I'm a dummy... so explain threadlocker to me.

[Jeff S]

The idea is easy enough.. but I have questions about the details. Does the stuff dry like glue (in air) or like superglue (some chemical magic)? Do I need to rush once I put it on a thread? What about when torquing to a specific value ... I put on threadlocker, thread it hand tight, then tighten with a wrench, then with a torque wrench... Does the stuff harden or cure a bit in the time its threaded in, but before the final torque - so torquing 'breaks' some of the bond (taking more force, so potentially leaving the fastener under-torqued) and then defeating the purpose of the threadlocker in the first place?

While we're at it... what about anti-seize or lubricating on threads? How on earth is that supposed to stay in place... we just put something on it designed to make it easy to remove. Or, does this stuff just lower the twisting of the fastener itself as you torque it down. Yeah - that's an interesting concept - so in a long threaded fastener (cylinder head studs, etc) under some significant load - I guess the fastener probably twists a measurable amount across the length of the engaged threads?

So maybe this is two sets of questions: practical (do I need to rush, is starting and stoping, and starting when tightening OK - or does that "break the seal" and defeat the purpose, apply to the bolt or the nut) and then theoretical (bolt stretch, torsional deflection, thread surface friction, dis-similar metal interactions...

 

[charliez]

First thing, it dries with lack of air. That's why when you get a larger bottle, instead of the little small toothpaste looking tube, it's not full. You'll see a lot of reviews about it saying it's great but the battle wasn't full. That's intentional. When it is touching air, it won't dry. Called anaerobic adhesive.

and from a quick ai search abuot branded locktite

• You generally have 5–10 minutes to position and fully tighten the bolts before it starts setting up.
• It reaches a handling strength in about 10–20 minutes.
• About 50% strength in 1 hour.
• Full cure in 24 hours.

There are more brands out here besides locktite that do the same thing just as good.

For the anti-seize, it's generally in 2 colors, gold and silver. Which one you needs depends on the application. It is very fine metallic particles like copper, aluminum, nickel, or ceramic particles in a light grease. It prevents junk from getting its way into threads, especially moisture, and prevents the threads from welding or corroding themselves together. I've seen different heat levels for this too like for exhaust manifold bolts. I used regular copper type on my exhaust flange bolts before and it boiled out just few miles down the road. maybe I put too much, but they did come apart easy later. It is a lubricant so in important places it can affect torque specs.

 

[DFW_Warrior]

You just asked a whole bunch of interesting questions! LOL

Thread lockers for the most part are anaerobic. So in the presence of air/oxygen, they will remain liquid. Remove that air/oxygen and have it be in the presence of an active material that it is intended to be used on, and they will begin to set up. How long that takes, really depends on the specific product you are using, but that time can also be sped up or slowed down with the use of things like an activator. This is also very much needed when using a thread locker on a product that is not an active material for that particular thread locker.

I'll let other speak to anti-seize, but I did want to mention something along the same lines that you brought up. Lubricating threads is a super important thing when it comes to torque values and getting the correct torque. If something is designed for 50 ft.lbs of dry fastener torque and you use either a thread locker or anti-seize, then you most likely just over torqued that thing since both of those products act as a thread lubricant initially. Just something to keep in mind.

 

[gixxerjasen]

One additional thing to make your head hurt, there's more thread locker out there besides blue and red. (also, locktite's decision to put blue locktite in a red container infuriates me) there are different thread lockers for different conditions. I had to find this out using thread locker on an item that is subject to oily greasy conditions. You don't use normal thread locker, but a different formula. It's important to pay attention to the directions and what type is called for where you are installing it.

 

[DFW_Warrior]

One additional thing to make your head hurt, there's more thread locker out there besides blue and red. (also, locktite's decision to put blue locktite in a red container infuriates me) there are different thread lockers for different conditions. I had to find this out using thread locker on an item that is subject to oily greasy conditions. You don't use normal thread locker, but a different formula. It's important to pay attention to the directions and what type is called for where you are installing it.

Oh man, I've got 5-6 different types in the garage if you count different retaining fluids as well. Different metals, different conditions (hot/cold, clean/dirty), different gaps between the surfaces, and how much of a hold do you want for any of it. So many variables! LOL

 

[TNC]

LOL!...I've gotten into as many and maybe more spirited discussions over thread "lockers" and antiseize than oil threads. So with my chemical and engineering degree from Tractor Supply firmly in hand, I'll throw this out. Thread "lockers" like blue Loctite and others in that vein are generally classified as thread "lockers", while many "experts" will argue they are thread "dampers". The argument is that thread lockers only apply to compounds like stud mount chemicals. Those suckers can verge on the likeness of JB Weld in some cases...situations where you don't want that stud or fastener to move under "almost" all conditions...usually requiring heat or extreme methods to break them loose.

I won't claim to be the authority on who's right, but fasteners usually come loose by vibration and/or torsional movement...also throwing in the curve ball of heat variances between different metals. If you can "dampen" the interface between the nut and bolt threads, you highly reduce the effect of the vibration that might loosen that interface. Take my extreme level of scientific knowledge here however you want... ...but this is the definition that I tend to agree with between "locking" and "damping". Lots of interesting and some conflicting opinions on the semantics.

Now to throw in some heresy...as defined by some zealots...I'll state that antiseize is also a "damping" compound, though that was not its primary, intended design. Also some still believe that if you use antiseize on fasteners, those fasteners will fly off and put out the eyes of orphans and nuns. While I'm not claiming antiseize is appropriate for every application out there, it can be used in many, many applications with no issues while at the same time actually adding some vibration damping to reduce fastener loosening. Yes, is usually can affect torque values but mostly at a level that you can reduce the assigned torque value a small amount to compensate...rule of thumb about 20%. I'd also generally recommend the more common nickel based antiseize as I think it has a wider application range of use. Oh...and sorry about those nuns and orphans.

 

[Tracker]

can we combine this with the oil thread?

Seriously, thanks for the thoughtful informational responses.

 

[Jeff S]

Ahhh, 'cures in 24 hours' - that's exactly the missing tidbit that was hurting my brain. That plus the anaerobic bit makes sense. There's not a lotta air between the threads of a tightened fastener. I guess that stuff cures with very little volume change - doesn't "dry" and shrink, but just solidifies without contracting meaningfully. Neat stuff.

 

[gixxerjasen]

I'll state that antiseize is also a "damping" compound, though that was not its primary, intended design.

What was it's original design for then? Using a bb size amount of the product to magically and immediately coat every square inch of skin on a person?

 

[TNC]

What was it's original design for then? Using a bb size amount of the product to magically and immediately coat every square inch of skin on a person?

Prevents...or at least goes a long, long way to prevent galling, seizing, corrosion, rust, and other such nasties. But oh yeah!...I see your smiley face. Get a dab on your little finger, and the next thing you know you've ruined a whole wardrobe and need to bathe in a solvent to get clean.

 

[Valker]

View attachment 455401

 

[Cagiva 549]

Red locktite Always used when a hydraulic cylinder piston is attached to the cylinder rod , biggest I ever rebuilt was a 8 inch diameter cylinder , 4 inch nut and 3 inch diameter rod about 8 feet long the threads were cut down to 2 inch diameter , all approximate measurments since it was metric on a 90,000 pound Komatsu track hoe bad things will happen if that nut comes loose . Heat was required to loosen every one I ever built . in the locktite brand products all of the different compounds between thread locker or stud locker after lock and removable thread locker were all well labeled and most are on the shelf in my shop for whatever the project needs . I dont do things over , when it comes out of my shop its right the first time . Copper antiseze gets lots of use too . And anytime an exhaust manifold is touched nearly all bolts gaskets and clamps get doped up before assembly . And the next time I take it apart 10 years latter everything comes apart as it should .

 

[jgrm1]

“I’m a dummy,”‘is officially a series.

-Jeff

 

[IOM TT]

What a great bunch of answers! The good news is all seem to similar and none really contradictory.

I’ll throw in my five-cents (since pennies are no more).

To remove a thread-locked fastener, Red Lock Tite must be heated to around 300°F. It’s pretty amazing in that a fastener won’t move until the magic number is reached; it doesn’t start to move (even with a lot of force) until the proper temperature is reached.

Do not use any threadlocker that must be heated for removal if the application is near parts that cannot get hot.

Torquing is the stretching of the bolt. When a nut and a free-running bolt is involved, the nut should be held stationary while torque is applied to the bolt. This applies to lock nuts as well. Friction from locking threads affect the torque but that has been calculated by design engineering.

Design engineering also will have determined if lubrication is required and will have adjusted the torque.

Stretching and heat in particular applications take a toll on bolts. Some bolts are of one-time use. All bolts eventually get tired if removed, reused and retorqued but most of we forum-members won’t be taking the same thing apart that many times. I hope.

Anti seize compounds can cause electrolytic or dissimilar metal corrosion so it’s a good idea to do some research. Where a steel bolt is to be secured in a blind, threaded hole in aluminum following the maintenance manual is very important.

The point is: follow the book.

I taught jet engine (gas turbine) Operation, Maintenance and Troubleshooting for 30-years. Following the maintenance manual was the law-literally, one could be prosecuted if procedures were not followed.

 

[Tracker]

What a great bunch of answers! The good news is all seem to similar and none really contradictory.

I’ll throw in my five-cents (since pennies are no more).

To remove a thread-locked fastener, Red Lock Tite must be heated to around 300°F. It’s pretty amazing in that a fastener won’t move until the magic number is reached; it doesn’t start to move (even with a lot of force) until the proper temperature is reached.

Do not use any threadlocker that must be heated for removal if the application is near parts that cannot get hot.

Torquing is the stretching of the bolt. When a nut and a free-running bolt is involved, the nut should be held stationary while torque is applied to the bolt. This applies to lock nuts as well. Friction from locking threads affect the torque but that has been calculated by design engineering.

Design engineering also will have determined if lubrication is required and will have adjusted the torque.

Stretching and heat in particular applications take a toll on bolts. Some bolts are of one-time use. All bolts eventually get tired if removed, reused and retorqued but most of we forum-members won’t be taking the same thing apart that many times. I hope.

Anti seize compounds can cause electrolytic or dissimilar metal corrosion so it’s a good idea to do some research. Where a steel bolt is to be secured in a blind, threaded hole in aluminum following the maintenance manual is very important.

The point is: follow the book.

I taught jet engine (gas turbine) Operation, Maintenance and Troubleshooting for 30-years. Following the maintenance manual was the law-literally, one could be prosecuted if procedures were not followed.

interesting on torquing the bolt and holding the nut stationary; never heard that. Is a bolt ever free-running unless it has a lubed washer under the head?

 

[TNC]

What a great bunch of answers! The good news is all seem to similar and none really contradictory.

I’ll throw in my five-cents (since pennies are no more).

To remove a thread-locked fastener, Red Lock Tite must be heated to around 300°F. It’s pretty amazing in that a fastener won’t move until the magic number is reached; it doesn’t start to move (even with a lot of force) until the proper temperature is reached.

Do not use any threadlocker that must be heated for removal if the application is near parts that cannot get hot.

Torquing is the stretching of the bolt. When a nut and a free-running bolt is involved, the nut should be held stationary while torque is applied to the bolt. This applies to lock nuts as well. Friction from locking threads affect the torque but that has been calculated by design engineering.

Design engineering also will have determined if lubrication is required and will have adjusted the torque.

Stretching and heat in particular applications take a toll on bolts. Some bolts are of one-time use. All bolts eventually get tired if removed, reused and retorqued but most of we forum-members won’t be taking the same thing apart that many times. I hope.

Anti seize compounds can cause electrolytic or dissimilar metal corrosion so it’s a good idea to do some research. Where a steel bolt is to be secured in a blind, threaded hole in aluminum following the maintenance manual is very important.

The point is: follow the book.

I taught jet engine (gas turbine) Operation, Maintenance and Troubleshooting for 30-years. Following the maintenance manual was the law-literally, one could be prosecuted if procedures were not followed.

I appreciate your info on the antiseize issue. I might disagree a little bit with the general statement "antiseize compounds can cause electrolytic or dissimilar metal corrosion". Man oh man the huge, broad category of fasteners and such where antiseize might be applied would clearly show that no one size fits all. However, I recommended nickel based antiseize as I think research shows it to have a broader, safer application in most cases while also having extreme temperature qualities...and protection in dissimilar metals applications. Some may not be aware that when it comes to introducing corrosion and electrolytic issues, copper antiseize even has the warning about use in aluminum and titianium applications due to galvanic reaction.

IOM, you mention jet engine applications and such, and I would not dare to venture into giving any advice for those more critical venues. I think most of us in the application use in most automotive and motorcycle situations will have few if any negative issues using nickel based antiseize. However, again, not trying to make absolutes for every situation out there. I will say from a personal use perspective, I started using nickel based antiseize when I was 16 when I installed a new set of spark plugs in my Chevy 409 in my first car, a '57 Chevy. I've been using it ever since even in some applications where it wasn't recommended, though granted not in life threatening situations...LOL!

 

[Jeff S]

I can't see how torquing from the nut or bolt side would affect the process - at least with a flange nut that's essentially the same profile at the bolt head.... But it makes sense to just make that a rule and do it that way every time... just for repeatability.

 

[IOM TT]

.

Note “friction drag”. We called that run on torque. Nuts were discarded if outside given limits. BMW makes self locking screws for fairing fastening. They work well but cost way too much to use everywhere.

 

[TNC]

.

Note “friction drag”. We called that run on torque. Nuts were discarded if outside given limits. BMW makes self locking screws for fairing fastening. They work well but cost way too much to use everywhere.

Hmmm...I think I kind of get some of that. And in a nut/bolt situation going through a flange, plate, component, the deeper the hole the bolt is going through, the more likelihood of the bolt contacting the sides of the hole inducting wear and maybe even affecting the torque value. The bolt would tilt a little unless it was a press fit, and in that case it would be a stud. Am I getting any of that right in what you quoted there? Interesting. I'm still thinking in "most" of our fastener/component combinations we hack mechanics get our hands on, this is probably not a huge issue as long as proper torque is applied. I do admit to getting pretty anal about things like head bolts, rotating assembly fasteners, and such things. They may not be at that jet engine level of hypervigilance, but it's danged important.

 

[Cagiva 549]

Unless its a caged nut . No one rule covers everything ever , and iron to iron always gets copper antisize , I probably have ten one pound cans of caterpillar branded copper antisize on the shelf and some may be as old as 30 + years . If it old and dried up I will add some oil , stir it around good and keep on useing it . I have even cut the top off a can to scrape every little bit out of it . Caterpillar quit selling the branded stuff years ago and Ihave never found a replacment for it that is as good . Personally I dont like the silver and only time it gets used is on aluminum .

 

[TNC]

Unless its a caged nut . No one rule covers everything ever , and iron to iron always gets copper antisize , I probably have ten one pound cans of caterpillar branded copper antisize on the shelf and some may be as old as 30 + years . If it old and dried up I will add some oil , stir it around good and keep on useing it . I have even cut the top off a can to scrape every little bit out of it . Caterpillar quit selling the branded stuff years ago and Ihave never found a replacment for it that is as good . Personally I dont like the silver and only time it gets used is on aluminum .

Yeah, but David, that's just 'cause you're cheap and have a lifetime supply of the inferior copper stuff on hand.

I kid...

However, like you, I've done that deal of adding another compound to a can of dry antiseize. I use some kind of black, moly liquid stuff to thin it out. Probably creates some kind of toxic chemical compound by doing this, but I still have all 7 of my fingers, so I guess it's alright.

 

[Cagiva 549]

Back in the day I built a lot of ford FE truck motors from 330 to 428 and with liberal doses of that caterpillar copper antisize I could come back 10 years latter and remove exhaust manifold bolts with ease , also used it on the heat shields and gaskets with zero failures , ford taper seat spark plugs got it too with the same good results . Only aluminum head motors I have ever worked on were my bikes and its probably been 20 years since I put a plug in one , iradium plugs last forever .

 

[FE_Rex]

Those upper exhaust manifold bolts on junkyard FE heads were the worst due to the through-hole Got to the point I’d heat’em up before I even tried to take’em off. The side bolts on the CJ and GT heads were just as bad.

It was funny cause the guys who used lock washers and lock-tite were always having to tighten their header bolts. I used never-seize only and after few heat-cycles / bolt tightenings my headers stayed tight

FE engine is base of the user name - obsolete dynosore motors

 

[IOM TT]

“ I used never-seize only and after few heat-cycles / bolt tightenings my headers stayed tight”
FE, your heat cycles/retorquing reminds me of a fiasco we had with heat cycles and multiple retorquings. Your heat/tighten, heat/tighten works because engineers got it right.

We had a new, more powerful version of a bread and butter land based gas turbine that produced about 30,000 horsepower. It got a new more powerful compressor and with a few other tweaks could now produce about 35,000 hp. It ran hotter than the original and design engineers beefed up the case to case connection to the power turbine. The power turbine extracts horsepower from the hot gasses. The gasses being hotter in the new design meant there would be more expansion during a heat cycle. The cases would expand more. So their mating flanges were beefed up. But the 90 to 100 3/8” bolts in the circular, case to case flange remained unchanged from the old design.

After the initial run, a diligent, customer mechanic checked the engine and found all these bolts loose. He assumed they weren’t properly torqued at the factory. So he retorqued them. The engine was now in service. Some land based engines will be run for six months continuous. I don’t remember how long this particular engine ran but on shutdown the bolts were loose again. They were retorqued again. I believe this happened one more time. The next time the engine got to temperature one bolt broke and all the rest followed. This phenomenon is called “unzipping”.

The engine was toast. Design engineers hadn’t counted on the bolts becoming “plastic” in the hotter environment. When a fastener reaches plastic it will not return to its original shape; it is no longer “elastic” which is what proper torquing does to a fastener-it makes it a spring, continuously pulling parts together. The bolts kept getting thinner and thinner until they could not resist the axial pull.