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My H-D Pan America Nightmare

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I filed a lemon law complaint with TXDMV and dropped it back off at Mancuso on Saturday afternoon to get them to look at the engine codes. I want a record of the engine code it threw when it stalled out. I think it has something to do with cutting throttle and shifting with the clutch open interacting with the quick shifter's programming to cut throttle that is causing the ECU to cut fuel or spark to below idle making it stall out even at highway speeds. I told the gentleman at the service desk I am I sure I am going to die stupidly one day, but it will not be on this Pan America.

Never getting back on the Pan America - too dangerous.
 
Finally got a print out of the error codes from the stalling. Or rather not stalling, but turning itself off randomly...?
 

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What a terrible experience . Wish I had known you were at wild west on the Demo day as four of us were there to ride also but decided to just hang out , and then go ride our own BMW's . David , Chuck , and I all enjoy our 1250's a great deal . David say's his 2023 GS1250 Trophy is the best motorcycle he has ever owned .
I'll 2nd that my 2023 R1250RS is outstanding . Buying the newer 1300GS 1st year might be tricky though . David kicked the can around about trading his 23 for a new 1300 . I suggested waiting the 1st year out because the last year of the 1250's are solid and proven .

Real sorry to read your story of misfortune .
 
Bryan L said:
David kicked the can around about trading his 23 for a new 1300 . I suggested waiting the 1st year out because the last year of the 1250's are solid and proven .
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The trick is to get the last year of an outgoing model. That way you get the one with all the bugs worked out! Sounds insane to me to trade that last year of the model for a first year model!
 
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Good Luck. and to think this could have been avoided if HD would just would have made it right to begin with. New bike or total refund. Now this has went across this forum plus everybody we all know. I wouldn't touch a Pan American now if they offered it at half off.
 
And when you get the honest story from other PA owners, you see recurring problems that would preclude leaving town on one.
 
This makes me sad. I'm not a HD rider( have been a long time ago.) was hoping this would be a home run for the MOCO.
 
I think it is time for HD to make a new commercial for the Pan Am. Instead of showing some guy riding one thru fantastic scenery they should show him sitting on the side of the road, sitting in the dealership service department, sitting in his lawyers office. Well you get the picture.
 
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I had higher hopes for H-D's future. The M8 engine is only going to get them so many more years regarding meeting emissions standards before they need to go liquid cooled on all bikes.

The Sportster S also uses the 1250 Max Rev engine and the other Sportsters use the 975cc version. I wonder if the 975 bikes have the same issues. Engine-wise, other than different pipe diameter, crank, pistons and headwork/valve sizes, there's not much else that changes but the electronics package might and the bike's overall design and less features may make a difference.

Still, they need to clean sheet the design to get them on track for the next generation of bikes. As an engineer, I've been dissatisfied with former employers wanting me to nibble at design improvements incrementally in order to retain backwards compatibility. All that did was continually carry over old problems until everything was gone through but there were still limitations of the base design that I was boxed into that prevented me from making real improvements or making way for new ideas. I was talking with a former coworker and friend a couple weeks ago that's still at the old place and who took over the product line I was in charge of. I begged upper management and the project coordinators to allow me to make a new design of a product that will address every single short coming, known perpetual warranty issue that I was never allowed to revise, maintenance improvements and customer feature desire instead of trying to jimmy-rig an aged design that didn't take any of the new ideas in mind and keeping it backwards compatible. It became an impossible task. And in 9 years since I've been gone, the product evolved from version 1.3 to 1.4 which was only minor tweaks for reliability but no marked performance improvement at all. All the same design limitations from the original prototype are still there with no room for new ideas. Clean sheet designs get rid of the limitations, even if the clean sheet design is simply just taking what's current and just making each part slightly better, then calling it something new with new part numbers and releasing it in one fell swoop.

Only Ural gets to make 2 or 3 parts revisions each model year for the same engine they've had for the past 25 years. It's getting better, slowly. But how long can they keep it up.
 
X1Glider said:
I had higher hopes for H-D's future. The M8 engine is only going to get them so many more years regarding meeting emissions standards before they need to go liquid cooled on all bikes.

The Sportster S also uses the 1250 Max Rev engine and the other Sportsters use the 975cc version. I wonder if the 975 bikes have the same issues. Engine-wise, other than different pipe diameter, crank, pistons and headwork/valve sizes, there's not much else that changes but the electronics package might and the bike's overall design and less features may make a difference.

Still, they need to clean sheet the design to get them on track for the next generation of bikes. As an engineer, I've been dissatisfied with former employers wanting me to nibble at design improvements incrementally in order to retain backwards compatibility. All that did was continually carry over old problems until everything was gone through but there were still limitations of the base design that I was boxed into that prevented me from making real improvements or making way for new ideas. I was talking with a former coworker and friend a couple weeks ago that's still at the old place and who took over the product line I was in charge of. I begged upper management and the project coordinators to allow me to make a new design of a product that will address every single short coming, known perpetual warranty issue that I was never allowed to revise, maintenance improvements and customer feature desire instead of trying to jimmy-rig an aged design that didn't take any of the new ideas in mind and keeping it backwards compatible. It became an impossible task. And in 9 years since I've been gone, the product evolved from version 1.3 to 1.4 which was only minor tweaks for reliability but no marked performance improvement at all. All the same design limitations from the original prototype are still there with no room for new ideas. Clean sheet designs get rid of the limitations, even if the clean sheet design is simply just taking what's current and just making each part slightly better, then calling it something new with new part numbers and releasing it in one fell swoop.

Only Ural gets to make 2 or 3 parts revisions each model year for the same engine they've had for the past 25 years. It's getting better, slowly. But how long can they keep it up.
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I don't believe all the issues are design related as some people seem to have purchased lemons, and other people while still having teething problems aren't having the same type catastrophic issues with their bikes. I come from engineering/quality background and have the feeling that they are having a lot manufacturing issues causing many of the mechanical failures. These engines/bikes are the most sophisticated bikes they have ever built. Hopefully they will get it figured out. YMMV
 
Simmons1 said:
I don't believe all the issues are design related as some people seem to have purchased lemons, and other people while still having teething problems aren't having the same type catastrophic issues with their bikes. I come from engineering/quality background and have the feeling that they are having a lot manufacturing issues causing many of the mechanical failures. These engines/bikes are the most sophisticated bikes they have ever built. Hopefully they will get it figured out. YMMV
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Back in 1998, H-D learned a lot about sorting out quality problems with the introduction of the Twin Cam 88 in 1999. The prior Evolution engine cases, for example, required 34 machine setups. All that bolting down and repositioning and bolting down again and again caused a lot of part distortion and positioning errors of features since they were not using custom fixtures for each operation. That changed with the TC88 and they reduced operations to 7, including putting both case halves together for final machine operations, by using custom fixtures and a lot more multi axis machines so they could leave parts in place longer for better accuracy and significant cost reduction. The same approach applied to the heads (8 to 4 and no handwork), tranny case (5 to 4) and primary case (4 to 3). The Twin Cams no longer marked their territory everywhere they parked.

All the electrical problems with the Rev Max 1250 could be chalked up to suppliers in may peoples' eyes. H-D uses tech, not makes it. But the integration and programming are another story. I generally never see failed sensors in anything. So I have to put the blame there. Samsung makes some great cell phones but mine seems to have brain farts several times a day. It gets confused, shuts down and reboots. And they probably have 1000 programmers on staff. I wouldn't expect H-D to have their experience. H-D outsourced their original Revolution and Twin Cam FI modules but just did the mapping, which is simple enough that garage mechanics could do it. I did a lot of it as well.

Like one of the Buells I had, the basic electronics at first glance seemed to be problematic but it was the mechanical package causing issues and the electronics were acting as it should. That bike cost over $21k in warranty repairs over the course of 10 extended stay before one tech discovered the simple problem, a tight bearing fit that made the bearing so hot it melted the seal between the engine and primary case, dumping oil into the primary, the tranny and out the vent and onto the rear tire. As an engine made in the York, PA plant by union workers for non-union Buell, plus being the older evolution style, between disdain for a non-union bike and not having the progress the Twin Cam saw, it's no surprise that the case haves were out of spec and caused the rest of the bike to go haywaire.
 
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I have seen the workaround jury rigging in new machinery for the last 30 years in construction equipment , every new revised machiene we bought ended up having more issue than the previous model but rather than abandon a flawed design issue they would keep adding more plastic to try to make it function . A backhoe with a flawed exhaust system , compleat replacement several times under warranty when the warranty expired and it broke again the whole thing went in the scrap barrel and was replaced with over the counter parts i could buy open market , one stainless flex tube was custom fabricated to tie everything back together . 15 years latter my system is still functioning , one stack had to be replaced when the operator crushed it by running into a tree . That also broke the plastic cab roof but it was a straight piece of 2 1/2 pipe sourced from a local parts house . When everything went computorized with the same failure rate I let them have them , thats above my pay grade to try to fix . I could , if I were yank the computer motor out and scrap it and replace it with a mechanical motor . Plastic coolant systems have cost more motors in the last 15 years than all prior failure causes added together , every engine that failed was because of a broken plastic cooling system part . Completely uncalled for failures , including replacing a 900 dollar radiator because the plastic fan slung a blade and trashed the radiator core . My patience was stretched to the limit till I hung it up and said no more . Im much happier fixing 50 year old trucks and tractors , it seems they stay fixed when done right . Forgot to add , that tractor the kept breaking the muffler off the top of the motor had the muffler mounted right next to the plastic hydraulic resivoir under the hood so when it broke it would start melting the oil tank . Good thing we had a good operator on it because he would call me when it broke so we never melted it down to a pile of ashes .
 
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