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  • Thread starter Thread starter Jarrett
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I've got pop corn ready and waiting to watch the responses. Great questions and interested to read the responses my self. I don't have much to offer. The bikes I have owned are listed below. All fun but served different purposes.

1987 - KLR650 - 48hp - 38.3 lb-ft - 416lbs wet. On/off road adventure riding, long trips.

2005 VN750 Vulcan - 66hp - 47.7 lb-ft - 498lbs wet. On highway commuting, 60+ miles a day.

2001 - KLR650 - 48hp - 38.3 lb-ft - 416lbs wet. In town commuting 12-20 miles a day non-highway

Overall, it depends on feel to you. Is it light enough for you to handle off road? Does it have enough power to not get run over on the highway? Is it heavy enough to not get blown around in a cross wind? Those are some of my thoughts on the subject.


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I'm getting at a little but of it all. I have been on nice dirt roads going to fast and missed a turn. The result was Baja racing through sand and dumping it. Getting the bike upright and then walking it back to the road. I have been on single track that was rutted and the slow motion combined with weight made it difficult to keep upright. I have done some hill climbs on loose rocks were you are walk/riding and the lighter the bike the easier.
In my limited experience what is really fun offroading will not be fun on road. What is fun on road will limit your fun off road. It depends on what you want to do for your riding style. If you want to ride from dfw to Colorado and ride mining roads then your big bikes will do fine. If you want to ride and to some single track them you may have to ride a smaller bike and not have as much fun on the way, so that you can have more fun when you get there.
KLR's have always worked for me but I don't ride the interstate and I give me self more time to get there. They do alright off road and considering the cost, they are perfect for me.

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Popcorn here, too. I can tell you in general terms that there's a difference in riding off road and riding off pavement. I know plenty of people who can competently hurtle their 1200GS down a dirt road or gravel road, but wouldn't take it down a muddy forest track. Some can, and I admire their skill. I'm not that person. My WeeStrom weighs just under 500 lbs; I'll take it down a gravel road to get to a campsite in Colorado. And I've done light passes, such as Kebler Pass close to Crested Butte. I'll leave heavier riding, and questions about such, to those who can actually do it.

As far as highway touring, there's not necessarily a correlation between weight and handling. I'd say lighter is better for off pavement, but heavier isn't necessarily better for on pavement. My Wee is - at least to me - a perfectly comfortable tourer. More importantly, it handles just fine and isn't scary in 30+ mph winds, and that's critical if you're gonna travel in western states.

Maybe where overall weight is most important goes back to how you travel. If you're a minimalist, you might travel just fine on a 400cc sled. If your wife rides with you and the two of you are "hefty", and you like to carry the kitchen sink on your travels, you'll find that large, heavy bikes with liter-plus engines usually have more gross weight allowance. Plus the ratio of bike-to-cargo is less affected than that of a lighter bike.

I personally prize torque above horsepower. Torque gets you up those long passes without having to downshift 2 or 3 gears. And for dirt riding, it's all about torque. But the bottom line is that those specs you posted - ultimately, those are just numbers on paper. It all comes down to how the beast is put together. So go on a lot of Pie Runs, talk to people who ride everything, read experiences on TWT and ADVRider, and cajole your local dealer into a test drive if you're serious about a bike.
 
Weight isn't subjective, it's measured, but how heavy a bike feels is VERY subjective. Case in point. Compare a 400 pound sport bike to a piggy Honda Goldwing. On paper you'd think that Goldwing will be downright awful, but if you ride one you find some interesting things about the bikes. For starters, sport bikes carry their weight very high up in order to give maximum cornering clearance among other things. The big engine on the Goldwing sits very low on the bike making it feel lighter than it has any right to.

When you depart the pavement these characteristics are important as well. The big BMW's follow the same philosophies as the above Goldwing by having that big flat engine low in the frame.

Power to weight ratios will be pretty flat though in comparison. A bike with better ratios will out accelerate pretty consistently.

HP vs Torque? Geez, that's a whole huge discussion right there. Remember that HP is nothing but a formula with the variables being HP and RPM. Torque is generally more important but it's also about how and where it makes that Torque and for how long. V-Twin sport bikes will build that Torque from the beginning pretty consistently through the rev range whereas a v-twin HD XR1200 makes massive torque right away with a near vertical torque curve but it hits the rev limiter very early.

Looking at bikes on paper is fun in the winter time but rarely does paper tell the whole story and looking at side by side specs won't tell you which bike is better. Best to talk to folks and get seat time where you can. Swap bikes with friends, hit up demo days, etc.

Or...like a few unnamed members here, you can just buy a new bike every six months. :D
 
And a second question is torque versus HP, what's the functional diff?

Let's start here.

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u-MH4sf5xkY"]Horsepower vs Torque - A Simple Explanation - YouTube[/ame]

Once you watch the video you begin to see that these numbers on paper may or may not mean something. The rest of the equation is not know without further digging. Like what RPM does peak torque occur and what RPM does peak horsepower occur? When comparing two bikes what is the overall ratio of the transmission from 1st to top gear? How many gears does the transmission have and what is the split between each gear so that you can work the peak HP and TQ as you go through the gearbox?

Weight is another animal. There is real weight and perceived weight. Real weight is actual scale weight. Perceived weight is how it is distributed. For example a Tenere weighs more than my Strom but feels lighter due to the center of gravity being lower. It may or may not be easier to pick up than my Strom, not sure as I haven't found anyone who will let me throw their Tenere on the ground to see if I can pick it up. I can pick up my Strom easy the first time I drop it. The later in the day and the more fatigued I am it progressively gets harder to pick up. I have to weigh the risk verses reward when looking where I will take it. I can pick up my KTM 525 several times in an hour and not be to worried about it. This leads to your next question of what is off-road....

Off-road can have many definitions and levels. Is a gravel road off-road? Well not really because we used the word road to name the surface we are on. The location of this road may make it much worse than riding across a field. There are a few roads out in Big Bend that recommend high clearance and 4wd to travel. I have traveled most of these in a 2wd vehicle when conditions are right. I have also had to work hard with a 4wd on the same road on a different day. There are roads that are dirt or sand. There are trails in National forest areas, these range in difficulty from easy to hard. Texas is mostly private land with very little public access to trail riding, there are several private areas you can pay to ride. In other states like NM, CO, UT, AZ, AR there many trails available for public access. Tires can make a huge difference in how well a bike like your AT does on different surfaces. Some folk like the ability to have bike like the AT that can carry them and their gear to a place like NM for a long weekend and ride some forests roads and easy trails while other prefer a light bike that they trailer to one of these locations and seek out the hard stuff.

The bottom line is everything motorcycle related is a compromise. You just have to find what works for you.
 
A tale of four bikes.

My lightest weight bike is about 160lbs. It's a trials bike that I use for jumping logs in the pasture as a pass time. This is an extreme example, but bunny hopping is easier on a lighter bike. Lots of other dirt riding is easier on a lighter bike too.

I just sold a KTM 300 that was about 60 lbs heavier. Riding all day on rocky single track, including a couple of falls, was a workout, but not the work out that a big single would have been. Riding fast over rough terrain requires the rider to constantly adjust the speed and direction of the bike, sometimes in conflict with the bike's momentum. Lighter is easier.

My BMW X Challenge weighs 363 lbs when loaded for desert riding. I've taken a couple of long desert rides and a number of shorter off road rides on it and it is work. On the up side it will travel all day at Interstate speeds, although I don't like to ride it that fast. Now it is a "light adventure bike" meaning that I use it for general travel when I'm riding by myself and over a wide range of surfaces. Unloading a 600lb adventure bike to get it off it's side is not something I want to do.

BMW RT weighs in something around 650 lbs. On the pavement it's a dream. One gravel it's work. On single track it's on its side. I'm not riding it in the pasture where I take the Serco.

Torque is the ability to work against a load. HP is the total work produced. A lot of torque can make for an easier ride, especially for me when I make sloppy gear changes.

As mentioned, HP to weight, Torque or HP doesn't tell the whole story. Look at where you want to go and what bikes are going there. Then, like Jasen says, try a few, talk to people. Finally, don't think you need to have a XYZ brand just because. I'm a BMW guy, but if I were buying a new bike today it would be a Super Ten not a GS, mostly because I with several people, whose opinion I respect, who love theirs.
 
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where you do go to ride in a field somewhere?

In Texas you might as well forget that notion. We got the **** end of the stick when it came to public access lands. Which is to say we have practically none. Most (not all) ADV "off roading" in Texas consists of unpaved county roads. THere are off road parks but most are geared towards modded Jeeps and dirt bikes, ATVS, SxS, ect. Sam Houston Ntl forest is pretty far for most people and Big Bend Ranch State and Ntl Park are decent but again far for most people to go for a weekend.

WEight or how it feels is a subjective thing to some people. Some folks do well with heavier bikes others want the lightest bike they can find with just enough power to get by on the pavement. Even though I ride a Strom (heavy) and ride it to places I probably shouldn't a lighter bike is better IMO but there's always a compromise between outright off road ability and pavement ability. I think bikes like the Strom are perfect in a state like Texas where most of our off pavement stuff is fairly well maintained.
 
The moral of the story is "you can never have too many motorcycles". Come to think of it, 'more toys' is always better.
 
Now that's funny.
Amen. [emoji965]️
The moral of the story is "you can never have too many motorcycles". Come to think of it, 'more toys' is always better.



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This is one I don't yet understand and part of the overall question.

First, what is off road? Off pavement? Two track? Or literally, just out in a field somewhere. If it's the last thing, where you do go to ride in a field somewhere?

And second, what does light enough to handle mean? Does that mean, can I pick it up by myself if it falls over? Or does weight affect it when in motion as well?

Jarrett,

Anything off-pavement generally tends to be called off-road riding. However, strictly speaking, the term is inaccurate. A road, whether it be dirt or pavement, is still a road and is not "off road" riding.

Dirt riding encompasses everything from a well maintained dirt road to the gnarliest terrain found on "The Last Man Standing" enduro competition. The term "dirt riding" is about as descriptive as the term "streeet riding". Street riding includes everything from freeways, highways, county roads, city streets, and so on. In other words, neither term is particularly descriptive.

With that being said, when riding dirt, lighter is better. It takes physical effort to ride a bike in the dirt and the more extreme the terrain (steep hills, sand, mud, rocks, etc) the more physical effort it takes to ride the bike across that terrain.

As a point of comparison most single purpose dirt bikes (motocross bikes, enduro bikes) weigh in the low 200 lb range. Light enough for a rider to pick up by himself - which is an important consideration when riding in the dirt because everyone falls when riding in the dirt, even the pros. Light enough to enable the average sized rider to handle the bike. Light enough for a rider to recover when the bike gets out of shape. If a 200 lb bike gets sideways while riding you are much more likely to be able to recover and not crash than if a 525 lb bike gets sideways while riding. The heavier the bike the more impotent the rider when the bike gets out of shape.

Dual sport bikes tend to weigh in the 300 lb range (300 - 375 lbs or so). They are bigger and heavier than single purpose dirt bikes for a few reasons, including having street legal bits (battery, headlight, taillight, blinkers, etc), comfort, and to make them more suitable for street riding than single purpose dirt bikes. These bikes are trying to balance weight and capability - they weigh more making them less capable in the dirt but more capable on pavement. They are generally at the max weight one would choose for serious dirt riding. You can probably pick one up by yourself after dropping it in the dirt.

Adventure bikes weigh 400 or more lbs, with most in the 500 lb range. They are much too heavy for any serious dirt work but are fine on easy dirt roads. They are much better on pavement than dirt bikes or dual sport bikes. They give up dirt capability to gain additional street capability and comfort. You might be able to pick one up by yourself once or twice but beyond that you will be exhausted. Despite the manufacturers and media claims of being "go anywhere bikes", they are not a particular good choice for riding anything more challenging than easy dirt roads.

When designing a bike, the manufacturers have to make trade offs. For example, a wider seat is more comfortable but it weighs more and is less suitable for dirt riding where a rider needs to stand and constantly shift his weight back and forth as dictated by the terrain. Bigger engines make more horsepower and torque but they weigh more. Small engines can be made more powerful but the trade off is reliability and maintenance - a motocross bike makes a lot of power compared to the total weight of the engine but it's rebuild schedule is measured in hours. A BMW GS 1200 engine is big, heavy, and powerful with a rebuild schedule measured in 10s of thousands of miles. Want to carry luggage? Then you need a strong enough subframe to handle the weight. Strong subframes add weight to the bike. Want to be able to carry a passenger? You need a seat, footpegs, and a strong enough subframe to hold the weight- all of which add weight. Want cruise control, heated seats, heated grips, traction control, wind protection? All add weight to the bike, making it less capable in the dirt. Want to be able to ride lots of pavement miles? You need a cush hub, which adds additional weight. And so on.

The bottom line is this:
- sub 300 lb for serious dirt riding. More than this is too much.

- 300 to 375 lbs for dual sport riding. Heavier is too much for hard dirt riding and lighter doesn't provide enough pavement capability.

- 400 lb plus for adventure riding. Too heavy for anything but easy dirt. Great pavement bikes.
 
Next question based on that, does it matter if you're adventure bike weighs 534 lbs or 633 lbs? Or after 400, its all the same?

Yes, it does matter, just to a less and less degree for every additional pound added.

The ability to prevent a fall when a 534 lb bike that gets cross-rutted isn't very high. It's more difficult with a 633 lb bike but in either case the rider is much more impotent compared to a sub-400 lb bike in the same scenario. The ability to finesse a 534 lb bike and persuade it to go where you want it to go on some muddy two track is only slightly better than trying to do the same thing on a 600 lb bike. Stuff that is a breeze on my 260 lb KTM 500 I wouldn't do on a dare on any of the big adventure bikes.

Generally speaking, as adventure riders get more experienced they either a) opt for lighter bikes for serious dirt riding or b) stop trying to ride too heavy adventure bikes on anything other than easy dirt. For example, Suzuki's research shows that very few Strom owners ever venture on the dirt at all.

This is a 3 part series on adv bike selection that is well worth reading and absorbing. Walter (the writer) is an experienced adventure rider, having done multiple trips in/around/across Russia, Mongolia, and that area of the world. He wrote these 3 articles because weight is such an important, and too often overlooked, factor in adventure riding.
 
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Trail Boss has given a great summary. Well done.

I think of a VSstrom as being sort of the motorcycle version of a 2WD Ford Explorer. It'll get you down a gravel or dirt road with a little care, but I don't go looking for them; I take them as needed to get to a NF campground or a off-the-most-beaten-path vista. What is ridiculously easy on a dirt bike is tricky on an adventure bike, and will probably leave you upside down on the average cruiser.

PS - Don't forget that no bike is better offroad than its tires. A set of Metzeler Tourances or Michelin Anakees or Shinko 705s will get you down that camp road a whole lot more safely than a pure street tire, but don't confuse them with a good semi-dirt tire with a real offroad tread. But in riding, everything's a compromise. You're trading offroad traction and stopping ability against onroad comfort and longevity.
 
Good stuff, thanks.

Next question based on that, does it matter if you're adventure bike weighs 534 lbs or 633 lbs? Or after 400, its all the same?

Good stuff indeed.

As suggested though, stats and figures are only a very rough guide.
The questions that you should ask though are:
What is the real intent for the bike?
What kind of riding will I be doing?
Do I want a relaxed seating position and relaxed ride?
Do I want to ride **** bent for metal in far off places?

Many may disagree but, one of the reasons I love riding my sports bike is because it’s 1000cc race ready engine makes it super easy to play all day in 3rd and 4th gear and not constantly worry about those constants that I have to with my 250cc supermoto. Things that will come much later as you build up your experience.
 
The bottom line is everything motorcycle related is a compromise. You just have to find what works for you.

Exactly.

The bottom line is this:
- sub 300 lb for serious dirt riding. More than this is too much.

- 300 to 375 lbs for dual sport riding. Heavier is too much for hard dirt riding and lighter doesn't provide enough pavement capability.

- 400 lb plus for adventure riding. Too heavy for anything but easy dirt. Great pavement bikes.

The explanation by Trail Boss is spot on.



As I've gotten older, weight, or the lack of it, has become the most important factor in selecting a bike. Followed by suspension, brakes, and power...


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That's a lot of worm cans to open in one post.

2cents from a fairly new dirt rider: Weight will always matter, but for the inexperienced, out of shape or the less mobile person, it matters much more. There are tons of people like me that bought a KLR as their first "off road" bike, dumped it a couple of times, didn't like picking it up and then started looking for a lighter bike. Like many, I landed on a DRZ, but WR250's are popular as are some others. The DRZ has a fair amount of torque. In a steep climb, I don't have to rev the engine like crazy and I can pretty well tractor up the hill, while the WR needs to rev higher to get up that same hill. It doesn't have has much torque available. Bikes with a lot of torque will tend to accelerate well without having to be fussy about what gear you are in.

As Trail Boss and some of the others mentioned, many of us have more than one bike. I complement my DRZ with the Tenere. I chose it because I ride two up a lot. If I didn't, I might have chosen the AT as my "big bike" to save some weight and increase the places I could go.

Even on the street, weight can be important. My old Concours is pretty heavy and when fully fueled it's very top heavy. It will eat up the miles and straighten out the curves, but in a parking lot, it is a big pig. You'll notice that a lot of bikes get dropped in parking lots and that includes my Connie. It's easier for a heavy bike to get away from us there, particularly if it holds its weight up high. Bikes like momentum. Take it away an they like to fall down. Small mistakes matter at parking lot speeds.

I'm very new to dirt riding and not accomplished at all, but I quickly discovered that I can go more places with a lighter bike than with a heavier one and that suspension matters a whole lot as well.... And I just opened another can.

edit: With tshelfer adding tires, we now only need to add oil for a full house.
 
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Personally, I got my 650 Versys because I knew what it was and what it was (more or less) capable of. Most places in TX that are still shown as a "road", I'm pretty sure my bike can ride even if I can't.

If you are looking to "challenge" yourself, take a look at this thread. http://www.twtex.com/forums/showthread.php?t=116592&highlight=MOAB

If you are tired of the AT already, you can give it to me. :rofl:
 
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