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HELP! Electronic Cruise Control

Joined
Apr 20, 2009
Messages
16
Location
austin
I had the same problem with my FJR. You need to use an impact driver to get those lock tited screws out.

Oh...and you may want to rethink tapping the map sensor, why not tap all four throttle bodies instead with check valves to be safe. Also, a vacuum canister will help hold your speed going up long inclines on a heavily loaded bike and also improve the response rate of your acceleration button. It is seriously easy, just use a fuel filter:

Vacumecanisterpackage.jpg


From the fjrforum:

You may disagree....but....take it from someone who has developed a number of speed density fuel injection systems that are out driving around in production vehicles you DO NOT want to tap into the MAP sensor signal line.

I really don't mean to argue but I have personally seen sitations where MAP sensors on production systems were relocated, line length, routing and diameter changed, etc.... during development to simply to affect the tuning of the volume in the actual line leading to the MAP sensor to improve fidelity of the MAP signal under transients and steady state conditions. This involves FAR more than simply looking at the signal with a vacuum gauge....LOL. So, it is really not an opinion of mine but a proven FACT that the volume of the hose leading to the MAP sensor is a critical design element of the system and really should not be modified by tapping into that line.

Trying to determine whether the MAP signal accuracy has changed is impossible with a vacuum gauge or by simply measuring fuel economy. Period. You need hundreds of hours on a dyno and in a vehicle with some relatively sophisticated measurement hardware to determine this. YOU have no idea whether you have affected the fidelity of the MAP signal on your system. The kind of glitch that changing the MAP signal resonance will result is impossible to predict. It could be a rich or lean spike on a transient, a steady state hole in the calibration, etc. Completely unknown and unpredictable. That is the basis for my point. Since each install is going to be a bit different and line lengths, diameter and routing unpredictable YOU do not know what is going to be affected on the NEXT PERSON'S install if they use the MAP signal line as a vacuum source. Your's might not be affected and you may not care but it is inadvisable to recommend a vacuum routing that could lead to an unpredictable response on another system.

All speed density systems use the MAP as a fundamental means of calculating the fueling and spark advance for the system. The actual or raw MAP signal is often fraught with noise, overriding transients and fluctuations, etc so "raw" MAP is rarely used. Instead, sophisticated averaging software routines will "filter" the MAP signal based on development data, the sorts of periodic fluctions in MAP the specific system generates...i.e...number of cylinders, plenum volume, etc... to provde the right sort of MAP signal for the various ECM functions. One of the key factors in this calibration and treatment of the MAP signal is the volume in the hose leading to the MAP sensor. If you change this (by teeing in a large volume) you just threw out all the MAP signal processing development that was done for the system.

Yes, vacuum is low at WOT.....but.....MAP is high at WOT. Therefore the fact that there is zero vacuum has little relevence on the MAP reading at the sensor. BARO - Vacuum = MAP At WOT the MAP reading is basically the BARO ( minus some slight loss thru the air cleaner/induction system) with any inputs from the engine side of the system superimposed on it. MAP at WOT is far more active than at idle or heavily throttled areas.

BTW....MAP readings are WOT are far from steady. Take the snubber out of your "vacuum gauge" and see. Even then you can only see a tiny proportion of the noise. There is a lot of instantaneous noise on the raw MAP signal from pressure surges in the intake volume. This changes constantly with the barometric pressure in the local you are in and the rapidly changing RPM of the engine. Production systems are designed to "tune" this out of the MAP signal system. Just suppose.....you add a volume to the MAP signal line (with a tee'd in hose to the cruise) that suddenly (and inadvertently) adds a signficant tuning volume that will magnify certain frequency signals. You might never see this unless the engine dwells at that specific RPM for a period of time. This could easily drive the system rich or lean. This phenonenon is very prevalent on individual throttled systems like a motorcycle so you are recommending an install that is even more likely to cause a problem than on systems that problems have already been observed in the past!!!

The volume of area inside the throttled side of the system is relatively large. Pulling vacuum off of that general plenum area thru a separate port will have FAR less effect on the vacuum signal to the MAP sensor than putting it in parrallel. The small port at the plenum (the MAP signal ports, for instance) will act to isolate the effect of other ports due to it's being a restriction and resonance point or node for downstream resonances or "tuning" problems with the length of line leading to the MAP sensor.

Let me clearify one thing. I don't propose feeding the cruise off of just one of the service ports. It would be best to use all four of them in the same sort of arrangement the MAP sensor uses. Even better, would be to isolate each of the service ports with a one-way vacuum check valve in each port line and then tee the four isolated sources together as the feed for the cruise. That is the way my CC system is plumbed on my FJR and the way that I would recommend doing it. Plenty of vacuum supply with all four port accessed and each port is isolated by the use of four check valves. In reality, with the large vacuum reservoir and single check valve in the system it is probably fine to use just one service port as the only real disadvantage is a reduce vacuum signal...but with the reservoir in the system the reservoir alone will serve to provide cruise function from that vacuum supply with only slight replenishment.


In summary:

"As you may know, any extra volume in the intake track of any cylinder would increase total volume by the same amount, this will not change if it was hooked up to one or all four." True, but use all four service ports, not just one. Individual vacuum signals from different ports DO tend to be isolated from the other taps by the orifice effect at the plenum intrance. So...tapping off of the service ports WILL isolate the effect of the cruise from the MAP signal.

"Respectfully, I disagree that hooking into the service port of one is a better method. The small amounts of air moved is better shared by all 4 cylinders, not only for a smoother vacuum supply for the cruise unit, but less chance of an erratic MAP signal output." But, why would you introduce a potential tuning problem in the isolated feed to the MAP sensor when it is PROVEN to cause problems in many other cases. Cases you never even knew about because the manufacturer developed it out before you ever saw it.

"I think there is little or no risk of performance issues at wide open throttle." You think wrong. Due to the engine induced pertubations in the induction system MAP the chances of unintentially inducing an undesireable tuning effect in the MAP signal line is greater at WOT than any other time. Think of it like a helmholz resonator that you may create by teeing in an additional volume into the line. What frequency did you accent or attenuate. Don't know??? Better figure it out before saying nothing is going to happen.

"As far as I know, WOT……is WOT." WOT may be WOT but the signals and pressure pertubations induced into the intake plenum volume change constantly based on RPM of the engine. So...WOT at 3000 is not the same as WOT at 8000 when looking at MAP sensor tuning. Not even close.


"You wrote “If you look at OEM fuel injection systems it would be very very rare to find any accessory or vacuum feed plumbed in parallel with the MAP signal for just such a reason.”
I don’t know what you mean by this. The MAP sensors are always reading manifold vacuum and just about everything related to vacuum (cruise control, pcv system, fuel evap emission control, interior climate control……the list goes on) is in parallel with this sensor. When there’s a vacuum leak, depending on the size, vacuum will be reduced to everything………including MAP sensor."
What I mean is that no OEM will tee into the MAP signal line for accessories for the reasons elaborated upon above. No one does this. MAP signal lines are always discrete...for a reason. Thinking you have figured this all out and rationalizing that it is OK to tee into the MAP signal line is an error. Look at production systems and see for yourself. No one tees into the MAP line. As mentioned above, the discrete MAP signal IS isolated from the other influences by the orifice effect at the plenum entrance. Certainly a vacuum leak or other transient will affect the plenum volume and it will also affect the MAP signal accordingly. This is OK as long as the input affects the engine and the MAP is reacting to that engine change in vacuum. To put some unknown vacuum volume in parallel to the MAP signal line (by teeing into it) would introduce MAP errors via unwanted tuning that the engine would NOT see. BAD.


I really don't mean to belabor this but it is text book wrong to tee into the MAP line whether you believe it or not. If it is not causing you a problem then, fine, have at it. But do NOT recommend it to others and attempt to justify it.

Use the service vacuum ports for cruise control feed, do not tee into the MAP line.


Just a thought :).
 
Joined
Dec 3, 2008
Messages
17
Location
Melbourne Australia
Thanks Atxrider. I have been told I should remove the whole injector asembly before I try anything. This would be a **** of a job and I really want to avoid this at all costs. It looks like Pete did it while on the bike. If I use an impact driver I will not be square on the screw ie hitting on a slight angle. Whilst I know it would be better to be properly aligned to the screw, do impact driver work Ok if not square on? Sounds a silly question but **** it will save a lot of time if it works. I guess I could just give it a go and if it doesn't then I know I have to pull the lot off.
 
Joined
Apr 20, 2009
Messages
16
Location
austin
Hey Davo,

The screws holding my injector rail were pretty square, so I really couldn't tell you without knowing how dramatic the angle is. Alot of people wanted to avoid taking the injector rail off as well...but it did make everything so much easier...especially made getting to the service ports a snap to tap into.

Of course, this is all on my 06 FJR1300. I am not sure how it applies to a bandit. :brainsnap

Best of luck.
 
Joined
Apr 14, 2007
Messages
3,409
Location
Flower Mound
Thanks Atxrider. I have been told I should remove the whole injector asembly before I try anything. This would be a **** of a job and I really want to avoid this at all costs. It looks like Pete did it while on the bike. If I use an impact driver I will not be square on the screw ie hitting on a slight angle. Whilst I know it would be better to be properly aligned to the screw, do impact driver work Ok if not square on? Sounds a silly question but **** it will save a lot of time if it works. I guess I could just give it a go and if it doesn't then I know I have to pull the lot off.
Easy on the language fellas...it's a family board.
 
Joined
Dec 3, 2008
Messages
17
Location
Melbourne Australia
Sorry Greg. The word I used is not considered a swear word or inapppropriate word in Australia. I guess this is an issue when we cross over country boundaries.
 
Joined
Apr 14, 2007
Messages
3,409
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Flower Mound
Sorry Greg. The word I used is not considered a swear word or inapppropriate word in Australia. I guess this is an issue when we cross over country boundaries.
No worries, Davo. The filter grabs 'em most of the time. I just noticed two in one post and figured I'd remind everyone that we like to keep it calm on TWTex. We're glad to have you and a lot of your mates post here.
 
Joined
Dec 3, 2008
Messages
17
Location
Melbourne Australia
I am having a very frustrating time trying to get the CC to work. I have tested every switch with a voltmeter even disconected the brake switch. all to no avail. I have wired the CC unit directly to the battery to see if that helped but alas nothing when i go on the road. The only wire I have not checked is the blue wire to the Tach. Any body got an idea of what should be going through that wire? Also my bike is in KMS not Miles not sure if that has any effect in the pulse reading.

I have e-mailed Audiovox and got nothing. I have even tried with the bike on the centre stand and reving to 120KMS (about 70 MPH) but still nothing. The old one in my car you can hear it clicking when it pulls or releases the throttle cable. Is there something here that would tell me if I have a bad unit or not. Can I test the unit when I am not moving?On an old thread someone says there is a LED that blinks. If so where is it.

I am ready to through the unit out and put the cheap nasty Asian unit I have in. Only reason I didn't was because everybody raved about the audivox.Also an issue is that i like in Australia, so taking it somewhere is also an issue as audiovox is not sold in Australia.

Any help would be appreciated.
 
Joined
Apr 14, 2007
Messages
3,409
Location
Flower Mound
Davo,
Try posting the situation over in the the "General Bike Maintenance and Assistance" forum here. Not all of the wrenches come over to the Bandit forum. You'll get a few more eyes over there.
 
Joined
Jan 21, 2009
Messages
65
Location
North Carolina
Haven't been on the sight much for a while so I didn't see these post, but the cruise control worked better on my Bandit than the factory one on the HD Ultra problem is after about 1500 miles it quit working. I was cruising down I85 at about 75 mph and it just quit. I never could figure out what was wrong so I just took it all back off.:giveup:
 
Joined
Sep 16, 2008
Messages
1,565
Location
Tucker, GA
First Name
Joe
Haven't been on the sight much for a while so I didn't see these post, but the cruise control worked better on my Bandit than the factory one on the HD Ultra problem is after about 1500 miles it quit working. I was cruising down I85 at about 75 mph and it just quit. I never could figure out what was wrong so I just took it all back off.:giveup:
You took it off the HD right?
 
Joined
Dec 3, 2008
Messages
17
Location
Melbourne Australia
If you have a look in the "General Bike Maintenance and Assistance" thread you will see that I finally fixed the problem and also how to test that the unit is working as it should or not. Ie the LED at the back of the module blinks at the correct times etc.

Luckily I never gave up. Probably because I live in OZ and to send the unit back would have cost me nearly as much as I paid for it!
 
Joined
Dec 1, 2007
Messages
101
Location
SW VA
First Name
Russell
Last Name
Ford
Resurrecting an ancient forum. During my latest road trip I was wishing more than ever for cruise control. Options to cure the itch include: getting another, newer bike; buying the $700+ McCruise from Oz; or buying an Audiovox kit off eBay. Can anyone attest that these [NOS?] Audiovox kits will work on the 1250SA? Oh, by the way, they now cost double what 1250Pete paid back in '09.
For reference, I owned a Concours 14 that had an Audiovox installed by its previous owner. Worked great until you got up into higher speeds at higher elevations [90's @7-8000'].
 
Joined
Dec 1, 2007
Messages
101
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SW VA
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Russell
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Ford
Followed these two riders' instructions, and experienced most of the same teething problems along the way. In the end, I tapped into the o/g power lead for the rear brake switch for the switched 12v power, and instead of interfering with the vacuum lines to the IAP sensor #1, I inserted a brass nipple into the #1 intake pipe. Works great! Highly recommended, and anyone who needs help just reply here.
t110
 

jfink

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I don't have a bandit but on my KTM 990 Adventure I went with the Rostra (Audiovox) 250-1223, which is a servo motor instead of a vacuum system. There is a small difference in price but I just hate dealing with vacuum systems and the potential problems they can cause.
 
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Russell
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Ford
All the way to Tierra del Fuego and you haven't even ridden up to Nunavit? At a guess, you've already got CC on three of your newer touring rigs. What gauge of wire do you use to power the CC servo on your 990? Calls to mind a doctor friend who rode a BSA from England to Thailand when he got out of med school in 1936. He was still riding in the 70's - had a Kawa H2.
t110
 

jfink

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All the way to Tierra del Fuego and you haven't even ridden up to Nunavit? At a guess, you've already got CC on three of your newer touring rigs. What gauge of wire do you use to power the CC servo on your 990? Calls to mind a doctor friend who rode a BSA from England to Thailand when he got out of med school in 1936. He was still riding in the 70's - had a Kawa H2.
t110
HA! Yeah, I wanted to go to Nunavut, but air freight is expensive and it would have been rather wet and Hudson Bay is rather cold. Other than that there is no way in. There is a rumor that by riding up through Ontario to the edge of Hudson Bay and dipping the front tire into the water you have ridden to Nunavut ... I'm still working on that one. Anyway, the '04 Wing cruise control is built with the bike, but it is driven by a separate servo system. The '14 BMW, '17 SDGT and the '18 Wing are all Ride by Wire and essentially servo driven as well. But the cruise control uses the same servos that are operated by the throttle control. Which brings me to my '11 KTM 990 Adventure. We started with plans to ride every country in South, Central and North America. It didn't take long to realize, some sort of cruise control would be necessary.

After research we decided not to do the OZ bike cruise system out of Australia, we took a blind shot at the Rostra (Audiovox) 250-1223. It came with all the wire for all power and controls. Not sure of the gauge. It has two power circuits a 10 amp and 4 amp. The 10 amp circuit is for the servo and controller, the 4 amp is for the handlebar switch. I found matching connectors and made splitting harnesses to connect into my bike, so I didn't have to cut into the bikes harness. After quite a bit of frustration, we finally got it to work. Honestly one of the best mods we did for this long ride. About 27,000 miles and 7 months on a motorcycle. Without cruise control, it would have also included a massive hand cramp.

We are riding around Europe (1st visit, 2nd visit) now. I have my '04 stored over there. There is less need for cruise control in Europe as there isn't a straight rode anywhere! Nope, not a one. I will occasionally turn on the cruise on the Wing just to make sure it is working, but it isn't long lived.
 
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Riding all over must be a Texas thing: my doctor friend had roots in Limestone County and grew up in Dallas. I went through Conroe last year to avoid Houston rush hour - on the way back from a Hill Country recon trip [by car]. This year I hope to get back down that way and extend an HC ride out to Marfa.

Back to the topic: with a potential 14 amps of draw from the Rostra, do you find that your 990's charging system is compromised? Yours is rated at 450 watts, while my Bandit only produces 400, and the Ninja 1000 [potential replacement ride] puts out a measly 350. I would worry about the state of the battery if running cruise, heated gear, and extra lights all together.
 

jfink

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Riding all over Texas (and the rest of the world) is my thing, I am not sure it's a Texas thing. :) Those amperage ratings are the circuit ratings, I don't believe they are the actual draw. I have taken the unit completely apart in a misguided effort to separate the control board from the servo mechanism, for easier placement on the bike. A small servo motor and a small logic board. I don't notice any draw when it is active. And those draws would only be instantaneous not constant. If there is a difference in draw, the battery easily makes it up and will recharge while the unit is inactive. Basically the same way the started system works. I haven't seen any electrical issues with the battery or the stator. I have about 55,000 miles on the 990, changed to a Shorai about 6 years ago and it is still in the bike. For me, having a power draw issue is less problematic than creating a potential vacuum loss through a bad tap, bad hose(s) or failed unit. I am old enough to remember vacuum systems on cars I used to own. Not something I wanted to repeat. :) Your miles may vary.
 

jfink

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Riding all over must be a Texas thing: my doctor friend had roots in Limestone County and grew up in Dallas. I went through Conroe last year to avoid Houston rush hour - on the way back from a Hill Country recon trip [by car]. This year I hope to get back down that way and extend an HC ride out to Marfa.
If you do make it out here, hit me up. Based on my schedule, I might be interested in following you around. Marfa is quite cool if you can get there when the "lights" are out, but motorcycle mecca for Texas is the Three Sisters (Kerrville) area. Probably the best riding in Texas.
 
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Another vote for the electronic Rostra. I installed the vacum Audiovox on my FJR when I had it and it performed well but like jfink I remember the issues vacccum cc's caused in the 70's-90's. I installed the electronic Rostra on my 2009 C14. I sold that bike to my brother and the cc is still working as it should. I've another Rostra setting on the shelf for the ZX when I get time to do the install.
 
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