Did mounting them on the side of the engine also help surging?
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Surging Cured
- Thread starter sproggy
- Start date
Someone asked (ages ago) for a picture of the TBs without the secondary butterflies. As they had to come out again today to adjust the TPS here's the picture:
That looks nice! I'm really wanting mine out, but so worried it would void the SEP warranty. I was checking out the service manual last night, and it specifically says the primary (duh!) and secondary flies must NEVER be removed.
I can't take it much longer, I KNOW I'll remove 'em!
Roy
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That looks nice! I'm really wanting mine out, but so worried it would void the SEP warranty. I was checking out the service manual last night, and it specifically says the primary (duh!) and secondary flies must NEVER be removed.
I can't take it much longer, I KNOW I'll remove 'em!
The service manual also says you will never have to touch the TPS screw either, I know differently.
The service manual also says you will never have to touch the TPS screw either, I know differently.
Yeah Roy, I understand, BUT, it would offer an incredible opportunity for them to laugh in my face, if I were to go in with major engine probs in the future!
(but I want 'em out SO bad!)
Having gone through 3 tankfuls since I took the secondaries out (on exactly the same commute that I always do) the fuel consumption seems to be slightly (around 3%) improved. But that could be down to lighter traffic since the schools stopped for summer.
I think it's safe to say that it's no worse, possibly slightly better.
This mod intrigues me quite a bit , but exactly how abrupt does it make the throttle responce ? I have to drive on gravel roads quite a bit and I'd like to avoid the rear tire spinning out from under me at a twitch of the wrist , if you get my drift.
The secondaries are put there to stop a twitch of the wrist spinning up the rear (IMO) - they tame/deaden the throttle response. My feeling is that without them half a twitch would have the rear spinning up on gravel. You do need good throttle control. But the improvement in throttle response makes it all worthwhile for someone like me who rides only on tarmac. I really wouldn't want to ride my bike now on unsealed roads - although doing the TPS and throttle sync has made it smoother there is so much torque from just off idle that it would be 'exciting' to say the least.
Even hitting a bump can see the bike accelerate quite hard so add gravel into the equation and......
I tried various sizes and styles including normal phillips and pozidrive. No movement. I did find one driver that locked perfectly into the screw head but.......I put so much force into it that the shaft snapped. Those screws are tight.
I don't care that I had to drill mine out though - they're never going back in. Anyone wanting to replace them could tap the shaft out 0.5mm bigger and use slightly bigger screws.
I don't care that I had to drill mine out though - they're never going back in. Anyone wanting to replace them could tap the shaft out 0.5mm bigger and use slightly bigger screws.
Please be kind: When I last attempted to remove the throttle bodies -step 10 in the service manual says to disconnect the throttle cables- is this different than removing the throttle cables and if so, how specifically do you accomplish this. Also, don't you have to also disconnect the STVA and some other hoses - Is my manual missing some steps or am I? -thanks - I really want to do the TPS correctly and remove those secondaries but I have no faith in the local dealer. (any recommendations for a good mechanic in Colorado?)
Disconnecting, I would imagine, means disconnecting them from the throttle bodies. I would interpret removal as removing them from the bike but of course you don't need to do that. You need to unscrew the 'tops' of both throttle cables where they join the bracket on top of the throttle bodies (10mm spanner). Don't undo them all the way so the nut underneath comes off the thread - just enough so it is low enough to pass under the bracket (this will make sense when you look). Once you've released the cable outer you'll have enough movement to release the nipple on the end of each cable from the cam. You'll almost certainly not be able to do this with the throttle bodies mounted - there's enough slack in the cables to allow you to withdraw the whole assembly from the right hand side of the bike which gives better access to remove the cables.
You disconnect the entire wiring loom for the throttle bodies at the large, round connector on the right hand side. Then disconnect the TPS/IAP and STP sensor wiring from the left hand side. There are two hoses underneath that run to either front corner of the airbox - you need to remove these from the airbox end. I followed the manual and it included all these steps - see page 1D-9.
You will need to get the fuelling adjusted if you remove the secondaries - don't expect it to run well after you do this unless you have a PC111 fitted and you'll need to get it custom mapped. Personally I wouldn't use a TFI in these circumstances but that would be another option.
Sproggy- thanks much for the explanation - I was leery of going further with the throttle cables and couldn't see how they were attached. As long as the steps in the manual are actually correct, I now have confidence that next time I will be able to finish the job. I already have a TFI (which I returned twice to Dobeck- they confirmed the failure symptoms and sent me a new one which works fine)- if the bike goes leaner in the 2500-3500 range I think that I am o.k. - I believe Dale's settings are actually a bit rich at this altitude with the 02 bypass. When I get some $$$ I will get a dyno run and A/F check.
rworm
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You will need to get the fuelling adjusted if you remove the secondaries - don't expect it to run well after you do this unless you have a PC111 fitted and you'll need to get it custom mapped. Personally I wouldn't use a TFI in these circumstances but that would be another option.
Not so sure i agree
rworm
Not so sure i agree
rworm
Until we see an air/fuel ratio chart with them removed with stock ECU mapping there's no way to tell for sure....But we have air/fuel ratios on the stock bike and they are really lean in that area...Removing the secondaries should allow more air in making it leaner...Removing them on a ZX14 does the exact same thing showing alot more air on the a/f chart and while different bikes they perform the same function...Perhaps doing an 02 bypass along with removing seocndaries makes up for it, but we have yet to see an a/f ratio chart showing this...
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The phillips head screws used on all Japenese motorcycles are of a slightly differant shape and profile than an american series phillips head screw and require the use of a JIS (Japanese Industrial Standard) screwdriver for a proper fit between the screw and the screwdriver.
I have found that the JIS screwdrivers fit the phillips head screws found on Japenese motorcycle a lot better than an american phillips head screwdriver does and can make the differance on sucessfully removing phillips head screws, especially small ones like those attaching the secondary butterflies and those found on carbs as well.
Not every manufacturer of screwdrivers makes JIS phillips head screwdrivers and they can be hard to find, but about 5 years ago I ended up finding them at McMaster Carr where I purchased a #1 and #2 size screwdrivers which I have found fit all of the phillips head screws I have encountered on the motorcycles I have owned and worked on.
If you go to www.mcmaster.com and type "JIS screwdrivers" in the search box it will bring up the page with them on it, and there about halfway down the page.
The JIS screwdrivers that they sell are very high quality ones made by Pratt-Reed and they run $4.47 for the #1 and $4.94 for the #2.
GregH
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Bandito,
How are they different? Could you post a close-up photograph comparing a JIS against its SAE counterpart?
How are they different? Could you post a close-up photograph comparing a JIS against its SAE counterpart?
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Trust me, the JIS screwdrivers are differant compared to the SAE style, but I don't think you will be able to see the differance between them from a photograph.
GregH
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Could you describe the difference? Now I'm curious.
My bike was running lean between 2,500 and 3,500 before it was set up. That was with an O2 bypass AND a PC111 map that added fuel in that area so you can guarantee that with the stock ECU (no PC111 or TFI) and the secondaries removed you'll be running MUCH too lean.
Sproggy,
Since it's a closed look system with an O2 sensor, shouldn't it compensate enough to get the mixture back to the programmed value - unless the O2 sensor is bypassed? My impression is that's why it's there.........
all the best,
Mike
Yes - the dyno graphs and other info are in the mega thread on page 159.
eaglemike said:
I don't have an O2 sensor fitted. As you'll see from my post that you quoted (!) I have an O2 bypass fitted so it's running in open loop. Even if I fitted an O2 sensor I wouldn't expect the system in closed loop to cope with the mods I have - it didn't cope with a stock setup properly. The O2 sensor is there to make the bike pass emissions tests, not to run well or give a good power delivery.
Sproggy,
Sorry - I was under the impression the talk was about removing the secondaries only, and that effect on the fueling - and then whether or not the mixture needed adjusting. If running open loop, of course it would need tuning.
all the best,
Mike
Sorry - I was under the impression the talk was about removing the secondaries only, and that effect on the fueling - and then whether or not the mixture needed adjusting. If running open loop, of course it would need tuning.
all the best,
Mike