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How Harley killed themselves

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Jcstratt said:
They’re no longer your grandads Harley...

Badmouth them all you want, but you’ll need to find a new victim for your elitism elsewhere because in the end they’re not how you think they are. Not anymore anyway. It was an epiphany moment for me.
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I subscribed to Motorcycle Consumer News (may they rest in peace) for many years. For those not familiar with MCN, they were a motorcycle magazine along the lines of Consumer Reports - no advertising. This allowed them to test bikes without worrying that an advertiser would hurt them financially by pulling advertising if they wrote something negative about that manufacturer's motorcycle.

Back when I first started subscribing to MCN they said that if they wrote something good about Harley they were accused of being Harley apologists by non-Harley riders. If they wrote negative things about a Harley motorcycle, they were accused of being Harley-haters by Harley fans. Either way, somebody in their subscriber base was going to be unhappy. Knowing this, MCN attempted to honestly evaluate Harley motorcycles and let the chips fall where they would.

What I found even more interesting at the time was that MCN tested Harley motorcycles using different standards and methodology than other motorcycles. They said that Harleys were simply not very good back in the 90s and if held to the same standard as Japanese cruisers would have never been recommended by MCN. They also stated that Harley riders did not care that the bikes weren't very good. So MCN compared Harleys to other Harleys, not to other manufacturers competing models.

However, in the early 2000s, that changed. MCN stated that Harleys were finally matching the performance, build quality, and reliability of other motorcycle manufacturers and that going forward would be tested using the same methodology and standards as they used for all other bikes.

I didn't care either way (and still don't) since I'm not a cruiser or touring rider. I did find it very interesting though.
 
We had a 2002 XL883R Sportster on which we mounted our 1st sidecar. Yes, the Sportster was definitely an old-school with a design that was decades old that shook/vibrated, it was carburated, and it was heavy & under powered by 2002 standards. However, there were no complaints as to the build quality - it was a good motorcycle with minimal issues and adequate brakes (apply the front brake with hand, not fingers). And that heavy frame & tourquey V-Twin made a great sidecar tug, especially after gearing it down a little. The most glaring limitation of the 883 was the engine was not"flexible" as the Europeans describe; the "sweet spot" was limited to ±2800-3100 rpms, where the engine was reasonably smooth and surprisingly fuel efficient (±57mpg's at ±57mph as a two-wheeler). But it was difficult to maintain 70mph due to the vibration.
266310


The rig now resides in the DFW area with it's new owner.
 
[QUOTE="Jcstratt, post: 1....
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They are a sharp-looking bike.
 
Back in 2002 I had a Buell M2 Cyclone, loved the sound, the shaking, the in-your-face aggressiveness of the bike. it was a raw, nasty ,naked sport-bike. ........But she spent most of her time in the shop. It had a stalling issue, then had smoke poring out of the exhaust. I truly had a love / hate relationship with that bike. We finally gave up, and the Harley dealer in Conroe that was selling Kawasaki at the time got me onto a ZRX1200.
 
Yeah, but Zero is the real deal and they are considerably less as well.
 
Jcstratt said:
Badmouth them all you want, but you’ll need to find a new victim for your elitism elsewhere because in the end they’re not how you think they are. Not anymore anyway. It was an epiphany moment for me.
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Yep, folks get a notion, the notion becomes popular to hate something, the notion snowballs, and off we go.
I've never apologized for owning HD's, I'm not an HD snob or blind cult-like idiot, I just like them.
My 2000 has no issues and is easy to service. And is surprisingly nimble in the hills while being recliner comfy.

Beautiful choice. Get out there and enjoy it and nevermind the haters.
 
To be fair to the "haters"... for many,, they don't actually hate HD.

Personally, I would never buy a Kawasaki Vulcan, or a Suzuki Intruder, or a Yamaha V-Star, or an Indian Chieftain...so it's not Harley I don't like, but rather the style of bike that they produce.

I'm just not a fan of forward control cruisers.

The real problem for me is that HD just doesn't really make any bike I'd be interested in. Their ADV bike might be interesting at some point but not at present for me. I think it's pretty far behind its competition when a combinatiin of engine performance, weight, suspension and price are considered. Taking a chance on a new design that costs more, performs less and may or may not last just doesn't seem like a good move.
 
Agreed.

With HD's long and successful flat track pedigree I've always been disappointed how they did such a poor job of bringing bikes to market that reflected more of that higher performance style for those who might be interested. Instead they would toss out the occasional nod to that with some hot-rod Sportster version, and, there was Buell's bikes (who they foolishly parted ways with) that were exactly the things missing from creating a well-rounded lineup for The Motor Company.

Their primary customer base and the dealers who support them killed every attempt HD made to expand beyond being a mega fashion outlet, ... that also sells cruisers.

This isn't bashing, it is an observation.

I don't hate Harley, but I have had issues with a lot of people who ride their bikes (not all) who aggressively work toward being the lowest common denominator in showing any awareness of basic riding etiquette and safety, and who enthusiastically play the part of looking down their nose at any other rider who doesn't wear their costume.

The thing holding the company back is this mystique which has corralled them from ever being able to successfully take steps toward expansion of their brand without tremendous backlash from their customer-base and the dealer network that supports them.

They've been HOG-tied. ;-)
 
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Jcstratt said:
So if I want to ride 60 in a 75, that's my prerogative as is vice versa. If I want to cruise along those twisty roads and look at the pretty scenery and you want to blast those curves as fast as possible (or vice versa...I've done both many times), whose fun is more important than the other??? Neither, we just deal with it and move on.:sun::rider:
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This is a non issue as long as no one gets their panties in a bunch when they get passed.
 
2WheelNut said:
Their ADV bike might be interesting at some point but not at present for me. I think it's pretty far behind its competition when a combinatiin of engine performance, weight, suspension and price are considered.
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Have those specifications been announced yet?
 
92'Bearkat said:
Back in 2002 I had a Buell M2 Cyclone, loved the sound, the shaking, the in-your-face aggressiveness of the bike. it was a raw, nasty ,naked sport-bike. ........But she spent most of her time in the shop. It had a stalling issue, then had smoke poring out of the exhaust. I truly had a love / hate relationship with that bike. We finally gave up, and the Harley dealer in Conroe that was selling Kawasaki at the time got me onto a ZRX1200.
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It's unfortunate to happen in my favorite era of Buells, but the union shops who were machining the Sportster cases were really resentful of Buell being non-union. The engine cases during the labor disputes were machined with little care and many people fell victim to case halves that were not parallel to the crank axis and bearing bores that were too tight. I was one of those victims. It took a new set of case halves on my two X1s to rectify overheated bearings and melted output shaft seals that would allow oil to fill the primary, then the tranny and then oil the rear tire. One of many issues I can chronicle thanks to union shops throwing a temper tantrum.
 
pdef said:
Have those specifications been announced yet?
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I honestly don't know. I read some predictions of price and weight and they seemed to be along the upper end of the scale as compared to everything else....but it was still speculation.

In truth...I haven'tpaid too much attention. The ADV bike would have to be significantly better or cheaper for me to take a chance on it. I don't really know if HD is committed to this and I certainly wouldn't pay as much for it as a BMW GS. BMW has 20 years of trial, error and advancement that is in their model and I just trust it more.
 
Stop shoveling dirt, scooter and motorcycle popularity in the U.K. has shot up drasticly with the now requirement to wear a mask on public transport.
People signing up for safety class has doubled and sales are massive right now.
And the number one motorcycle of choice.
Harley Davidson!!!! Sportster and one of the other models.

https://www.autoevolution.com/news/...t-in-peak-demand-for-motorcycles-144858.html


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
 
Jcstratt said:
After many years of disdain for these poor excuses of a motorcycle and a lot of badmouthing them, I casually looked at one because the gf had a difficult time getting on/off my Vstrom 1000. One test ride later and I sent that Vstrom (my 2nd) packing and took that burnt orange Sport Glide home. Fit and finish is bar none. They’re no longer your grandads Harley. I had ridden several dynas and sporty’s in years past. They’re much improved now. Shake at idle? Nope. Incredibly hot in traffic on a summer day? Nope. Turning radius of a suburban? Almost. Have to blip throttle at stoplights to keep it from flaming out? Nope. Have to blip throttle at stoplights because the man riding it is a little boy at heart? Yep. Sucky, weak motor? Not hardly. In all honesty, it’s the easiest riding motorcycle I’ve ever ridden. Very well balanced, no issues making no feet down stops. It will roast the rear tire in first 3 gears. It’s unbelievably stable. It’s absolutely on rails at 80, literally a freight train and much smoother than you’d believe. It did take a good week of riding to become accustomed to forward controls.

Badmouth them all you want, but you’ll need to find a new victim for your elitism elsewhere because in the end they’re not how you think they are. Not anymore anyway. It was an epiphany moment for me.View attachment 266309
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Maybe I should rent one. The few times I've ridden an older Softail with forward controls, it was OK at lower speeds, but not a high speeds. Maybe the reach isn't as bad on these.
 
If I may chime in here, I bought my Ultra new in 2015. My first Harley was a 1996 Ultra 1340 Evo, very good engine. Bought it used with 33K in 09. I traded it on the new one in 015 and I put 40K on the 1996 model myself. My wife likes the comfort the Ultra provides and we occasionally do some 500 + mile days. Two issues I have had with new one, the radio messed up, Harley replaced, no questions and the other was the shifter shaft wore the splines down, happened on a trip with the TWT guys on the Red River Campaign ride. Gary fixed it to get me home, a 21.00 part. Week before last, I had the service done at Ft Worth Harley. I thought they would take a few days, they called the next day said it was ready. I had the normal service, new tires ( 24,500 on the original ones ) brake pads changed and fluid changed and added a top trunk rack. I have thought at times I should get something different ( less weight ) but everytime I ride it I tell myself to keep it. I love riding the bike and it is very comfortable machine. Since purchasing it, I have done nothing but ride it. So, it will stay. I know lately when I go to other dealers, very few looking at bikes. Everytime I stop at a Harley shop, usually quite a few people looking at bikes. Harley does have a following. I like the Strom and the DRZ and the Spyder also and ride the Strom quite a bit. I personally think Harley makes some good machines. Take a ride almost anywhere and keep count of the makes of bikes people are riding. Like I said they have a huge following. I have left the bike stock and see no reason to change anything. I like to do different kinds of riding and TWT has provided some good friends and a variety of riding with this group. I take a rubbing for being a part time pirate and it's all in fun. I think we should celebrate all types of riding and help our hobby to survive in the future. My son said he is getting a bike once he retires next year Chief - Navy submarines. He wants a Street Glide and I can't wait for this to happen. The people here have been awesome and at times I ride with semi- pirate groups ( not the hard core crowd ). I would leave a thought or two in closing, in riding with the semi - pirate riders, they are receptive ( no negative comments ) to the ADV style of riding and those kind of bikes and I think it is growing. I think Harley will survive just by observing the crowds at the dealer. In a world of global business, I think Harley is still thought of as an American icon.
 
I don't think Harley's are bad but **** if they don't all look the same. They are just accessorized differently.
I own a Harley product now, 2006 Buell Ulysses. I love this bike. It is so much fun to ride.
Parts are getting more scarce and more expensive, especially comparing them to my ol CB550 or my KLR650. $200 for some foot pegs!!

It's funny that Jcstratt went from a Vstrom to a Harley, my buddy is about 60 and he recently bought a Vstrom and now almost never rides his Harley. He's way more comfortable on the Strom.
 
Spigatelli said:
I own a Harley product now, 2006 Buell Ulysses. I love this bike. It is so much fun to ride.
Parts are getting more scarce and more expensive, especially comparing them to my ol CB550 or my KLR650. $200 for some foot pegs!!
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I'm always on the hunt for spares and I have pretty much all the critical and known problem spares on hand. But being an XB, you have many more Buell specific parts than my tube frame model does, so ebay should be on your weekly to do list for locating some critical spares before someone else snatches them. There's still plenty of drivetrain and basic chassis stuff you can get new at the stealer.
 
I've been watching Harley's site and now there are 2 750s. I've seen one and it looks nice. Need to try them both on. Haley's 750s seem as reasonably priced as the Japanese street models, at least on the internet.
 
TWTim said:
" It was the biker equivalent of the scene in Dead Poets Society when Neil's mom finds his body shortly after he commits" -
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SPOILER ALERT!!
 
MotoTex said:
Agreed.

With HD's long and successful flat track pedigree I've always been disappointed how they did such a poor job of bringing bikes to market that reflected more of that higher performance style for those who might be interested. Instead they would toss out the occasional nod to that with some hot-rod Sportster version, and, there was Buell's bikes (who they foolishly parted ways with) that were exactly the things missing from creating a well-rounded lineup for The Motor Company.

Their primary customer base and the dealers who support them killed every attempt HD made to expand beyond being a mega fashion outlet, ... that also sells cruisers.

This isn't bashing, it is an observation.

I don't hate Harley, but I have had issues with a lot of people who ride their bikes (not all) who aggressively work toward being the lowest common denominator in showing any awareness of basic riding etiquette and safety, and who enthusiastically play the part of looking down their nose at any other rider who doesn't wear their costume.

The thing holding the company back is this mystique which has corralled them from ever being able to successfully take steps toward expansion of their brand without tremendous backlash from their customer-base and the dealer network that supports them.

They've been HOG-tied. ;-)
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Well stated.
 
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