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Surging Cured

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Terizius said:
well.. after breaking 1 screwdriver and 2 drill bits.. i decided to just put her back together and leave well enough alone.. for now.
Click to expand...

I did the same thing on the first screw, broke the head off the screwdriver and it was lodged in the screw so tightly that not even the engraver would get it to budge. So then I got out the Circuit board drills and started drilling the screw. Broke 3 of those, then went to a regular drill and a 1/16" bit. Got a little further when the head of the screw popped off. Then miraculously it caught the rest of the screw and drove it through. I got another screw driver and removed the other 7 with out problem.

But then putting them back in the first screw, the other screw driver broke off. Fortunately it did not lodge in too tightly. Those are some tough screws. :giveup:

Todd
 
Anyone have any comments about gas mileage after removing the secondaries? TAPnTX seems to have had his really bomb after removing them.

I'm planning on tackling lots of maintenance items this weekend and I'm still on the fence about removing the secondaries while I've got everything off... it's not worth it to me if I'm going to lose some of my good gas mileage...

In fact, I've debated on going back to stock to see how much I could recoup. I'm just not sure how well the stock ECU would deal with the top of the air box being cut off...

trey
 
Removing the secondaries has little effect of fuel consumption. Having your PC111 or TFI re-mapped afterwards will hurt it more. It depends on what you tell your dyno operator - go for maximum power and the consumption will suffer, go for economy and it won't make nearly so much difference.

You don't get anything for nothing - the bike runs leans from the factory and uses the O2 sensor to control the mixture a lot of the time. Take it back to basics with mods, an open-loop injection arrangement etc and you'll need to put more fuel in but boy, does it run better as a result.
 
sproggy said:
Removing the secondaries has little effect of fuel consumption. Having your PC111 or TFI re-mapped afterwards will hurt it more. It depends on what you tell your dyno operator - go for maximum power and the consumption will suffer, go for economy and it won't make nearly so much difference.

You don't get anything for nothing - the bike runs leans from the factory and uses the O2 sensor to control the mixture a lot of the time. Take it back to basics with mods, an open-loop injection arrangement etc and you'll need to put more fuel in but boy, does it run better as a result.
Click to expand...

I guess the better question would be, has anyone with an otherwise stock 1250 removed their secondaries and had it help with surging? o2 sensor still connected or bypassed?

I have a long trip coming up, that's why I'm contemplating going back to stock. The benefits of a little better gas mileage and quiet might be worth the loss of zip for the trip. Since I'm doing all the maintenance this weekend, I figured I might as well remove the secondaries if it won't kill my mileage and help with the surging (not that mine was ever that bad to start with...).

trey
 
treybrad said:
I guess the better question would be, has anyone with an otherwise stock 1250 removed their secondaries and had it help with surging? o2 sensor still connected or bypassed?

I have a long trip coming up, that's why I'm contemplating going back to stock. The benefits of a little better gas mileage and quiet might be worth the loss of zip for the trip. Since I'm doing all the maintenance this weekend, I figured I might as well remove the secondaries if it won't kill my mileage and help with the surging (not that mine was ever that bad to start with...).

trey
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When I did mine it was completely stock, if I remember right it did cure the surge to almost unnoticeable. When I did my comparison of the in or out Flys I did the same gas and same route and really tried to keep speed constant. I did this to see what kind of range I could expect as I had a long trip coming up in the fall. I am still loving the Bandit, smooth and more HP than I need.

Todd
 
treybrad said:
Anyone have any comments about gas mileage after removing the secondaries? TAPnTX seems to have had his really bomb after removing them.

I'm planning on tackling lots of maintenance items this weekend and I'm still on the fence about removing the secondaries while I've got everything off... it's not worth it to me if I'm going to lose some of my good gas mileage...

In fact, I've debated on going back to stock to see how much I could recoup. I'm just not sure how well the stock ECU would deal with the top of the air box being cut off...

trey
Click to expand...

I can get 46 mpg cruisin/Flies out,0/2 bypassed,K&N's,header gutted
0/2 bypass is the 1/2 wt 1k resistor,never a problem(5)for $2.00;-)
I have the factory lid from mine if you want one to play with.
PM me and you can have it for shipping
 
treybrad said:
I guess the better question would be, has anyone with an otherwise stock 1250 removed their secondaries and had it help with surging? o2 sensor still connected or bypassed?

I have a long trip coming up, that's why I'm contemplating going back to stock. The benefits of a little better gas mileage and quiet might be worth the loss of zip for the trip. Since I'm doing all the maintenance this weekend, I figured I might as well remove the secondaries if it won't kill my mileage and help with the surging (not that mine was ever that bad to start with...).

trey
Click to expand...
Just saw this-Pull secondaries/0/2 bypass(radio shack)TB sync and
you will be amazed how smooth your bike is:trust:
 
rworm said:
I can get 46 mpg cruisin/Flies out,0/2 bypassed,K&N's,header gutted
0/2 bypass is the 1/2 wt 1k resistor,never a problem(5)for $2.00;-)
I have the factory lid from mine if you want one to play with.
PM me and you can have it for shipping
Click to expand...

I wondered if you had bypassed the o2 sensor... I have the one from my TFI box that hasn't given me any problems. Did you encase the sensor in silicon caulk or anything?

Thanks for the offer on the lid :thumb: I'll probably play around with what I have and see what I can do, but I'll give you a shout if I think it'd be helpful.

trey
 
Have you checked the ECU hacking thread? Gadget has now identified the maps for the opening of the secondaries. It is now possible to have the secondaries in and still have the secondaries open fully above 5600rpm.
I was hoping to do some tests on a standard Bandit but the UK and USA bikes have different ECU numbers so I still need to get a UK ecu to get the maps from.
 
treybrad said:
I wondered if you had bypassed the o2 sensor... I have the one from my TFI box that hasn't given me any problems. Did you encase the sensor in silicon caulk or anything?

Thanks for the offer on the lid :thumb: I'll probably play around with what I have and see what I can do, but I'll give you a shout if I think it'd be helpful.

trey
Click to expand...
Just some heat shrink where I made the connections
Lid is yours just holler
 
geofftl1000r said:
Have you checked the ECU hacking thread? Gadget has now identified the maps for the opening of the secondaries. It is now possible to have the secondaries in and still have the secondaries open fully above 5600rpm.
I was hoping to do some tests on a standard Bandit but the UK and USA bikes have different ECU numbers so I still need to get a UK ecu to get the maps from.
Click to expand...
Just readin what Gadget is doin blows my mind:eek2:
 
geofftl1000r said:
Have you checked the ECU hacking thread? Gadget has now identified the maps for the opening of the secondaries. It is now possible to have the secondaries in and still have the secondaries open fully above 5600rpm.
I was hoping to do some tests on a standard Bandit but the UK and USA bikes have different ECU numbers so I still need to get a UK ecu to get the maps from.
Click to expand...

Yes, I've been watching it pretty closely. Very, very impressive stuff. That said, I think he's still a ways out on really fine tuning everything and getting someone with a dyno to test the adjustments being made.

When Gadget gets it all squared away, I'll pop the secondaries back in and have the best of both worlds...

trey
 
Thanks for the link....That is strange about closing late in the rpm range...I figured it would be like on the ZX14 where they stay shut then open later in the rpm range...
 
if they stayed shut you would have a closed throttle and the bike wouldn't rev. I think the secondaries help match inlet velocity with throttle position.
 
Sooner or later, it's all gonna be fly by wire. Getting near that now. I think there are already a few bikes out there that all inputs go to the computer and it decides if what you want if fesable and matches programs.
 
achesley said:
Sooner or later, it's all gonna be fly by wire. Getting near that now. I think there are already a few bikes out there that all inputs go to the computer and it decides if what you want if fesable and matches programs.
Click to expand...

The Aprilia Shiver is purely 'ride-by-wire'. And the current R1/R6 too. Maybe I'm getting old but there's too much on bikes now that's electronically-controlled. I want the butterflies to open exactly the amount I twist the grip for. And I don't want a second set of butterflies saying "You don't want to do that". I dream of the throttle response and smoothness of a bike with carburettors. I rode a 15 year old (but very well maintained and set up) ZZR1100 last week and the throttle response was sublime - almost made me want to get rid of the Bandit in favour of something older with carbs...........but then I rode the Bandit home and realised........ :rider:

Fittysom'n, this is your cue to come in and talk about the throttle response on an old FZ1 (Fazer 1000 to us Europeans). The 1250 Bandit just can't compete.
 
Throttle response on the (first generation) Fazer/FZ1.....

It's a carburated bike, it's simple, and when unmodified, is fully capable of FANTASTIC gas mileage from a 124hp (to the ground) 988cc bike. The throttle felt a bit stiff, and it was hard to cruise at a given speed without herky jerky, on/off, throttle response at freeway speed. All the while getting near to, right at, or even more than 50 mpg!!!

-- and then I had to go & mess with it --

A guy could go with popular after-market jetting kits, Dale Walker's Stage 1 kit, or Ivan's. I went with the Ivan's jetting kit. I interviewed a local moto shop and made sure that they would follow the instructions that came with the Ivan's.... they didn't (I soooo hate arrogant shops with snot-nosed minimum wage kids who take absolutely NO pride in their work!). When I got the bike back, it would get no more than 31 mpg!?!?!? I dug into the work they did (didn't do via the instructions) and.... well, the anger, the frustration, the pictures (as proof to show the shop owner), and all that additional work, is behind me now......

Whoa.....!
Ivan's jetting on a carburated Fazer/FZ1 is....... 'sex', smoooooth, FANTASTIC throttle response, easy to ride, lovely to operate,
n i i i i c e ..... (!).

However the OEM fuel injection, WITH secondaries in place, no mods, on the Bandit 1250..... It would be sooooo much easier to accelerate out of a swoopy doopy corner, up the hill, over dale, NOW! if, ONLY IF, that darn fuel injection wasn't sooooo slooow to respond to throttle input. If you're a touring kinda guy who doesn't care for QUICK response from throttle input, the fuel injection on the Bandit is fine, just fine.

Yeah, call me old fashion.... I like the gas squirts to respond instantly to my throttle input. Until I ride that big scooter, the Aprilia Shiver, with it's fly "by wire" fuel delivery system..... I'm gonna pre-judge it as NOT to my liking.

Bottom line, the OEM Fazer/FZ1 throttle input/response kinda sucked.
- BUT - UNLIKE FUEL INJECTION
jetting, cutting springs, adjustments, etc. can easily be made to a carburated bike..... now known as "old fashion" & "out dated".
NOT SO SIMPLE with ECU's, Power Commander, "bike's brain", fuel injection.

Shade tree mechanics now have less to mess with, less fun, less tinkering.....:yawn:
 
I took the plunge on this project yesterday and it went almost perfectly. No skinned knuckles, no profanity (no more than unusual anyway), no extra parts when I was done and everything worked when I put it back together. Total time, probably 3 hours, total cost: $5.97 for a screwdriver.

Here are a couple of pointers from my perspective:

1. At a minimum remove the throttle bodies so they are hanging off to the side of the bike. Initially I thought I could just shift them out to the left and right doing two at a time - bad idea, it is too tight of a space to work effectively. Disconnect the hoses, electrical connectors and slide the throttle bodies out to the right so they are clear of the bike. I left the throttle cables connected (see picture of my 'work space'). But if you're so inclined you can even take them off the cables and work on a bench.

2. I made the mistake of trying to use a cheap "jewelers" screwdriver - DON'T EVEN TRY. These screwdrivers are not strong enough and they do not fit in the screw very well - it will just strip the head. The ONLY problem I had with the entire project was the first screw I tried to take out that I stripped doing this, (had to drill it out). After I messed up the first screw I went all over town looking for a "posidrive" or a JIA standard screwdriver without any luck (everyone looked at me very strangely when I asked). So I bought the Husky brand 8-in-1 Slotted/Phillips screwdriver at Home Depot, it has a PH00 Phillips head that seemed to work well for me and didn't slip at all. It is very strong and also has a much better hand grip than the tiny jewelers screwdrivers.

3. I used a soldiering iron (big pistol grip one, not a electronics one) to heat the screws for a minute or so (not to thrilled about having a torch [open flame] in the vicinity), and then, ensuring the screwdriver was properly seated and aligned, the screws just popped right out, no problem at all.

4. That's it, it was really quite easy, by just taking my time and going slow it was not an issue at all.

I have driven the bike about 20 miles since the removal of the secondaries and it is a remarkable transformation. I was very worried that the bike would become too reactive, too throttle sensitive, like every bump in the road would would make you jerk the throttle a little causing the bike to run unevenly. Let me assure you this is not the case, it actually feels smoother to me. The brain (wrist) bike connection is better, the bike does what you "tell" it to do. I don't think it's quicker necessarily (maybe?) but acceleration is very strong and linear. These things are hard to describe. The surge that I used to get with a quick acceleration is completely gone, it is now smooth and constant (and strong). The deceleration surge I also used to get with closing the throttle is gone also.

The bike sounds ever so slightly more throaty at idle. I do not notice a loss in power at the low end at all (but do notice an apparent increase in power in the mid-high end).

I have no idea how it effects mileage, but I will track it. I also have a TFI, but made no adjustments from what I had previously, it seems to run great (better) as is.

I think it's a little quicker, I think maybe more powerful, but mostly it is more responsive to my inputs - which is exactly what I want.

I highly recommend this mod, if you do it right it is easily reversible too.
 

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I can't find the original post but treybrad, I think you said you'd connected you O2 sensor back up as part of your return to stock? Well I connected mine back up too - big mistake. It's OK on the open road with a reasonable amount of throttle (i.e. when it's in open loop mode anyway) but in town it surges and hunts all over the place even without the secondaries. I hate it. My O2 bypass went with the PC111 but I'll be ordering another one tomorrow - it really needs it.

So my (personal) optimum setup is stock other than:

1. Secondaries removed.
2. O2 bypass fitted.
3. TRE fitted (although it doesn't make any difference).
4. PAIR plugged (not sure this makes any difference either with the stock exhaust but I couldn't be bothered to take the plug out).
 
Yep, I replaced my o2 sensor as well. I do notice it hunting a little commuting, but it isn't bad enough that it's a bother really.

My biggest thing is the increased MPG figures I've been seeing since I went back to stock. Commuting, it still isn't that great, around 44 MPG which is much better than the 39 MPG I was seeing, but... meh.

But out on the open road... wow. I'm in Maggie Valley, NC right now on a trip and I've had two tanks right at 50.3 MPG and one tank at 59.7 MPG on the way here from Austin :eek2: The rest have all been ~45-47 MPG. Before, with the Stage 1 or 2 setup I was lucky to see 45 MPG regardless of what I did.

So, maybe some of that is the o2 sensor cutting my fuel on the hwy cruising, and if so, I'll deal with the slight surge in town to get those kinds of numbers out on the hwy. YMMV, of course.

trey
 
twist said:
I also have a TFI, but made no adjustments from what I had previously, it seems to run great (better) as is.

I think it's a little quicker, I think maybe more powerful, but mostly it is more responsive to my inputs - which is exactly what I want.

I highly recommend this mod, if you do it right it is easily reversible too.
Click to expand...

If you have the TFI from Dale call to get the new settings. It will make it much better, if you get the 4-2-1 it will help as well. Glade you like the new bike.

Mark
 
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