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Honda CRF300L and Rally and LS

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SilverBullet said:
Why not a CRF450L? What is special about the 300 Rally chassis?
Click to expand...
Excellent question.

What makes the Rally stand out for me against the likes of a CRF450L, KTM 500EXC, DRZ400S, Husky 701, KTM 690, XR650L, KLX300, WR250R, or DR650 - really any bike in the "dual sport" category or the "dirt-bike-with-blinkers" category - is its concession to pavement ability and comfort. The rally tower and front body plastic do a great job of protecting the rider from the wind, making for a significantly more comfortable and less fatiguing day of pavement.

I've added aftermarket windscreens to most of the above-mentioned bikes. I've installed Lynx fairings on some of the above-mentioned bikes. And, while I appreciated the increased wind protection offered by those solutions, they are far less effective than the factory-installed fairing on the Rally. (I suspect this is one of the reasons we are seeing more aftermarket rally towers available for bikes like the 690/701 - they are noticeably better than putting a windscreen on a stock shroud or installing a Lynx fairing.)

Wind protection is not the only factor that makes me prefer the Rally, but it's a major one. Overall, the combination of wind protection plus other factors makes the Rally a great choice for me and the way I ride.
- well spaced, wide-range 6 speed transmission
- smooth engine
- 200-mile stock fuel tank range
- relatively light weight
- reliability
- ease of servicing
- reasonably long service intervals
- 87 octane
- wide seat easily modified by seat builders if not comfortable enough stock
- sufficient electrical output for accessories
- Rally tower provides place to mount GPS
- built in accessory plug behind front shroud allows electrical accessories to be easily added
- very easy clutch pull
- decent headlight output
- stout enough subframe to load down for multi-day (or week, or month) trips
- great price

I don't think of the Rally so much as a "dual sport" bike (though that is what it is). To me it might best be compared to adventure bikes and, as such, it is the lightest, most dirt-capable of any adventure bike, hands down.

Let's say a rider has the goal of having 1 bike to do as much as possible. What we might call the Unicorn bike. One bike for pavement. The same bike for dirt roads. And single track. The same bike for touring, camping, etc. One bike to ride long paved distances to a far distant destination where they would then ride some challenging dirt. And then ride back home. This rider wants the bike to be as comfortable on pavement as any adventure bike and as capable in the dirt as a "dirt-bike-with-blinkers" such as the CRF450L.

We can all agree that no such bike exists. But the Rally, in my opinion, is the closest. (I don't yet know enough about the Kove 450 to compare it but that's why the Kove is gathering so much attention, in my opinion.) The Rally currently does the best job of bridging the gap between dirt bike and adventure bike. In the past, the KLR was, arguably, the closest such bike. It was for many years the lightest, most dirt-capable adventure bike. In my mind, the Rally has eclipsed the KLR and holds the title.

The only thing the Rally really lacks (that can't be easily fixed by the aftermarket) is power. Specifically, I think it needs more power so as to improve its highway cruising and passing speed. If Honda were to upgrade the engine so that you could cruise 70 with a burst of passing power on hand to quickly accelerate to 90, this bike would be the answer to many an adventure riders' prayers.

I don't imagine that Honda will spend the time, money, and effort to make all the necessary changes to convert the 450L into the unicorn bike. It would be much less effort and money just to upgrade the Rally than to redesign the 450L.
 
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Trail Boss said:
Excellent question.

What makes the Rally stand out for me against the likes of a CRF450L, KTM 500EXC, DRZ400S, Husky 701, KTM 690, XR650L, KLX300, WR250R, or DR650 - really any bike in the "dual sport" category or the "dirt-bike-with-blinkers" category - is its concession to pavement ability and comfort. The rally tower and front body plastic do a great job of protecting the rider from the wind, making for a significantly more comfortable and less fatiguing day of pavement.

I've added aftermarket windscreens to most of the above-mentioned bikes. I've installed Lynx fairings on some of the above-mentioned bikes. And, while I appreciated the increased wind protection offered by those solutions, they are far less effective than the factory-installed fairing on the Rally. (I suspect this is one of the reasons we are seeing more aftermarket rally towers available for bikes like the 690/701 - they are noticeably better than putting a windscreen on a stock shroud or installing a Lynx fairing.)

Wind protection is not the only factor that makes me prefer the Rally, but it's a major one. Overall, the combination of wind protection plus other factors makes the Rally a great choice for me and the way I ride.
- well spaced, wide-range 6 speed transmission
- smooth engine
- 200-mile stock fuel tank range
- relatively light weight
- reliability
- ease of servicing
- reasonably long service intervals
- 87 octane
- wide seat easily modified by seat builders if not comfortable enough stock
- sufficient electrical output for accessories
- Rally tower provides place to mount GPS
- built in accessory plug behind front shroud allows electrical accessories to be easily added
- very easy clutch pull
- decent headlight output
- stout enough subframe to load down for multi-day (or week, or month) trips
- great price

I don't think of the Rally so much as a "dual sport" bike (though that is what it is). To me it might best be compared to adventure bikes and, as such, it is the lightest, most dirt-capable of any adventure bike, hands down.

Let's say a rider has the goal of having 1 bike to do as much as possible. What we might call the Unicorn bike. One bike for pavement. The same bike for dirt roads. And single track. The same bike for touring, camping, etc. One bike to ride long paved distances to a far distant destination where they would then ride some challenging dirt. And then ride back home. This rider wants the bike to be as comfortable on pavement as any adventure bike and as capable in the dirt as a "dirt-bike-with-blinkers" such as the CRF450L. We can all agree that no such bike exists.

But the Rally, in my opinion, is the closest. (I don't yet know enough about the Kove 450 to compare it.) It currently does the best job of bridging the gap between dirt bike and adventure bike. In the past, the KLR was, arguably, the closest such bike. It was for many years the lightest, most dirt-capable adventure bike. In my mind, the Rally has eclipsed the KLR and holds the title.

The only thing the Rally really lacks (that can't be easily fixed by the aftermarket) is power. Specifically, I think it needs more power so as to improve its highway cruising and passing speed. If Honda were to upgrade the engine so that you could cruise 70 with a burst of passing power on hand to quickly accelerate to 90, this bike would be the answer to many an adventure riders' prayers.

I don't imagine that Honda will spend the time, money, and effort to make all the necessary changes to convert the 450L into the unicorn bike. It would be much less effort and money just to upgrade the Rally than to redesign the 450L.
Click to expand...
Great answer indeed...👍
Interesting points...
😎
 
Texasrider58 said:
So far, I am happy with the stock bike.
Click to expand...
David,

I understand perfectly. I've had my 300 Rally for almost 3 years and put a bit more than 11,000 miles on it. In that time the only performance mod I've made was to upgrade the suspension (hated the stock suspension). I have been reluctant to do any mods to the motor because I wasn't sure if the modest power improvement would be worth the cost. And I didn't want to give up running 87 octane fuel (premium octane fuel can be difficult to find in the remote areas of Mexico I like to ride).

Then Tony L let me ride his stage 1 modified 300L a few weeks ago. Being able to compare my stock bike back-to-back with his modified bike convinced me the mods would probably be worth it to me. Time will tell. The good thing is that if I don't like the mods, they aren't permanent. I can always go back to stock.
 
Trail Boss said:
Excellent question.

What makes the Rally stand out for me against the likes of a CRF450L, KTM 500EXC, DRZ400S, Husky 701, KTM 690, XR650L, KLX300, WR250R, or DR650 - really any bike in the "dual sport" category or the "dirt-bike-with-blinkers" category - is its concession to pavement ability and comfort. The rally tower and front body plastic do a great job of protecting the rider from the wind, making for a significantly more comfortable and less fatiguing day of pavement.

I've added aftermarket windscreens to most of the above-mentioned bikes. I've installed Lynx fairings on some of the above-mentioned bikes. And, while I appreciated the increased wind protection offered by those solutions, they are far less effective than the factory-installed fairing on the Rally. (I suspect this is one of the reasons we are seeing more aftermarket rally towers available for bikes like the 690/701 - they are noticeably better than putting a windscreen on a stock shroud or installing a Lynx fairing.)

Wind protection is not the only factor that makes me prefer the Rally, but it's a major one. Overall, the combination of wind protection plus other factors makes the Rally a great choice for me and the way I ride.
- well spaced, wide-range 6 speed transmission
- smooth engine
- 200-mile stock fuel tank range
- relatively light weight
- reliability
- ease of servicing
- reasonably long service intervals
- 87 octane
- wide seat easily modified by seat builders if not comfortable enough stock
- sufficient electrical output for accessories
- Rally tower provides place to mount GPS
- built in accessory plug behind front shroud allows electrical accessories to be easily added
- very easy clutch pull
- decent headlight output
- stout enough subframe to load down for multi-day (or week, or month) trips
- great price

I don't think of the Rally so much as a "dual sport" bike (though that is what it is). To me it might best be compared to adventure bikes and, as such, it is the lightest, most dirt-capable of any adventure bike, hands down.

Let's say a rider has the goal of having 1 bike to do as much as possible. What we might call the Unicorn bike. One bike for pavement. The same bike for dirt roads. And single track. The same bike for touring, camping, etc. One bike to ride long paved distances to a far distant destination where they would then ride some challenging dirt. And then ride back home. This rider wants the bike to be as comfortable on pavement as any adventure bike and as capable in the dirt as a "dirt-bike-with-blinkers" such as the CRF450L.

We can all agree that no such bike exists. But the Rally, in my opinion, is the closest. (I don't yet know enough about the Kove 450 to compare it but that's why the Kove is gathering so much attention, in my opinion.) The Rally currently does the best job of bridging the gap between dirt bike and adventure bike. In the past, the KLR was, arguably, the closest such bike. It was for many years the lightest, most dirt-capable adventure bike. In my mind, the Rally has eclipsed the KLR and holds the title.

The only thing the Rally really lacks (that can't be easily fixed by the aftermarket) is power. Specifically, I think it needs more power so as to improve its highway cruising and passing speed. If Honda were to upgrade the engine so that you could cruise 70 with a burst of passing power on hand to quickly accelerate to 90, this bike would be the answer to many an adventure riders' prayers.

I don't imagine that Honda will spend the time, money, and effort to make all the necessary changes to convert the 450L into the unicorn bike. It would be much less effort and money just to upgrade the Rally than to redesign the 450L.
Click to expand...

Ok makes sense, you just threw me with "chassis" term. It's really more than that, complete "package". And depending how far your quest for increased power goes you could lose 3-4 things off that list.
 
SilverBullet said:
Ok makes sense, you just threw me with "chassis" term. It's really more than that, complete "package". And depending how far your quest for increased power goes you could lose 3-4 things off that list.
Click to expand...

Yep. That's why I wish they'd make a 400+cc version with 40+HP. I don't care to lose the ability to run on regular gasoline. From what I've read about that 300, you're leaving a lot on the table if you don't go to premium.
 
SilverBullet said:
Ok makes sense, you just threw me with "chassis" term. It's really more than that, complete "package". And depending how far your quest for increased power goes you could lose 3-4 things off that list.
Click to expand...

As best as I can tell, none of the power mods, including upgrading to the big bore kit, result in any loss off the list other than 87-octane. The CBR300 cams and CBR air intake are Honda OEM parts and presumably don't affect reliability or have a different service interval. It's possible that reliability could be lower with the big bore kit, but it likely hasn't been around long enough to make that determination yet. It's also possible that the big bore kit might require shorter oil change and valve check intervals, but I haven't checked to see if that is the case. Of course, it's always possible that I'm wrong on all the above.

The main thing that has stopped me from upgrading in the past three years was having to give up the ability to run 87-octane. I agree with William - it appears to take premium octane to get any meaningful power improvement. I did ask the owner of 550 Performance if it there was a way to run the big bore kit with lower compression so as to continue to be able to use 87-octane. He told me he didn't know of a way, at least right now.

So, for now, it does seem that if someone wants more power, they have to sacrifice 87-octane. But maybe not any of the other things that make the Rally such a unique bike.
 
Trail Boss said:
As best as I can tell, none of the power mods, including upgrading to the big bore kit, result in any loss off the list other than 87-octane. The CBR300 cams and CBR air intake are Honda OEM parts and presumably don't affect reliability or have a different service interval. It's possible that reliability could be lower with the big bore kit, but it likely hasn't been around long enough to make that determination yet. It's also possible that the big bore kit might require shorter oil change and valve check intervals, but I haven't checked to see if that is the case. Of course, it's always possible that I'm wrong on all the above.

The main thing that has stopped me from upgrading in the past three years was having to give up the ability to run 87-octane. I agree with William - it appears to take premium octane to get any meaningful power improvement. I did ask the owner of 550 Performance if it there was a way to run the big bore kit with lower compression so as to continue to be able to use 87-octane. He told me he didn't know of a way, at least right now.

So, for now, it does seem that if someone wants more power, they have to sacrifice 87-octane. But maybe not any of the other things that make the Rally such a unique bike.
Click to expand...

How about mpg and impact to that 200 mile range? Usually better breathing means more fuel.
 
SilverBullet said:
How about mpg and impact to that 200 mile range? Usually better breathing means more fuel.
Click to expand...
Great point. I'll let you know the answer after testing my bike over the next few months. As a baseline - I average about 62 mpg on one of my typical hill country rides.
 
SilverBullet said:
How about mpg and impact to that 200 mile range? Usually better breathing means more fuel.
Click to expand...
First test today after installing a full Yoshimura RS-4 exhaust, 550 Performance 91 octane reflash, and an aftermarket Twin Air foam air filter. 550 Performance calls this the stage 1 upgrade and has a dyno graph indicating a 18.5% peak power and a 12.2% torque increase.

I don’t have a dyno, so the only way for me to judge is memory- comparing the newly modified bike to my experience with the stock bike over the past 11,000 miles. I will say the difference was noticeable and appreciated. The higher torque output enables the bike to accelerate quicker and to better hold speed when climbing. Fun and even a little bit exciting (I wouldn't describe the acceleration of the stock motor as "exciting".)

Surprisingly, my fuel mileage seems to have improved. I thought it might go down. Instead, I averaged 68 mpg on my first tank and 66 mpg on the second tank. On the same 215 mile loop I’ve ridden this bike on at least a dozen times and averaged around 62 mpg. Time will tell but for now I’m less concerned about increased fuel consumption.

The downside is the exhaust volume is much louder. I prefer the stealth mode of the stock exhaust but realize it’s a trade-off.

I will report back if anything changes. In the meantime, I like the increased power more than I dislike the louder exhaust.

IMG_8811-L.jpg
 
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Texasrider58 said:
@TrailBoss
Just curious, how much $$$ for the upgrades you added?
Click to expand...
$882
550 Performance reflash - $150
Yosh exhaust - $650
Twin Air foam air filter - $82

I expect that at some point in the future I will upgrade to stage 3 for an additional $939:
301cc Big Bore kit - $750
High flow airbox lid - $60
Velocity stack - $29
CBR cams - $100
 
Trail Boss said:
$882
550 Performance reflash - $150
Yosh exhaust - $650
Twin Air foam air filter - $82

I expect that at some point in the future I will upgrade to stage 3 for an additional $939:
301cc Big Bore kit - $750
High flow airbox lid - $60
Velocity stack - $29
CBR cams - $100
Click to expand...
Question... To lazy to research it...
Is the big bore kit bolt on or do the cases have to be machined for the cylinder spigot and piston skirt clearances for flywheel???
Do the cams need to be degreed in, ie
offset cam keys /clearance the head???
Cherry picked stock oem parts???
Inquiring minds...
😎
 
Pedro 2.0 said:
Question... To lazy to research it...
Is the big bore kit bolt on or do the cases have to be machined for the cylinder spigot and piston skirt clearances for flywheel???
Do the cams need to be degreed in, ie
offset cam keys /clearance the head???
Cherry picked stock oem parts???
Inquiring minds...
😎
Click to expand...
The big bore kit is a bolt on. New piston, rings, and cylinder.

The cams are OEM Honda cams from the CBR300. Bolt on addition.

As part of a stage 3 upgrade, results in 34% increase in horsepower and a 25% increase in torque.
- 31 horsepower v 23.5 hp stock
- 22 ft-lbs torque v 17.9 ft-lbs stock

Here's the comparison dyno info from 550 Performance.


Horsepower: Stock: 23.5.......... Stage 1: 27.87.......... Stage 3: 31
Torque:.......... Stock: 17.9........... Stage 1: 20.08.......... Stage 3: 22
 
Last edited:
Trail Boss said:
The big bore kit is a bolt on. New piston, rings, and cylinder.

The cams are OEM Honda cams from the CBR300. Bolt on addition.

As part of a stage 3 upgrade, results in 34% increase in horsepower and a 25% increase in torque.
- 31 horsepower v 23.5 hp stock
- 22 ft-lbs torque v 17.9 ft-lbs stock

Here's the comparison dyno info from 550 Performance.


Horsepower: Stock 23.5 Stage 1 27.87 Stage 3 31
Torque: Stock 17.9 Stage 1 20.08 Stage 3 22
Click to expand...
Thanks...
That sounds like a must have mod with respectable increases in horse power and torque numbers...
😎
 
Personally for your stated goals I'd stay with stage 1. Significant expenditure for roughly 3 more HP. And having to open up a perfectly good motor. Now if you keep the bike till a top-end is needed, then go for it if wanted. I plan on putting the 400cc Redline kit in my 450 if I keep to rebuild time. Little less on the trails I ride might be welcomed.
 
woodsguy said:
Personally for your stated goals I'd stay with stage 1. Significant expenditure for roughly 3 more HP. And having to open up a perfectly good motor. Now if you keep the bike till a top-end is needed, then go for it if wanted. I plan on putting the 400cc Redline kit in my 450 if I keep to rebuild time. Little less on the trails I ride might be welcomed.
Click to expand...

3 more horsepower at that level is a 10% increase. Not exactly insignificant, but definitely not as good of a return as the stage one mods.

What is he interested in seeing if an upgrade path that gets you more power without needing an obnoxious exhaust or premium gas.
 
William Wolfen said:
. Not exactly insignifican
Click to expand...
Granted but still a slow bike by most comparisons. More noise doesn't always mean faster. And now need premium, not sure it's a great tradeoff for intended purposes. And even though its a Honda, if do both mods, what is that 20-25% increase. Compared to what Honda engineers built might be stressing some part of drive line. Probably not but possible.
 
William Wolfen said:
What is he interested in seeing if an upgrade path that gets you more power without needing an obnoxious exhaust or premium gas.
Click to expand...
In the ideal world, I could upgrade it to a 350cc or so, run on regular octane, and not need a loud exhaust (I'm sure there is some quieter aftermarket exhaust that is a better trade-off between more noise / more power
 
woodsguy said:
Granted but still a slow bike by most comparisons. More noise doesn't always mean faster. And now need premium, not sure it's a great tradeoff for intended purposes. And even though its a Honda, if do both mods, what is that 20-25% increase. Compared to what Honda engineers built might be stressing some part of drive line. Probably not but possible.
Click to expand...
Yes, still slow. With the stage 3 upgrades it's putting out about as much power as a stock DRZ-400. Which isn't fast but people don't usually complain a DRZ is too slow.

It is also possible that a 25% increase in power might be too much for the engine or drivetrain. Hopefully not...
 
A slow dirtbike still outrun most cars, lol.
And it's a Honda, doubt it'll over stress it.
I've just been a guy that runs bikes stock, maybe a tall seat when needed.
 
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