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Suzuki Resurrection Fail

This morning I added a quick & dirty fork wiper boot. It's a hunk of neoprene with a couple of layers of foam air filter media under it. I'll remove the upper zip tie once the Barge cement sets, then cover the seam with nylon seam sealing tape. This way I can peel it down and check/change the filter if it gets doused in oil.

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Finished product:

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Once the brake pads get here, I'll swap them out then go hoon. Probably ride out by Grandpaul's place on Round Mountain because those roads are just rough enough to give the old girl a workout.
 
OK. So, I got the new brake pads installed, and there's some kind of o-ring around the pistons that wouldn't to back on. It was hanging out before I changed the pads. This is a two-piston caliper, one piston is smaller than the other, but the two o-rings are the same size. The one on the smaller one was too big. I guess I need a caliper rebuild kit. But this wasn't sealing brake fluid and it has never been seated correctly on this brake so I figured if it has been good for 7K miles it will be good enough to last until I can get new ones.

I took a quick test ride on it last week after putting the brake pads on. A) it ran like garbage at low revs, constant sputtering and nearly wouldn't run at all until it was warm. B) the brakes were still spongy but at least it would stop the bike if I pulled the lever. So I decided to bleed the brakes, which turns out to have mostly swapped all of the brake fluid. I discovered something in the process. This brake master cylinder has the fluid reservoir cast into the same part as the lever perch/clamp. So as a result when you adjust the angle of the brake lever so you can reach it, it winds up tilting the reservoir. I never worried about this, but when I took the cover off to top up and bleed the brakes, it became clear that due to my handlebar choice and adjustment of the lever, plus the fact that I don't have a center stand anymore, this m/c reservoir design is basically incompatible. I think the fluid is low and can't be set to the right level without adjusting it so it sits level, and it probably sucks in air if I use the brake while it's an angle, like in a left turn (leaning) or while going down a steep hill, like my driveway.

I blocked some time to go ride it long enough to get it fully warmed up so I could attempt to adjust the carb pilot mixture. I ran horribly for at least the first 15 minutes on the road. In fact, for the first few minutes I swear under about 4K rpm it was only running on one cylinder. I had to rev it high and aggressively slip the clutch to just get it to move off a stop sign, which usually resulted in a little wheelie. I'm sure that made my neighbors happy.

Eventually after nearly 30 minutes of riding, I took it home and left it running on the side stand while I attempted adjusting the pilot. First thing I noticed was fuel leaking, which I had previously thought was from the left carb, and in fact I rebuilt the carbs trying to fix this leak. Now I am more convinced this is leaking from the petcock, either from the part itself or maybe the fuel hose junction on the outlet. Always another thing to fix! But yeah, it's dripping. On the side stand, the bike was not responsive to mixture changes on the left carb. I could run the pilot needle all the way in, no change in idle speed, back it out to 2-3 turns, no change in idle speed. So I went to the right side and actually found a sweet spot, which is ridiculously like 4+ turns out. After this, I roughly adjusted the left side to a similar spot and went to ride some more. Most of the stumbling at low revs is gone, it just has a slight stumble off idle before it takes off like a rocket. My guess is the left carb is still too lean on pilot. Later today I'll go out and count the turns on the right carb and set the left one the same. It's just no fun adjusting that stuff with the engine hot.

I am trying to calculate how bad off I am riding this thing with a leaking petcock and that o-ring missing on the front caliper. I just so much want to quit working on this thing. It's a blast to ride when it's working, but I am getting pretty tired of it. It needs to belong to someone who rides it daily. And a '16 or so Ducati Scrambler 800 needs to be in my garage in its place.
 
OK, so I went out and counted turns, the right carb was four turns out on the pilot needle so I set the left carb to the same. Which is insane. Should be wide open at 3 turns. Went for a test ride, cold engine, it still would barely start and sounded like running on one cylinder, almost like the spark plug is fouled on one side. After about 5 miles of struggling to run and riding, it was just barely beginning to run, not right, but what I'd call "usable".

But this bike is not usable.

I did check and there is fuel on the outside of the petcock. I guess it could be leaking fuel through the diaphragm and into the vaccum hose, feeding fuel into the left carb through the vacuum port. That would probably explain why it runs so bad at low revs until you are on the main jet but runs like a rocket on main. And it would explain why the pilot mixture screw had no effect on idle speed on the left carb. That little bit of extra fuel leaking through the diaphragm would make a huge effect on pilot mixture, but it would have barely any effect on main jet operation.

So with that, my next diagnostic move is to disconnect the vacuum line on the petcock and put a BB in it, then just switch from PRI for "on" to ON for "off" and see if the problem clears up. All that while trying to source a rebuild kit for the petcock, which seems to be nearly impossible to find for a pre-96 GS500.
 
Go with a manual petcock and be done with it.

Or modify yours to be manual. The Vacuum designs always fail and when they do it takes mountains of troubleshooting to figure it out.


*edit* Had to get into the wayback machine to find this little write up of how I did mine...

If you open it up and take the diaphragm and spring stuff out, you can easily convert it like I did.

Take out the selector barrel and figure out which of the two holes is used for "prime".

Fill that hole with JBWeld. Be careful to only fill that hole, and don't get any on the exterior of the barrel. Let dry overnight.

Put the barrel back in.

Use Form-a-gasket or something similar when you put the rear cap (vacuum cap) back on. This area will be flooded with gas after the mod.

Cap the vacuum line nipple with something fuel resistant. You could also stuff it full of JBWeld for a permanant solution.


Doing this mod will let you use the stock petcock as a manual system while still retaining the reserve function. Turning the switch to "prime" now shuts off the fuel. I have been using it this way for 3 years now with no problems.

Good luck....
 
Thanks! I decided the same. I think for a daily ridden bike, keeping the vacuum system tip top is the right idea. But for my almost never ridden bike, I think manual will be better. I ordered a crf250x manual petcock to put in. It's just one less thing to break and diagnose.

Appreciate the wayback response. I might mod the stock one like this just to keep the appearance stock.
 
Even easier, if you have an on-off-reserve type (no "prime" position):

Remove diaphragm and replace with small section of inner tube rubber.

That's how I fixed my '86 Concourse unit.
 
Even easier, if you have an on-off-reserve type (no "prime" position):

Remove diaphragm and replace with small section of inner tube rubber.

Mine is ON/RES/PRI ... I think the dirt bike petcock with ON/OFF/RES will be more user friendly, especially if I wind up selling the old goat.
 
I think there's a huge difference in quality between my two motorcycles that I'm having a hard time putting my finger on. I wonder how much of it is "nature" and how much is "nurture".

I got over the last big flub on my '92 GS500 and got it running day before yesterday, took it for a test ride yesterday. It was back to its old tricks, meaning I will have to pull the carbs off again which is just a frustrating job so I avoid it. I'm sure I can get that sorted as long as I get over my mental block against doing the work. It just is so much harder than it has to be due mostly to the fuel line/petcock routing and the airbox dimensions.

So while it ran pretty OK besides not idling properly on my test ride, once I got it home a new, old issue popped back up. The starter. There's a short between the bars on the commutator, it's done this before. I think due to simple age, whatever insulation was once there between the commutator bars has degraded or disappeared in spots and now as the brushes and commutator wear a fine dust of carbon and copper finds its way between some of the commutator bars and causes the starter to short in some positions. I've fixed this before by cleaning the commutator but I think this time it's going to take a new starter.

And that's the thing. With my old GS500, it seems like no matter how many things I fix, something new breaks. I just can't get over the hump. If this was a 50 year old bike with 80K miles on it that had been stored outdoors for two decades to rot then I would understand. But it's not! Sure, it's nearly 30 years old but it only has 24K on it and less than 3K since a top end rebuild. No signs of ever being neglected like rust or rotting parts anywhere. It's been garaged its whole life, obviously, and certainly in the years I've owned it. And I have sifted through the thing either fixing everything broken or worn I find or in many cases upgrading to a more reliable part. But this is supposed to be a reliable Japanese motorcycle, like the Honda Civic of motorcycles.

On the other hand, my 2012 Triumph Bonneville has almost 14K miles on it, 8K or so of which I have put on it myself. But it is basically in nearly mint, brand new condition, even after I wrecked it and had to rebuild a big part of it. But it doesn't have any signs of early degradation of anything. I think the thing will probably go at least 50K before it needs any serious service, maybe twice that!

Maybe it's three decades of "cheap bike" ownership policy... when stuff breaks, the cheapest fix is applied. Or maybe it's "cheap bike" manufacturing policy... when it was built, the cheapest parts were used. Maybe the Triumph is just better not only because it's made of higher quality parts, higher quality design, but also because in its shorter lifetime it was treated better by its owner.

It's mystifying since my old Suzuki was completely designed and manufactured in Japan by a mature motorcycle company with a long history of making durable, high quality products. My Triumph was designed in England by a young reborn company whose heritage was not one of reliable or durable stuff, and then manufactured in Thailand. We're supposed to think building a motorcycle in Thailand makes it substandard to those made in Japan, or designing them in England makes them quirky love/hate bikes while the Japanese in the 90s were known for designing exacting, conservative, and reliable stuff. But this is not true.

I feel like at 24K miles and 29 years of age every single part on my Suzuki that I have not replaced in the past five years is at the end of its service life. That's just a sad commentary on the quality of this thing. The starter in a Suzuki should last longer than 24K miles. It should last 4x that long. The carbs should not require you pull them and clean them thoroughly twice a year in order to keep it running. This bike is not nearly cool enough to be a hobby. It's supposed to be a reliable backup to my temperamental British bike. It's not working out that way.
All triumphs from at least 2011 on were designed to go 100K miles per the factory rep, when I had an honest conversation on longevity. I wanted to be able to share the real expectation with potential customers. Its a good story. the only cosmetic degradations I see on them are rust if not kept inside, and waxed well occasionally. that would happen to any bike though... I loved my two triumph triples, especially the 2012 800 Tiger. I did at least one 900+ mile day on a 955i tiger. Smooth and capable.
 
All triumphs from at least 2011 on were designed to go 100K miles per the factory rep, when I had an honest conversation on longevity. I wanted to be able to share the real expectation with potential customers.

That definitely squares with my experience. I just don't understand how a '90s Suzuki was clearly not designed to go more than 1/5 that distance without needing serious repair.

I might have mentioned it here before (even in this thread! I don't remember), but I suspect part of the thing with Triumph is that when the company was reborn after John Bloor bought the rights. There was no legacy parts bin, manufacturing facility, existing practices, etc. to draw from, so it forced a clean sheet effort. None of the Triumph motorcycles made since 1991 share any parts with those made prior to 1983. But my '92 Suzuki has an engine that's evolved from the GS400/425/450 of the 70s, the frame was new but a part of an evolution of design that was underway including other models. The pressure of using old designs and practices and realize significant cost savings was certainly too great to overcome, but as a result you retain some of the old-world reliability and functionality, while Triumph was doing everything brand new.

FWIW I did cut and plug the vacuum hose to the petcock and put it on PRI to move the bike from the street into the garage yesterday ahead of the rain. And of course, I didn't bother to turn the petcock back to "ON" ("off" in this case). The bike still ran awful even with the quick and dirty petcock mod, and I awoke this morning to a nice little pool of gas under the bike because I have not developed the habit of turning it on and off. Maybe it was a mistake for me to decide to convert it to manual petcock.
 
I feel like Suzuki has alway had a problem with the simple things like cheap fasteners and low budget switchgear, etc. The engineering that went into the design phase was brilliant, but then the bean counters would cheapen it enough to be a problem for the end user.

The roller bearing crank GS's can (and have) gone hundreds of thousands of miles with no rebuilds and little maintenance on the drivetrain. Of course every nut and bolt was rusted out and stripped and the wiring went up in smoke, but the motor was still good!
 
Well, mine needed a top end rebuild at under 21k but that could have been because of owner neglect or abuse. I'm sure the bottom end will last until I am tired of riding it.

Speaking of which, I may have to get serious about fixing it because the front tire on my Bonneville is borderline scary. I need something to ride. Any bets on whether I can get my latest basketcase scooter running before I can make the Suzuki reliable enough to ride? The scooter will need registration and tires. Maybe more. But it doesn't have an eternal carburetor mystery as far as I know.
 
This morning I added a quick & dirty fork wiper boot. It's a hunk of neoprene with a couple of layers of foam air filter media under it. I'll remove the upper zip tie once the Barge cement sets, then cover the seam with nylon seam sealing tape. This way I can peel it down and check/change the filter if it gets doused in oil.

View attachment 302435
Just be mindful that a setup like that has the potential of doing more harm than good. If dirt/debris/mud gets trapped in there and allowed to dry out, it'll then becomes 320grid emery cloth sliding on the stanchions.

IMO, it all comes down to keeping the forks clean. I wipe the male stanchions on my road bikes' forks after every couple of rides - particularly if I've ridden in the wet, or even just over puddles. Takes a couple of mins to do before putting the bike away. In return, no worries about dried mud sandpapering my fork seals on the next ride.
 
Today I swapped the vacuum petcock for a manual petcock. The theory was that the fuel leaking seemed to be coming from the petcock, so perhaps it was leaking fuel into the vacuum line, causing the left cylinder to run like garbage.

While I was tinkering with fuel lines, I decided to put in the fuel filter I got with the rebuild kit. So, once it was done I went for a test ride. Almost didn't make it home.

It looks like fuel is not really getting to the carbs. Some fuel gets into the filter, but there is mostly air in there and clear air bubble in the fuel line. Once you ride off idle, it depletes the fuel filter of fuel and dies on the road. Then you can wait for gravity to slowly draw more fuel in, then ride about a block. Never does the fuel filter fill with fuel or the lines get rid of the air bubble that is literally 75% of the length of the fuel line.

I don't know what to think. I guess the float needles have to be closed? I'm going to remove the fuel filter and see if I can route the fuel hose so it doesn't go below the carb bowl, but that's probably impossible due to the location of the air box.

I'm just so frustrated with this bike. Right now it is my best chance to ride since I am waiting on tires for the triumph and my scooter is being Italian.
 
Is the petcock sized properly? Is there an obstruction in the tank? (I can't imagine one since you were swapping petcocks, just asking) You might open the drain on each carb to see if they are all flowing ok. Maybe a different size petcock? Maybe you have a venting issue. Try feeding fuel with the cap off. Other than that I am pretty much out of ideas without playing with it.
 
Yeah I checked all those things. It has to be restriction in the fuel filter.

The original issue could be a number of things, each of which would require me to pull the carbs off again and clean them. But I have literally ridden less than 100 miles in it since I rebuilt the carbs.

Today I'll remove the fuel filter and go from there. Maybe that's the whole problem.
 
I changed the fuel hose and ditched the filter, bike ran basically the same as before I started trying to fix it, same as with the vacuum petcock. But it looks like fuel is in the hose and no bubbles so maybe it wouldn't leave me stranded like it tried to yesterday. But the piece of junk fell over on the side stand while idling and broke the gear lever mount and one handlebar riser, plus bent the gear lever. Also broke one bar en mirror.

I give up. It's just not worth it.

I have three motorcycles in the garage and can't ride any of them. One is waiting on new tires, which are backordered even though the shop aid they were in stock when I ordered them. One is an antique Italian scooter made 8 years ago in India, so what could go wrong? Waiting on parts from India. And the supposedly bulletproof Suzuki is slowly committing suicide.
 
I wish it was that easy, Paul. Petcock is brand new and it flows just fine. I am pretty sure now the problem is the pilot jet is clogged on one carb. The symptom is it won't idle and runs like it's on one cylinder until over 4-6k rpm, then it runs like a rocket. So I can nurse the throttle at stops then wheelie away like a hooligan but otherwise it's unrideable.

I filled the stripped hole in the gearshift mount with JB weld so I can drill and re-tap it, hopefully it'll hold the pivot bolt. I will straighten the shift lever as much I can, at least make it possible to ride. And I am going to just chunk the Rox-ripoff risers and direct mount the handlebar so I can at least test ride it, get some more offset risers eventually. But the main thing is I have to pull the carbs off and clean the pilot jets and idle air passages, any luck it'll run ok after that.

I'm sticking with the manual petcock anyway.
 
The nutty thing about all of this is that once warmed up, it was actually running pretty well just before I discovered the leaking fork seal. I even tuned the pilot mixture with it hot after riding it like 45 minutes. And it has not rolled more than maybe 5 miles since then. The fuel leaking symptom which coincided with poor running that I hoped was the petcock just magically manifested when I was test riding after the fork seal fix. That was probably >1 issue, likely leaking petcock along with clogged pilot jet, which both happened to the bike while it sat in the garage with fresh gas in it. Maybe some flaked off piece of the broken diaphragm in the petcock made its way into the carb and clogged something.

I am never again buying a carbureted motorcycle.
 
If you don't let them sit with fuel in the bowls they are quite good. My 950 SMR gets drained if I am going to let it sit and I haven't had any issues. The little KLX110L also gets drained. The key is keeping as a good a fuel in there as you can, I rotate it out if it starts to smell bad. I realize it is a bit of a pain in the backside, but it beats rebuilding carbs a lot. Honestly I ride all my bikes at least twice a month and use enough gas to keep them from going bad.
 
This is ethanol-free fuel with Star-tron treatment in it, and it has not been sitting more than a couple of weeks. Pretty hard for it to go bad. I think it has to be some kind of debris or foreign material making itself into the carbs in this case to cause it go to bad.

It's just there's always some little thing going bad with the carbs. And there is never anything going bad with EFI. Regular E10 pump gasoline runs perfectly in my Triumph without a care, and it starts and runs perfectly every single time without ever a hiccup.
 
I managed to straighten the shift lever enough to use it. Also re-tapped the mount for the pivot bolt through the JB weld, it might hold. My guess is I will have to eventually put in a rivnut or something like that in place of the stripped hole. But I just want to get rideable first.

My whole beef with working on this thing is removing the tank. The way they put the fuel valve on the tank and the extreme difficulty in fitting the fuel hoses makes life very difficult. I might try leaving the fuel hoses all hooked up and just prop the tank so I can get the airbox and carbs out. I have only done this carb cleaning job about 20 times. Just so sick of it.
 
It's 95% back to working. I finally broke down and pulled the carbs, and as I had suspected, the left carb's pilot jet was completely plugged, so I cleared that and put it back together. Also redid the busted shift linkage, unbent the shifter, JB-welded the nut back into the handlebar so the bar end mirror mounts back up. Bike fires right up and runs right at this moment, but of course I can't really test ride it until I get the broken handlebar riser replaced. I have a new pair of hb risers due to arrive tomorrow.

So with any luck, the old Suzuki will be back in business tomorrow or by the weekend at the latest.

I swear I am going to have to put it on my calendar to go ride this thing just to keep the carbs from going south.
 
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