, Safety, and Confidence on the Street and Track: Nick Ienatsch, Kenny Roberts: 9781893618077: Amazon.com: Books
Sport Riding Techniques: How To Develop Real World Skills for Speed, Safety, and Confidence on the Street and Track [Nick Ienatsch, Kenny Roberts] on Amazon.com. *FREE* shipping on qualifying offers. Sport Riding Techniques: How To Develop Real World Skills for Speed, Safety, and Confidence on...
www.amazon.com
Don't get hung up on the "racing" or "sport" part of the titles. The physics of how bikes handle is the same for all bikes on pavement, sport bike or cruiser. The principles involved are the same, they are just applied slightly differently for different styles of bikes. ALL of those are great bathroom books! Stick them in there, read a chapter every time you visit, and you'll have read them in no time and I promise they will improve your riding. I especially liked the first and fourth books in the list.
Visualization helps a lot. It might sound crazy, but it does work. It is not a substitute for real practice, but it is better than nothing. When reading those books, I would imagine the scenarios in my mind and then visualize myself going through the steps involved in successfully navigating them. I try to see it with as much detail as my aging brain can muster and I try to think as clearly about every single thing I need to do. This has saved my bacon on more than one occasion!!
YouTube is also an excellent resource nowadays for real quality content. This is especially true for dirt riding skills. I have watched many really good videos that cover very specific skills. Again, I will try to visualize myself doing those skills. Where possible, I will try to practice those skills in the real world as well.
What you learn is that many of our instinctive "survival" reactions actually turn out to be the WRONG reactions in many cases. Stomping on the rear brake is wrong. Standing the bike up mid corner is wrong. Chopping the throttle mid corner is wrong. On the dirt, sitting down and throwing out our feet is wrong. Grabbing a fistful of front brake is wrong. The list goes on and on. These books and many of those videos will highlight and explain WHY those reactions are wrong and what the proper reactions should be.
One other thing I do is yell at myself in my helmet. I don't really know how it got started, but it does help, especially in the dirt. When my "instincts" kick in and start trying to make me do the wrong thing, I have found that yelling the right thing at myself in my helmet REALLY helps me to override that instinctive part of my brain. I don't always yell, sometimes I just talk if I am in a tense situation but it is not immediately life threatening. When I first started riding on the street, I would say out loud, "Slow, Look, Lean, and Roll" as I approached and navigated corners. When I first started riding dirt, I had to constantly tell myself to keep my eyes UP and FORWARD because the natural tendency is to look at the ground right in front of the bike.
I think a BIG mistake made by a lot of new riders is that they simply don't appreciate that there really is a good deal of skill involved in riding a motorcycle. It is NOT just like riding a bicycle with a motor. As such, I think they tend to be over confident in their abilities. They lack an appreciation for the reality of what is involved and so tell themselves that they will be fine because they are going to ride careful and not act stupid. However, as new riders, they lack the proper references for them to appreciate when they might be getting into danger or when they might not actually be riding carefully. As this story has shown, reality can be VERY unforgiving of our false perceptions about how we are riding or our estimation of our skills.
Meriden
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Truer words have never been said! I"ll be chuckling about that to myself the rest of the afternoon.
But still it beats heading down with little more than reading the state handbook and spending ten minutes being followed by a DPS trooper like the old days.
When my nephew quit basketball at 16 or so I suggested he take up dirt bikes. His response was a priceless "I'm too old" meaning he would never catch up to the kids that started at 5.
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Good stuff, Tourmeister.
I may be one of the newest riders on here. Some of you may not remember what it's like to be a "newbie". I've had my M about a year now and have around 5,000 miles of street riding experience. Seems it all averages out to about 30 mph, so that's maybe 150-200 hours of actual riding. Doesn't seem like a lot (but then, you get get a pilot's license after 40?
)
I'm probably more conscientious than most new riders. Maybe it's my nature, maybe it's cause I'm older, or both. You're right, I got out of MSF and got my M and thought "I'm not ready to go out of a parking lot!". So I started very slow in my neighborhood roads. Eventually got onto a trafficked road. Eventually a heavily trafficked road. Then a super slab. Then hills and twisties. But I read Proficient Motorcycling. And watched Motorman's video and quite a few MCRider videos. And I've gone to parking lots at least half a dozen times to practice swerves, U turns, emergency stops, etc.
Ultimately it's about building experience and muscle memory. The only way to do that is to put in the saddle time. And finding the fine line between confidence and arrogance. I'm not sure when you stop being a "newer" rider. Hopefully I'll never stop wanting to improve my skills. I know others who've done track days, advanced rider courses, and dirt days to improve their street skills. I kinda think some kind of CEU credits should be required to renew your license.
I may be one of the newest riders on here. Some of you may not remember what it's like to be a "newbie". I've had my M about a year now and have around 5,000 miles of street riding experience. Seems it all averages out to about 30 mph, so that's maybe 150-200 hours of actual riding. Doesn't seem like a lot (but then, you get get a pilot's license after 40?
)I'm probably more conscientious than most new riders. Maybe it's my nature, maybe it's cause I'm older, or both. You're right, I got out of MSF and got my M and thought "I'm not ready to go out of a parking lot!". So I started very slow in my neighborhood roads. Eventually got onto a trafficked road. Eventually a heavily trafficked road. Then a super slab. Then hills and twisties. But I read Proficient Motorcycling. And watched Motorman's video and quite a few MCRider videos. And I've gone to parking lots at least half a dozen times to practice swerves, U turns, emergency stops, etc.
Ultimately it's about building experience and muscle memory. The only way to do that is to put in the saddle time. And finding the fine line between confidence and arrogance. I'm not sure when you stop being a "newer" rider. Hopefully I'll never stop wanting to improve my skills. I know others who've done track days, advanced rider courses, and dirt days to improve their street skills. I kinda think some kind of CEU credits should be required to renew your license.
tshelfer
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Very sad. From a legal standpoint, I'm not sure who is 'at fault.' The police will have to answer that.
Channeling my inner Defensive Driving Instructor training, I'd say that (1) it doesn't matter, and (2) this would be considered 'preventable' by either vehicle involved. The truck clearly should not have pulled out. To Meridan's comments about light -- that's quite possible. And yet, if you're staring into blinding light and can't see anything, you simply can't pull out; I just don't know how to excuse that.
From the rider's perspective, I think it's all been said in previous posts and there may be multiple contributing factors. Chances are it had a lot to do with either inexperienceon with this particular bike, or simply overall rider inexperience. Of course we're all second-guessing this, but I'll also stick my neck out and say that with experience comes that intuition that causes many a rider to see that pickup truck, sense that it's about to do something stupid, and start proactive measures -- slow down, cover the brake, flash your lights at him, move toward the right.
In any case, a very sad situation, and somebody's son will never come home.
Channeling my inner Defensive Driving Instructor training, I'd say that (1) it doesn't matter, and (2) this would be considered 'preventable' by either vehicle involved. The truck clearly should not have pulled out. To Meridan's comments about light -- that's quite possible. And yet, if you're staring into blinding light and can't see anything, you simply can't pull out; I just don't know how to excuse that.
From the rider's perspective, I think it's all been said in previous posts and there may be multiple contributing factors. Chances are it had a lot to do with either inexperienceon with this particular bike, or simply overall rider inexperience. Of course we're all second-guessing this, but I'll also stick my neck out and say that with experience comes that intuition that causes many a rider to see that pickup truck, sense that it's about to do something stupid, and start proactive measures -- slow down, cover the brake, flash your lights at him, move toward the right.
In any case, a very sad situation, and somebody's son will never come home.
Meriden, EMS removed my helmet before getting in the ambulance 5 weeks ago.
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The fact that the location of the helmet was painted on the ground would indicate to my unprofessional brain that the rider and the helmet were separate when the first responders arrived.
StromXTc
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Huge statistic:
Approximately 43 percent of all fatal motorcycle crashes involve alcohol.7 A motorcycle requires more skill and coordination to operate than a car. Riding a motorcycle while under the influence of any alcohol significantly decreases an operator's ability to operate it safely.
Approximately 43 percent of all fatal motorcycle crashes involve alcohol.7 A motorcycle requires more skill and coordination to operate than a car. Riding a motorcycle while under the influence of any alcohol significantly decreases an operator's ability to operate it safely.
That's a pretty good dent in the trucks bumper. The mini ape bars are completely rotated forward. But I'm assuming from a leverage standpoint it would not take a great amount of force to accomplish that.
If the bike was traveling at a high rate of speed it can be difficult for a driver to appreciate that speed even if he/ she actually saw the bike approaching, especially at night.
I'm assuming speed and target fixation were factors.
If the bike was traveling at a high rate of speed it can be difficult for a driver to appreciate that speed even if he/ she actually saw the bike approaching, especially at night.
I'm assuming speed and target fixation were factors.
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Nothing you can do will guarantee you never become a statistic. HOWEVER, there is a LOT you can do to stack the deck in your favor. As your comment notes, not drinking while riding is a BIG factor. Wearing good gear is another BIG factor. The human body can sustain quite a bit of damage and still survive. I read an article talking about this and they mentioned that three large injuries is about the limit. By large, they would consider serious road rash a major injury alone. Then if you have internal injuries, that adds to the problem. So right off the bat, wearing gear that will prevent serious road rash eliminates one potential major injury and increases your body's ability to survive other injuries. Head injuries are the worst. So a quality helmet matters! If you read the reports that show the percentages of impacts for various parts of the head, you will see that something like 50% or more are on the face. So forget those half helmets or any kind of open face helmet. Get a good full face helmet. Again, that stacks the odds in your favor. Good training is another BIG factor. Riding smart and avoiding accidents to begin with is the best way to survive. Learn the common accidents and how to look out for those conditions. Ride like an idiot or be clueless about your surroundings and things won't go in your favor.
One thing we always used to point out when I was teaching MSF courses is that this statistic includes alcohol used by anyone involved in a crash that kills a motorcyclist. That sometimes also means the drunk motorist who plows into a biker or bikers.
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woodsguy
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"Shawn Ridge Stay off these contraptions. I know, I know it's not the bike riders fault but seriously think of your loved ones."
One of the comments on article, he has solved the problem. smh
One of the comments on article, he has solved the problem. smh
tshelfer
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Speed kills. Alcohol kills. Inexperience kills. Survive your first 6 months or so of riding, stay sober, ride nominally within traffic laws and well within common sense, and you are a magnitude of order less likely to be in an accident than the guy who's on the wrong side of any of those factors.
My first street accident was when I'd been street riding for two whole weeks. Showing off, hit gravel on a dog leg, ended up with some road rash and a lot of embarrassment. A month later, I got careless and was lucky to avoid a head-on while making a stupid unnecessary pass. I survived my inexperience, grew up a bit, and had a very long safety run after that.
My first street accident was when I'd been street riding for two whole weeks. Showing off, hit gravel on a dog leg, ended up with some road rash and a lot of embarrassment. A month later, I got careless and was lucky to avoid a head-on while making a stupid unnecessary pass. I survived my inexperience, grew up a bit, and had a very long safety run after that.
Add something about protecting you noggin and that’s be my advice to anybody as well.
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So obvious I forgot it, but that certainly is critical. Lack of protection kills.
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I don't know who did the brake test above, but I find it hard to believe that a Harley Street Glide and a Victory Vegas can out brake a Yamaha R1 and a GSXR-1000.
I rode out to the site of this accident that killed a 69 year old mother and her son in a similar accident. https://www.kbtx.com/home/headlines...torcyclists-In-College-Station-164142586.html There were two parallel skid marks. The longest one was 41 steps long. It appeared to me that both rear brakes had been applied and no swerving at all. The article does not state whether they were on Harleys, but debris left at the scene highly suggested it. Three of my brothers ride Harleys and from listening to conversations between them and their friends, I have concluded that a majority of Harley riders will not use their front brakes and many don't believe counter steering works. RIP to all.
I rode out to the site of this accident that killed a 69 year old mother and her son in a similar accident. https://www.kbtx.com/home/headlines...torcyclists-In-College-Station-164142586.html There were two parallel skid marks. The longest one was 41 steps long. It appeared to me that both rear brakes had been applied and no swerving at all. The article does not state whether they were on Harleys, but debris left at the scene highly suggested it. Three of my brothers ride Harleys and from listening to conversations between them and their friends, I have concluded that a majority of Harley riders will not use their front brakes and many don't believe counter steering works. RIP to all.
tshelfer
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You can stop a bike with just a rear brake??? I'd rather not try, thank you very much. 
I don't see how you could even stop short enough to pass a safety inspection.
As for counter-steering, EVERYBODY does it; some people just don't realize they're doing it. I'm not sure it's even possible to take a curve without counter-steering unless you're artificially holding the bike in an upright stance (like me creeping around a turn in a gravel road
), and doing that on a paved curve at 50mph sounds like a recipe for disaster.
I don't see how you could even stop short enough to pass a safety inspection. As for counter-steering, EVERYBODY does it; some people just don't realize they're doing it. I'm not sure it's even possible to take a curve without counter-steering unless you're artificially holding the bike in an upright stance (like me creeping around a turn in a gravel road
), and doing that on a paved curve at 50mph sounds like a recipe for disaster.
StromXTc
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WHAT tim said about counter steering and using both brakes 
. have always done them both but i was taught by the msf so...
. have always done them both but i was taught by the msf so...