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Honda DCT Discussion Thread

Jarrett

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I just can’t imagine voluntarily packing 30 pounds onto a bike that is even remotely performance oriented
When does that weight starting making a difference?

NC700X Manual = 470
NC700X DCT = 500
6.4% increase in weight

AT Manual = 500
AT DCT = 530
6% increase in weight

VFR Manual = 600
VFR DCT = 630
5% increase in weight

Does that really make a difference in these cases? 5-6% increase?

Or do you mean a much lighter race bike?

Seems like for dirt bikes, Rekluse is the answer.

Watching Jarrett's Campbell video I see where the DCT might help normal folks in technical situations just like a Recluse on a dirt bike.
It saved my newbie butt on the few steep rocky climbs on the K-Trail, I have no doubt. Had I ventured down there on a 500+ lb manual bike, I suspect there would have been a call from Rich at some point, "Jarrett stalled out going up a steep rocky section and his bike fell on him. We're waiting on the ambulance..."

But like you said, a Rekluse would have accomplished the same in that spot.
 
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When does that weight starting making a difference?



NC700X Manual = 470

NC700X DCT = 500

6.4% increase in weight



AT Manual = 500

AT DCT = 530

6% increase in weight



VFR Manual = 600

VFR DCT = 630

5% increase in weight



Does that really make a difference in these cases? 5-6% increase?



Or do you mean a much lighter race bike?



Seems like for dirt bikes, Rekluse is the answer.


I suppose that is where we diverge. While I probably would opt for a manual on any of those bikes, I’m also not likely to own any of those bikes due to their weight. When discussing adventure type bikes something like the Tiger 800 or new KTM Adventure 790 would be more up my alley (and I’d prefer if they left off some of the options on those to save weight). If you slapped a DCT on either of those they’d be approaching the weight of the Africa Twin.

Keep in mind that I’ve never ridden anything other than a bike with a “normal” transmission. I also think a person should ride whatever they’re comfortable with and makes them happy. I’m glad you’ve found a piece of technology that makes riding more enjoyable for you; I just don’t think it would be for me.

Regarding the Rekluse on a dirt bike: I’d like to try one. I really have no idea what it would be like, but people seem to swear by them. It seems like a pretty cool middle ground.
 

2WheelNut

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30 pounds / 5-6% isn't going to change the world but it will make a difference and especially off road and on a tougher trail for the same reason that most people take off the saddlebags and and shed any excess luggage when they hit a trail, it's always better to have less weight than more. (and especially if you drop the bike or lose traction going up hill and have to stop mid climb)

Having said that, 30 extra pounds on a 500 pound bike wouldn't be something that kept me from buying one and it really wouldn't matter at all on an 800 pound bike like a Goldwing so a 3-6% weight change isn't a show stopper for me.

But.... on a 420 pound KTM 790 Adventure where many are already talking about dropping the cat and stock exhaust and getting it close to 400, 30 pounds would be too much weight to add. It would only be about 8%....but still way too much. And it definitely would be too much on a 250 pound dirt bike like a CRF450 where it would be over 10%.

10% is still a relatively small percentage....but it would definitely matter. 5% matters as well....just maybe only half as much. (see what I did there :) )
 

Tourmeister

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30 pounds / 5-6% isn't going to change the world but it will make a difference and especially off road and on a tougher trail for the same reason that most people take off the saddlebags and and shed any excess luggage when they hit a trail, it's always better to have less weight than more. (and especially if you drop the bike or lose traction going up hill and have to stop mid climb)

Having said that, 30 extra pounds on a 500 pound bike wouldn't be something that kept me from buying one and it really wouldn't matter at all on an 800 pound bike like a Goldwing so a 3-6% weight change isn't a show stopper for me.

But.... on a 420 pound KTM 790 Adventure where many are already talking about dropping the cat and stock exhaust and getting it close to 400, 30 pounds would be too much weight to add. It would only be about 8%....but still way too much. And it definitely would be too much on a 250 pound dirt bike like a CRF450 where it would be over 10%.

10% is still a relatively small percentage....but it would definitely matter. 5% matters as well....just maybe only half as much. (see what I did there :) )
Totally agree. The weight really only matters when you start getting into rough technical terrain. On the pavement and most gravel/dirt roads, it will be a non-issue. On my KTM 530, 30 lbs makes a HUGE difference, even if carried low in saddle bags. However, I suspect for many riders, if 30 lbs were that critical, they could stand to shed some personal ballast, which would be weight up high on the bike :-P
 
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When does that weight starting making a difference?

NC700X Manual = 470
NC700X DCT = 500
6.4% increase in weight

AT Manual = 500
AT DCT = 530
6% increase in weight

VFR Manual = 600
VFR DCT = 630
5% increase in weight

Does that really make a difference in these cases? 5-6% increase?

Or do you mean a much lighter race bike?

Seems like for dirt bikes, Rekluse is the answer.



It saved my newbie butt on the few steep rocky climbs on the K-Trail, I have no doubt. Had I ventured down there on a 500+ lb manual bike, I suspect there would have been a call from Rich at some point, "Jarrett stalled out going up a steep rocky section and his bike fell on him. We're waiting on the ambulance..."

But like you said, a Rekluse would have accomplished the same in that spot.
From a xr650l to a klr is enough weight to drastically change my confidence and riding style.

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Ocho

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Just today I read a review of the Africa Twin Sports Adventure with DCT on ADV Moto and got me wanting to get one. Author recommends to get the DCT model over the regular one (and this was his first time on a DCT bike), he truly enjoyed it.

I don't see the point of bashing on DCT bikes (or people that prefer them). They don't make you a better or worse rider, it's just preference. By the way, electric bikes are coming, they'll be here and with them, clutch will be gone.
 
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I'm aware. It's a big difference. if I had to choose, and it's the exact same bike, I'll take the lighter model. 30lbs is alot to add to any bike.

I'm thinking purely for dual sport and off road.

If we still have new gas powered bikes in 30 years they will probably all be some form of auto/semi auto.

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2WheelNut

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However, I suspect for many riders, if 30 lbs were that critical, they could stand to shed some personal ballast, which would be weight up high on the bike :-P
Exactly... :)
I think the above posts were a bit tongue in cheek but it's worth saying the fact that weight on a riders body that can be shifted around at will is MUCH different than weight attached to the motorcycle as a practical application when riding.

A 250 pound rider on a 500 pound bike is going to have an advantage over a 200 pound rider on a 550 pound bike even though the total weight of both is 750.

Shedding weight off the body definitely helps in acceleration and deceleration just as much as shedding weight off the bike, but it doesn't really help when maneuvering the bike much at all. In fact, bigger riders sometimes have an advantage in throwing around a motorcycle from side to side that a smaller rider just isn't able to do. (only problem is they get way too tired too quickly doing it.)

So.... if you are drag racing....then shedding 30 pounds off the rider might be the same as shedding 30 pounds off the bike. But...in normal riding scenarios, it's not the same at all.
 

Tourmeister

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I think the above posts were a bit tongue in cheek but it's worth saying the fact that weight on a riders body that can be shifted around at will is MUCH different than weight attached to the motorcycle as a practical application when riding.

A 250 pound rider on a 500 pound bike is going to have an advantage over a 200 pound rider on a 550 pound bike even though the total weight of both is 750.

Shedding weight off the body definitely helps in acceleration and deceleration just as much as shedding weight off the bike, but it doesn't really help when maneuvering the bike much at all. In fact, bigger riders sometimes have an advantage in throwing around a motorcycle from side to side that a smaller rider just isn't able to do. (only problem is they get way too tired too quickly doing it.)

So.... if you are drag racing....then shedding 30 pounds off the rider might be the same as shedding 30 pounds off the bike. But...in normal riding scenarios, it's not the same at all.
It was totally tongue in cheek, hence the :-P

You are right, weight on the rider versus weight attached to the bike makes a BIG difference. I've seen some BIG boys toss around bikes in ways I could only hope to do!
 

woodsguy

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Exactly... :)
Not that I couldn't stand to lose weight, it's not the same to me. I can tell the difference of 30 pounds in off-road bikes, as that's about the difference in my 450 and 350. I'll take lighter all day long.

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Just for accuracy, it's not exactly 30 pounds. Here's two models, you can compare others. Don't know if this difference makes any impact for prospective buyers. Direct from Honda's specifications, however accurate they might be.

Africa Twin
Manual 506.8 lbs
DCT 530.0 lbs
Difference - 23.2 lbs

NC700X
Manual 474 lbs
DCT 500 lbs
Difference - 26 lbs
 
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Gotta go and mess up the discussion with facts and data...
I wonder if folks will be like 23.2 lbs? Ah, that's no big deal. But 30!! :)
That was kind of what I was thinking, where exactly is the deal breaker? Is it 25? 20?

I can't say how much I'd want it in the dirt, but 23 is well worth it for a street bike. Too many models of new Goldwing to figure out the weight difference but I'd happily take 30 pounds on a Goldwing to get DCT. Doesn't matter though, I can't even afford to look at Goldwings.
 
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That was kind of what I was thinking, where exactly is the deal breaker? Is it 25? 20?



I can't say how much I'd want it in the dirt, but 23 is well worth it for a street bike. Too many models of new Goldwing to figure out the weight difference but I'd happily take 30 pounds on a Goldwing to get DCT. Doesn't matter though, I can't even afford to look at Goldwings.


It’s not all about the weight for me...I just din’t think the whole idea is what I’d enjoy the most. On a Goldwing, though, I definitely get it. Everything else on the bike is designed to make riding as easy and comfortable as possible, so the DCT fits right in.
 

misterk

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I wonder if folks will be like 23.2 lbs? Ah, that's no big deal. But 30!! :)
If it was 23.3, i would never have purchased the silly DCT AT piggy:) I did lose 30 lbs of body fat a few years ago, but guess what? I still ride and crash the same!

I have put 20k miles on my AT since March, which gives me a total of 55k trouble free, and 54 pleasureable miles on DCT bikes. I have owned about 40 different motorcycles, the AT DCT (after my farkles) is the most pleasurable bike I have ever owned. However, that cr250 I had years ago sure was a close second:)

BTW: I do like the AT DCT system better than the Goldwing DCT system. The sport control has more options. The 2018 AT has a total of like 72 different configurations between Traction Control, engine braking, ABS and DCT modes.
 
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2WheelNut

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That was kind of what I was thinking, where exactly is the deal breaker? Is it 25? 20?

I can't say how much I'd want it in the dirt, but 23 is well worth it for a street bike. Too many models of new Goldwing to figure out the weight difference but I'd happily take 30 pounds on a Goldwing to get DCT. Doesn't matter though, I can't even afford to look at Goldwings.
23 pounds for the DCT on the Goldwing. 787 pounds for the 6 speed vs. 800 for the DCT.

Goldwing Tour (the one with the trunk) is 833 Manual and 856 DCT
 

Jarrett

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BTW: I do like the AT DCT system better than the Goldwing DCT system. The sport control has more options. The 2018 AT has a total of like 72 different configurations between Traction Control, engine braking, ABS and DCT modes.
I like the DCT on my AT better than my NC700X and VFR1200X as well. I suspect the newer versions are probably cooler.
 
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It’s not all about the weight for me...I just din’t think the whole idea is what I’d enjoy the most. On a Goldwing, though, I definitely get it. Everything else on the bike is designed to make riding as easy and comfortable as possible, so the DCT fits right in.
Here's an old video of me on my FJR with the inferior YCCS auto clutch working my way through traffic to flip around and head east on 635 and the tollway. Anymore I hate hate hate getting caught in traffic with a manual clutch.

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9no4Q_o8ouI"]AEinTraffic - YouTube[/ame]

It takes a lot of hate out of riding in traffic. Not all, not even close, but a lot. :rider:
 

bwdmax

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Anymore I hate hate hate getting caught in traffic with a manual clutch.

It takes a lot of hate out of riding in traffic. Not all, not even close, but a lot. :rider:
This is the only place I think I would want to have the DCT or similar system. I think it is all in what you get accustomed to. I can't imagine not shifting a motorcycle for me that is part of what I enjoy.

I have a Honda Foreman Utility ATV with ES (electric shift) it has thumb shift buttons to up or down shift and a centrifugal clutch. I have never liked this system and only own it because I bought it dirt cheap from a friend, if someone had the same model in same condition with the foot shift I would trade them in a heartbeat. I grew up riding motorcycles and at one point quad racing got big locally. I had some friends doing it so I jumped in and quickly discovered I hate a thumb throttle. I changed every sport/race quad I owned to twist throttle promptly. I had a lot of people say they could not ride with the twist, these were all people who started out on an ATV with thumb throttle. I can't imagine not having my thumb around the grip when the going gets tough, weather a thumb throttle or a thumb shift.

We are all creatures of habit I have a feeling that Jarrett likes the DCT because he has a background of competitive watercraft (jetski) which is "Gas and Go" much like the DCT. I'm not trying to put words in Jarrett's mouth or pass judgment on man or machine. I think it is a great time to be riding as technology continues to bring new things. I still don't own a bike with ABS or traction control, not because I don't want them. I just don't want to pay for them. I don't have a Rekluse for the same reason.

Jarrett would you agree with that?
 

Jarrett

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We are all creatures of habit I have a feeling that Jarrett likes the DCT because he has a background of competitive watercraft (jetski) which is "Gas and Go" much like the DCT. Jarrett would you agree with that?
That could certainly be part of it.

I drove a stick from 1985 to 1994, when I first started driving. Ever since then every vehicle I've owned was an automatic.

For the last 6 years, I've been heavily into riding bicycles and you have to shift like a mofo on them, 22 gears in most cases. Every gear, every ride as the motto goes. Shifting properly and quickly is important there as well. Miss a shift on a steep hill and it sucks to be you :)

Prior to that, I was riding jetskis. Jetskis don't have a transmission, so no shifting taking place at all. But the acceleration of my DCT VFR1200X is similar feeling to that of a racing jetski and possibly one of the reasons I enjoy it.
 

bwdmax

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Yeah I bet the 1200X is fun ride for sure.:rider: I have never heard of a disappointed owner. I remember the first one I saw at a dealer, it grabbed my attention as soon as I came in the door.:drool:
 

Jarrett

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I have owned about 40 different motorcycles, the AT DCT (after my farkles) is the most pleasurable bike I have ever owned.
I was thinking about this last night. That's a powerful statement.

So unlike me, you were used to riding manual bikes and now that you've owned a couple DCT bikes, you said you find it hard to buy a non-DCT bike because you like that tech so much. Pretty interesting.
 

Ocho

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I started reading about DCT on the newest Goldwings (yes, I'm interested). Seems not everyone is satisfied and some ride manual mode most of the time. Do you have that experience, Jarrett?
 

Jarrett

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I started reading about DCT on the newest Goldwings (yes, I'm interested). Seems not everyone is satisfied and some ride manual mode most of the time. Do you have that experience, Jarrett?
Keep in mind, this is still a relative newbie talking. Everyone rides for a different reason, it seems. For me, its just to be out there flying along enjoying the scenery with as few distractions as possible. For that, the DCT system is pretty nice, imo.

I personally can't imagine why someone would buy a DCT bike and only ride it in manual mode, but if that does it for them, then its all good. Everyone has their reason for riding.

I guess I could see dropping it into manual mode for a specific set of corners to feel more engaged, but I don't typically. I leave it in S3 (most aggressive) mode all the time, so it feels pretty engaged to me.

Personally, I only last about 5 minutes in manual mode before I put it back in auto and start focusing on just enjoying the ride again and not thinking about what button I have to push next. Maybe if I learn to ride better, I will come to appreciate manual mode more? I dunno.

And to be clear, you can also manually shift while in auto mode. If I'm coming up to a stop sign, I start downshifting before I hit the brakes. If coming up to a corner, I downshift before I get into it so I have more power on tap coming out the other side. If I'm waiting to pass a car, sometimes I'll downshift preemptively before the lane is clear, stuff like that. It's not all or nothing in auto mode.

It's cool to have all that flexibility though. Can pick and choose manual or auto every time you get on the bike. Whatever you feel like that day. Same with D and S modes. D mode is considerably different than S3 on my bikes. D will typically have me in 6th gear at around 30 mph, where S3 might have me in 3rd or 4th as I'm accelerating past 100 :)

Speaking of GW's, if I keep riding long enough, I suspect a DCT Goldwing will eventually find its way into my garage. That's a big investment though.
 
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Jarrett

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I'd be curious to hear how longer time DCT riders like MisterK, Simmons1 and Uncle Buck use theirs at this point.
 

UncleBuck

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I'd be curious to hear how longer time DCT riders like MisterK, Simmons1 and Uncle Buck use theirs at this point.
I push the "D/S" button twice to put it in sport mode since I prefer the way the bike shifts in sport mode 1 over regular "D" drive mode for most of my normal running around. If i feel I don't like the gear i'm in, it's easy enough to just tap the toggle up our down and it shifts immediately. But I don't have to do that very often. The computer does a pretty good job shifting, even when I want to really accelerate. Just twist the throttle and it goes. I use the toggle for engine braking mostly and it works great. If it's really curvy, I'll use sport II or sport III modes, less manual toggling that way. On the gravel roads and trails, I'll use sport II and put it in gravel mode and lower the traction control or disable it depending on the surface conditions.

I'm a big fan of the DCT. "Make everyday and adventure" :rider:
 

StromXTc

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Jarrett, check out motorweek this week, they showed the new edition goldwing. It looks soooo nice. 27k for dct I believe
 

2WheelNut

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Jarrett, check out motorweek this week, they showed the new edition goldwing. It looks soooo nice. 27k for dct I believe
In my experience, Honda or Russellville, Arkansas is where you want to buy any Honda if you are looking for a deal.

For Goldwings, they are about 2-3K below list and that is everything but Texas tax and registration so no freight / handling or other fees.

I think you can get a DCT Tour for about 24K OTD. If you call them, they'll quote you right over the phone and it will be that number when you arrive. They don't play games, they just sell a lot of bikes so they can afford thin margins.

My bet is they'll sell just about any Honda at 10% under list OTD for current year model and for 15% under list for new stock last year's model but call them to verify when you are ready and they'll give an actual number.
 

woodsguy

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In my experience, Honda or Russellville, Arkansas is where you want to buy any Honda if you are looking for a deal.

For Goldwings, they are about 2-3K below list and that is everything but Texas tax and registration so no freight / handling or other fees.

I think you can get a DCT Tour for about 24K OTD. If you call them, they'll quote you right over the phone and it will be that number when you arrive. They don't play games, they just sell a lot of bikes so they can afford thin margins.

My bet is they'll sell just about any Honda at 10% under list OTD for current year model and for 15% under list for new stock last year's model but call them to verify when you are ready and they'll give an actual number.
Good to know!
 

Jarrett

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Meh, if the local guys want my business, they'll advertise a competitive price and won't play games. I'd drive/fly to Arkansas to not play games.
That's 800 miles with a trailer + another trip during work hours to the local tax office after the fact. If the local dealer can get within a couple hundred dollars or so from their price, I'll save my time and wear and tear on my truck and trailer. So far in my experience, they will.
 

Jarrett

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Gotta take an Uber to airport, $100?

Looks like $242 to Ft.Smith and $271 to Little Rock for non stop flight

Then gotta figure out how to cover the 80 miles to Russellville. Rent a car? $50? Then drop off the rent car and catch a ride to the dealership?

Then speed time getting the bike and ride back from Arkansas at night or spend the night and ride back during daylight? Another 80 bones.

Or rent a truck and a trailer and drive the 800 miles while paying $200 in gas? Or borrow a truck and trailer and pay $200 in gas.

Don't forget taking off work and standing in line at the local tax office to find out you have the wrong docs and have to go home and have the dealership overnight you some missing signature or form, then take off work again and go back to the tax office.

OR pay a little more and get it all handled in an hour at your local dealership.
 
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+1 for Honda of Russellville. Saved $2401 on my AT (non-DCT; I like my clutch and shifting gears) over the best deal I could get in Houston. Paid for the trip, hotel, and a number of goodies.
 

misterk

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I'd be curious to hear how longer time DCT riders like MisterK, Simmons1 and Uncle Buck use theirs at this point.


Auto, s2 all the time. D if I am droning on the slab for 100s of miles, S3 in twisties, manual on a rocky or dirty hillclimb (1/10 of 1/2% of the time:))


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Gotta take an Uber to airport, $100?

Looks like $242 to Ft.Smith and $271 to Little Rock for non stop flight

Then gotta figure out how to cover the 80 miles to Russellville. Rent a car? $50? Then drop off the rent car and catch a ride to the dealership?

Then speed time getting the bike and ride back from Arkansas at night or spend the night and ride back during daylight? Another 80 bones.

Or rent a truck and a trailer and drive the 800 miles while paying $200 in gas? Or borrow a truck and trailer and pay $200 in gas.

Don't forget taking off work and standing in line at the local tax office to find out you have the wrong docs and have to go home and have the dealership overnight you some missing signature or form, then take off work again and go back to the tax office.

OR pay a little more and get it all handled in an hour at your local dealership.
Still would be worth it to not play games. I hate hate hate negotiating and playing games. If the local dealer wants my business they'll post a competitive price. As it happens, my GSX-S1000 was one of the best prices posted in the country, right here in town, thus they got my business.

I'll compare, wouldn't do it to save a couple hundred between listed prices, but I'm not taking Russleville's price in to a dealer advertising $2500 more to start the negotiation games. Russleville posting a better price means they want my business and the local places don't.
 
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