• Welcome to the Two Wheeled Texans community! Feel free to hang out and lurk as long as you like. However, we would like to encourage you to register so that you can join the community and use the numerous features on the site. After registering, don't forget to post up an introduction!

Video production Q&A

M38A1

Admin
Joined
Nov 28, 2006
Messages
20,410
Reaction score
1,421
Location
North of Weird
First Name
Scott
I'm starting to dive into the world of commercial video. :giveup: Coming from a still photography background, this is a whole different world of terms, processing and equipment to learn.

Do we have any video folks on the board with experience in capture, recording, encoding and distribution? I'm just starting to scratch the surface on what the requirements are and could use some help. This is a church environment and the objective is to record the service, parse out the sermon and have the ability to playback that sermon content via the web within 24 hours AND be able to play it back at a remote (15min away) site within AN HOUR. :eek2:

I've seen two approaches and am sort of lost on the pros/cons of each at this point. One does everything locally (camera/audio capture to a mixer to recorder and encoder which spits out a file to a SSD that is then driven to the alternate location and played back) The second does a mix of local and remote where they provide the camera/audio capture to a mixer and then to the cloud where it's encoded and stored. That file can then be streamed down to a remote site.

More specifically, just starting out with a general workflow. I "think" this is how it works:

INPUTS->PRODUCTION/MIXING->RECORDING->ENCODING->DISTRIBUTION

Is this how it works?


.
 

Tracker

Forum Supporter
Joined
Dec 25, 2005
Messages
13,500
Reaction score
2,736
Location
Rowdylett, TX
First Name
Gary
I had good results using Vimeo for streaming for our company client training videos and integrating it into our website. Can't help you on the other. Good luck!
 

mitchntx

Follower of Rev. Doug
Joined
Jun 11, 2006
Messages
4,481
Reaction score
1,472
Location
Whitney
First Name
Mitch
Last Name
Warren
I'm no expert, but I've been around the block a couple times producing and delivering information on video.

Worked for KLTV for a very short while doing ENG/EFP on linear gear in the early 80s. Heck, I've had limited experience using 16mm film. worked with barry Hanson and Judy Jordan if you want some name dropping.

Left the stress of the news world and got a corporate gig in 82 at a training facility in Athens supporting a local utility's training needs.

In 88, moved to Granbury and have worked my way to managing an employee communications group in print and multi-media.

We currently use Canon XA30 cameras and Adobe Premiere Pro/After effects for post.
Capture in AVCHD - 1080p - 29.97fps due to limitations on playback.
The camera handles low light, changing light and contrasting light very well.
The lense is limited on focal length, though. Takes a nice wide shot, but lags in the long shots.

Use the native format (AVCHD) in post and export to .wmv
We distribute using a local LAN share. It's used on-site only.
However, more and more employees are migrating to a mobile device and we are limited on delivery due to firewalls and cyber-security issues.

We use wmv format because it's a the approved and installed media playback app on all company issued PCs. There are better codecs out there, but its our lowest common denominator.


In looking over your needs, the biggest hurdle I see is the 1 hour turn around for 30 minutes of a sermon. For my setup, it takes a couple hours to move the RAW video off of SD cards, onto a local drive and then move the final cut to a LAN share for distribution. I'm talking 10s of Gig files if the presentation is close to an hour.

Back in the day, I did a live switch ... mostly local high school football games played back on community access cable. But that was BetaSP linear tape. It's resource heavy on the front end. Not sure how I could provide that with my current non-linear set-up.

HTH

INPUTS->PRODUCTION/MIXING->RECORDING->ENCODING->DISTRIBUTION

Is this how it works?

It can work that way depending upon your needs and equipment set up.

Mine is:

Record on multiple cameras
Import
Post Production (mix)
Export
Distribute

RIPPED ...
 
Last edited:

M38A1

Admin
Joined
Nov 28, 2006
Messages
20,410
Reaction score
1,421
Location
North of Weird
First Name
Scott
Can you link to the hardware/software for your 2 options?

I haven't got that pinned down yet as I'm still in Requirements Definition. Leaning on a BlackMagic solution for camera, recorder, encoder at this point.


I had good results using Vimeo for streaming for our company client training videos and integrating it into our website. Can't help you on the other. Good luck!

We have a VimeoPRO account and I'm penciling in that's where these creations will reside when I'm done.


I'm no expert, but I've been around the block a couple times producing and delivering information on video.

Worked for KLTV for a very short while doing ENG/EFP on linear gear in the early 80s. Heck, I've had limited experience using 16mm film. worked with barry Hanson and Judy Jordan if you want some name dropping.

Left the stress of the news world and got a corporate gig in 82 at a training facility in Athens supporting a local utility's training needs.

In 88, moved to Granbury and have worked my way to managing an employee communications group in print and multi-media.

We currently use Canon XA30 cameras and Adobe Premiere Pro/After effects for post.
Capture in AVCHD - 1080p - 29.97fps due to limitations on playback.
The camera handles low light, changing light and contrasting light very well.
The lense is limited on focal length, though. Takes a nice wide shot, but lags in the long shots.

Use the native format (AVCHD) in post and export to .wmv
We distribute using a local LAN share. It's used on-site only.
However, more and more employees are migrating to a mobile device and we are limited on delivery due to firewalls and cyber-security issues.

We use wmv format because it's a the approved and installed media playback app on all company issued PCs. There are better codecs out there, but its our lowest common denominator.


In looking over your needs, the biggest hurdle I see is the 1 hour turn around for 30 minutes of a sermon. For my setup, it takes a couple hours to move the RAW video off of SD cards, onto a local drive and then move the final cut to a LAN share for distribution. I'm talking 10s of Gig files if the presentation is close to an hour.

Back in the day, I did a live switch ... mostly local high school football games played back on community access cable. But that was BetaSP linear tape. It's resource heavy on the front end. Not sure how I could provide that with my current non-linear set-up.

HTH



It can work that way depending upon your needs and equipment set up.

Mine is:

Record on multiple cameras
Import
Post Production (mix)
Export
Distribute

RIPPED ...

I'm "guessing" I'll have close to 40GB of data at the one hour mark in 1080 so that sort of rules out the encode process in an hour. I'm leaning towards simply driving the mixed/produced SSD recording from the host location to the remote location 15min away and dropping it in a playback machine and providing either timestamp marks or a black fade so they can quickly index a starting point and push "Play".

My head hurts thinking about this.....


.
 
Joined
Jul 9, 2011
Messages
4,314
Reaction score
671
Location
Dallas, TX
I'm pretty experienced with all this kind of stuff...if you want to give me a call I think you have my number? If not PM me, happy to help.
 
Joined
Sep 2, 2005
Messages
587
Reaction score
0
Location
NW Houston
First Name
Tom
Last Name
Francis
Our church uses Vimeo. The issue you will have is encoding the video and uploading it in a short amount of time. You would need some serious horsepower on your computer and a really fast upload speed. You might be able to run a fiber link to your other location and send the video over fiber. We used to send the service live over fiber to our other location.
 

M38A1

Admin
Joined
Nov 28, 2006
Messages
20,410
Reaction score
1,421
Location
North of Weird
First Name
Scott
Been a long time since last posting so here's a little update. This isn't so much a software question anymore as we've been tweaking hardware and then upgrading said hardware and continue to tweak things to really dial this in. Along the way we've been reasonably capable in capturing a useable .mp4 file, but we really can't control downstream (cloud) processing and compression/quality loss. Every little step of the way others have their hand in the pie so to speak. So there's a little degradation going on which appears enhanced when you start out with just a useable file vs a really great file. Here's the progression over the past four years and I believe you can see a progression in quality.

The first 30 sec to one minute are canned 'bumper' videos created by someone else. You can just skip through them in each case.

Proof of Concept
I initially went with a Rushworks system for "Proof of Concept". A fully contained one-person production solution going the PTZ camera route with two cameras. The Rushworks box was a big Dell with Rushworks software using a Black Magic block of code for much of the work. The concept was proven using this, and the end product was acceptable, but not really great. Focus was a bit soft, encoding matching audio to video had a few milliseconds of delay which introduced work to correct (or we lived with mouths not syncing to words). We didn't implement a live-streaming solution at the time. Rather, created the file, tweaked here and there, uploaded to Vimeo and blasted out the link. But it was workable and served well for three years or so.

Here's one of the last productions I did before handing the project off to the next team. Useable, but certainly not an expert production.



New Equipment
Fast forward to 2021 and I'm no longer involved with the video production as the proof of concept worked and responsibility passed to others. The new team did a hardware upgrade to a Resi based encoder/decoder/cloud based live-stream system and stuck with the PTZ approach for one-man production using a Panasonic PTZ solution for two cameras. I've always thought the quality was better than the Rushworks solution, but it just wasn't "right" in my mind.

This is what the new team was creating with the Resi/Panasonic system.



Optimizing the New Equipment
At this point I'm brought back into the team for my still photo experience and told to optimize the new solution. So I dive in and see everything about the iris, LUX, fps, ghosting/halo for movement, DOF, lighting, optical/digital zoom, and gain. A bit of tweaking here and there explaining the relationships of the "Triangle" to any solution and the kid running it was a sponge just soaking it up. After a bit I could start with a question and he's pop out a potential solution understanding how that worked. Lighting wound up being the biggest component for these little PTZ cameras - they just needed a LOT of it. Yet I had to balance production/stage people and squinting vs what I needed for light. A happy balance was achieved. Then iris (aperture) was tweaked for some depth of field. Then manual vs auto-focus. Slowly, this started to come around. Again, we're using PTZ technology so we're really limited on the camera side for quality. But it was fairly decent.

Here is a very recent sermon with some optimization going on. The one spot of out of focus was due to the kid having set "auto-focus". Doh!



One More Solution For Grins
Fast forward to a couple weeks ago and I get this idea to grab one of our Canon C200 dedicated video bodies and an "L" glass 70-200. I got the SDI line run, fumbled my way through the menu structure and applied everything I learned with the Panasonic PTZ issues to the C200. I'm fairly confident I've got the C200 configured in a manner which captures a good sermon.

And here is where I'm at now with this past weeks's service using everything I know about capturing images and translating that to video using a higher end camera. The pullback/full stage shot is still using the Panasonic PTZ. The tight shot is the C200. Camera shake at the beginning was me and once I was off the platform went away. I think I need a tad bit more light too.



I firmly believe the next jump to see significant "WOW" would have to be a television/true production grade camera. I've got some things now to work on like stage presence, moving distracting items (drum set), creating space between the speaker and the background, colorizing the background for separation and some other little things regarding the production side vs capture side.

So there you have the past four years of video progression at the office. I hope you can see a difference! lol
 
Joined
Jul 9, 2011
Messages
4,314
Reaction score
671
Location
Dallas, TX
You've had a project on your hands!

Some thoughts;
  • It's all about the glass & the iris, a higher grade camera body may not deliver much improvement but a great lens will allow to you run a large aperture which will throw the distracting items out of the depth of field
  • Lighting & shading
    • I notice that the wide shot & the medium look very different, this is just a shading issue & an easy fix
    • Lighting looks quite balanced, the difficult trick is to make it acceptable for a live audience but low level enough to allow you to exploit a low depth of field
    • Some backlighting on the drape will help separate the pastor from the black depths and give him some pop
    • I would suggest adding a 3rd POV angle, low off the DS edge looking up, this is dramatic so use sparingly!
    • Try moving the wideshot off center, the Pastor seems to favor the House Right slightly so placing it over that way would give a more interesting angle
But good job all around.
 
Joined
Sep 16, 2021
Messages
2
Reaction score
0
Location
Round Rock
I'm starting to dive into the world of commercial video. :giveup: Coming from a still photography background, this is a whole different world of terms, processing and equipment to learn.

Do we have any video folks on the board with experience in capture, recording, encoding and distribution? I'm just starting to scratch the surface on what the requirements are and could use some help. This is a church environment and the objective is to record the service, parse out the sermon and have the ability to playback that sermon content via the web within 24 hours AND be able to play it back at a remote (15min away) site within AN HOUR. :eek2:

I've seen two approaches and am sort of lost on the pros/cons of each at this point. One does everything locally (camera/audio capture to a mixer to recorder and encoder which spits out a file to a SSD that is then driven to the alternate location and played back) The second does a mix of local and remote where they provide the camera/audio capture to a mixer and then to the cloud where it's encoded and stored. That file can then be streamed down to a remote site.

More specifically, just starting out with a general workflow. I "think" this is how it works:

INPUTS->PRODUCTION/MIXING->RECORDING->ENCODING->DISTRIBUTION

Is this how it works?


.
There are lots of thoughts on the subject on YouTube.

YouTube Church Video Setups
 
Joined
Jul 9, 2011
Messages
4,314
Reaction score
671
Location
Dallas, TX
There are lots of thoughts on the subject on YouTube.

YouTube Church Video Setups
This is the low angle shot I was proposing. Also, notice the lit drape behind to separate him from the blackness.

Screen Shot 2021-11-03 at 8.30.13 AM.png
 

M38A1

Admin
Joined
Nov 28, 2006
Messages
20,410
Reaction score
1,421
Location
North of Weird
First Name
Scott
Thanks for the comments!

Yeah, this has been a learning experience for sure. I have ZERO doubt the Canon L Glass 70-200 f/2.8 is infinitely superior to a Panasonic PTZ lens. ZERO. lol

I'll look into your suggestions. The past couple weeks all I've 'focused' on (pun intended) is getting a quality sermon shot captured. I've not yet looked into set design, framing, backdrops yet. I just wanted to see what the equipment is capable of. Now the real fun begins.
 
Joined
Jul 9, 2011
Messages
4,314
Reaction score
671
Location
Dallas, TX
Thanks for the comments!

Yeah, this has been a learning experience for sure. I have ZERO doubt the Canon L Glass 70-200 f/2.8 is infinitely superior to a Panasonic PTZ lens. ZERO. lol

I'll look into your suggestions. The past couple weeks all I've 'focused' on (pun intended) is getting a quality sermon shot captured. I've not yet looked into set design, framing, backdrops yet. I just wanted to see what the equipment is capable of. Now the real fun begins.

Your lighting designer is absolutely the key to making this look as professional as possible. Great equipment will never make up for poor lighting.
 

M38A1

Admin
Joined
Nov 28, 2006
Messages
20,410
Reaction score
1,421
Location
North of Weird
First Name
Scott
Well, I'm about done with the video sermon capture aspect of this project... We've worked specifically on the quality of the capture, not necessarily the stage setup. Next up is removing distractions like the drum set/shield reflections and the LED strip lighting behind the drums. Well, at least we want to test some shots with that gone. Not sure where it will wind up as I'm not really a set designer either. Then I hope it will be on to the entire stage capture improvement.

Here's the latest capture for Nov 21, 2022. I think short of spending a ton of money we're in the ballpark for better than average video capture.
 
Joined
Jul 9, 2011
Messages
4,314
Reaction score
671
Location
Dallas, TX
Lighting & video looks much crisper (unlike the Pasor's shirt!), if you tighten up the prime shot you'll lose much of the distracting background anyway, try for waist up rather than knees? Also, see if you can open up the iris more & drop the overall lighting levels (I think you have an f2.8 so provided you can track focus, try & get as close to that as possible.

Again, some kind of simple/cheap uplighting on the drape behind will make a world of difference.

12'58" - it's hard not to light that drum kit understandably, but it seems like the guitar & the congas are lit for a reason and are distracting. I think moving the wide shot off-center helped but I would try even further off.
 
Joined
Mar 21, 2004
Messages
1,262
Reaction score
327
Location
College Station, TX
I know little to nothing about video, but I am currently employed as a broadcast sound mixer at a church, and I have 25 years of live sound experience. I also set up and program the lighting for our church since I have a little background in theatrical lighting too.

So if you have any audio or lighting questions give me a shout.

-=Tim=-
979
five7won
too7for 6
 
Joined
Mar 21, 2004
Messages
1,262
Reaction score
327
Location
College Station, TX
Your lighting designer is absolutely the key to making this look as professional as possible. Great equipment will never make up for poor lighting.
That's what I'm seeing too. The lighting will make a much larger impact on the look vs the camera or lenses. We use 2 "nice" canon camera's, one older canon prosumer cam (on a jib) and 3 PTZ's. Our video crew isn't the best at matching all the camera's exposure's and what not, but I have the space lit for multiple angles and it works out fairly well.

The lighting setup was not cheap, however there are cheaper ways to do it than the way we did it.

This past Sunday: Please for the love of GOD don't judge me on the quality of the music mix. There are issue's right now out of my control regarding that. This has our best lighting to date though. And I just ordered 8000 dollars more of lights to light up the left and right area's of the stage where people are standing in the dark. We've been doing lighting upgrades in chunks over the last 3 years.


This is my real broadcast music mix the way I want to do it.
 
Last edited:
Joined
Jul 9, 2011
Messages
4,314
Reaction score
671
Location
Dallas, TX
Looks very professional to me. I would drop the level of the background scenic lighting to allow the subjects to stand out more, aside from that and the (as you say) dark patches you are looking good.

I'd also move the bass player a few steps to stage left so you don't get the bobbin' noggin behind the singer. As for the audio on "Fair" & "My Feet" well done, that's a very solid mix and a tight band. 421's on the toms, some nice old school there!

Oh, & peel the labels off the water bottles! šŸ˜€
 
Joined
May 10, 2014
Messages
988
Reaction score
459
Location
Spring Branch, TX
First Name
Randy
Lighting & video looks much crisper (unlike the Pasor's shirt!), if you tighten up the prime shot you'll lose much of the distracting background anyway, try for waist up rather than knees? Also, see if you can open up the iris more & drop the overall lighting levels (I think you have an f2.8 so provided you can track focus, try & get as close to that as possible.

Again, some kind of simple/cheap uplighting on the drape behind will make a world of difference.

12'58" - it's hard not to light that drum kit understandably, but it seems like the guitar & the congas are lit for a reason and are distracting. I think moving the wide shot off-center helped but I would try even further off.

Great advice here. +1 to tightening up the primary shot, which will eliminate a lot of that background and help to focus on the subject more.

I'll add that the cameras don't appear to be level relative to the stage, which is an easy thing to fix up. I'd eyeball it in, ignoring what the bubble level may say on the tripod if you need to.
 
Joined
Jul 9, 2011
Messages
4,314
Reaction score
671
Location
Dallas, TX
I'll add that the cameras don't appear to be level relative to the stage, which is an easy thing to fix up. I'd eyeball it in, ignoring what the bubble level may say on the tripod if you need to.
Yes, I noticed that too, sometimes absolute level & appearance of level are 2 different things due to lens distortion particularly on a slash shot.
 

DFW_Warrior

Hmmmm.....
Joined
Apr 4, 2006
Messages
14,571
Reaction score
827
Location
Arlington, TX
First Name
Bill
Again, some kind of simple/cheap uplighting on the drape behind will make a world of difference.
You are not wrong on that at all. These little guys go out on almost every show we do and they are amazing with how well the transform a room. Sure, these aren't exactly cheap, but for what we do they work wonders.
 
Joined
Mar 21, 2004
Messages
1,262
Reaction score
327
Location
College Station, TX
Phillip, what do you do for a living?


Looks very professional to me. I would drop the level of the background scenic lighting to allow the subjects to stand out more, aside from that and the (as you say) dark patches you are looking good.

I'd also move the bass player a few steps to stage left so you don't get the bobbin' noggin behind the singer. As for the audio on "Fair" & "My Feet" well done, that's a very solid mix and a tight band. 421's on the toms, some nice old school there!

Oh, & peel the labels off the water bottles! šŸ˜€
For some reason Youtube really crushes the dynamic range of the video. It doesn't look that dull live, or uncompressed. But alas, that part is out of my hands too. I just light it consistently and the video people play with their meter and dials until it all comes out underexposed. :roll:

We still struggle in the exposure and framing and directing department. Most of those folks are volunteers though. Not pros, so it's a balancing act. We appreciate those that show up consistently even if they don't know what they are doing!
 
Joined
Jul 9, 2011
Messages
4,314
Reaction score
671
Location
Dallas, TX
Phillip, what do you do for a living?
I was (and occasionally still am) a sound engineer, studio initially and then live & TV, been hacking a living at that for 41 years. But now I mostly push a laptop as Director of Audio for Creative Technology (https://www.ct-group.com/). We're the largest global supplier of audio, video, TV production & lighting systems to pretty much all levels of client. If you're watching something live on TV or at an event, be it sports or entertainment, awards shows or concerts we're generally in the mix (pun intended) somewhere.

That and $5 will get you a cup of coffee at Starbucks!

Most of those folks are volunteers though. Not pros, so it's a balancing act. We appreciate those that show up consistently even if they don't know what they are doing!
I've helped out quite a few churches over the years and whenever I hear leaders complaining about their staff I remind them that these people show up every Sunday for nothing!
 
Top