Efficient vs. Economical

[wanabeguru]

Bill, I understand the red line info, but thought longer stroke/lower RPM would allow SAME combustion mixture to work LONGER. Maybe coolhand can get one of his M.E. buds to provide an answer.

 

[Tourmeister]

And now my .02. Why not increase the stroke of the pistons gaining much longer power input to the crank thereby literally getting more bang for the buck? I think[I could be wrong] longer stroke increase AVAILABLE torque. Ain't it the torque that does the work? And consequently provides MPG? I would be happy to give up some performance on our little KIA 4 banger to get substantial increase above the 28mpg wife gets["little miss leadfoot"- I can get 38mpg]. I welcome comments.

Here is my understanding based on casual reading of Kevin Cameron's editorials in Cycle World... Side loads on the pistons and piston head accelerations are big issues with long strokes. A longer stroke means the crank arm has to be longer to get the longer moment arm you are thinking of. When the arm is 90 degrees to the piston center line, the connecting rod is at an angle to the piston center. This induces side loads on the pistons which can wear piston rings faster. Also, with the longer stroke, the piston accelerates and decelerates really fast, inducing very high loads on the connecting rods, bearings, etc,... Thus your RPM's are also limited. As with any engineering application, design is all about compromising between competing demands and trying to optimize the trade-offs. Over square engines get their torque from larger diameter pistons and shorter strokes. This reduces side loads and acceleration related stresses. It also allows the higher revs that we've been seeing in recent years on many of the top sportbikes.

 

[Tourmeister]

You've never met me have you? I don't BS around in person, and I don't do it here on the forum either. If someone wants to act like a child on here, I will treat them the same way they will get treated in person. It's the only fair way to go about it. But trust me, I don't change from who I am on here and who I am in person. Just ask those that know me.

Based on what I have read in this thread, this is a bit of the pot calling the kettle black... It is possible to be a "tell it like it is" person without being belittling others. Learning and applying this is part of being an adult. I know you can do it when you want because I have seen you do it. I admit it may take a little more time and effort though. The following are NOT examples of your ability to do this:

Sooooo.... by your little rationalization, a semi-truck is more efficient than your Civic, and a Diesel/electric locomotive is even more efficient than the semi. So it looks like your rationalization is a little iffy. No wonder your wife doesn't get it. You make no sense to begin with....

Unless you have something decent to add to this, then I might suggest you just stay out of it and let us adults have a conversation. But please try to refrain from 3rd grade insults, and degrading your significant other at the same time. It just helps others on here see you for who you really are.

Thanks and have a pleasant evening.

Both of those responses are pretty much guaranteed to get a hostile response from the person at whom they are directed. I guarantee that if they had been directed at you, you would have come back with guns blazing.

Now, it might seem like I am picking on you, and at the moment I am However, you are by no means the only person that uses such dismissive and condescending language when addressing other people in these threads that get a bit heated. It is the number one thing that I have tried to get people to refrain from doing since I started this site. It is the basis behind the rule regarding civility and treating other people with respect. I've been a bit busy with my personal life of late and have not been riding people on this like I have in the past. Consider this a reminder for everyone to chill out and remember that we are supposed to be friends here. I expect folks to behave. If they cannot handle that or they simply wish to "stir the pot", there is no shortage of other sites where the anything goes mentality is welcome...

 

[DFW_Warrior]

When I start it, you be sure to let me know. When what I type is in response to someone name calling, well.... sorry, but they asked for it. I really was genuinely curious as to why he thought a Civic was more efficient than a motorcycle, yet didn't think a semi or locomotive wasn't. All he came back with was "talking to you is like talking to my wife, she won't understand and neither will you".

Soooooo, I hate to say it, but he got what he had coming to him. Now if he just wanted to engage in helping us understand his points, it would have been all good. But I guess he didn't want to do that for whatever reasoning was behind it. But only he will ever know that.

 

[Morgan Buchanan]

I guess what he's saying is that someone else's incivility isn't an excuse for one's own. In other words, take the high road and don't respond in kind regardless of how much you believe someone deserves it.

Tough, I know, I'm guilty as sin of doing it myself at times.

 

[wanabeguru]

Thanks Scott for the splanation of torque, etc. Does anyone remember the small V8's of yesteryear that got high 20's mileage? Me thinks when all jumped on the bandwaggon of a 4 banger is better than an 8 forgot that the 4 is severely overworked with ensuing crap for mileage and actually less than a small 8 in the same vehicle. Fuel delivery is another point to consider. Oh well, I shuda put all my [long gone] 401k into OIL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Tourmeister]

I guess what he's saying is that someone else's incivility isn't an excuse for one's own. In other words, take the high road and don't respond in kind regardless of how much you believe someone deserves it.

Correct!

The "he started it" argument doesn't fly when my four year old tries it and it doesn't fly here either

 

[TWTim]

Also, with the longer stroke, the piston accelerates and decelerates really fast, inducing very high loads on the connecting rods, bearings, etc,...

This is how I understand it as well. I read a technical article once on dwell time that talked about longer strokes. If I recall correctly, it basically said the kinetic energy that must be absorbed by parts of the assembly as the piston goes into direction change increases exponentially with even small amounts of additional speed and distance. In essence, it's better to use the high amounts of momentum and inertial advantage to move a larger piston faster through a shorter distance than vice versa. Although the sacrifice is naturally a loss of torque at lower RPMs.

 

[wanabeguru]

Oh well, back to the drawing board Thanks for the input, guys. Maybe bio-diesel is the way to go, burn all that old "fryer oil". As an added benefit, it smells good too!

 

[flb_78]

People don't like long stroke engines. They don't rev up as fast. Diesel semi's use a long stroke inline 6 cylinder engine and only turn 2000rpm redline and actually working rpm of 1500-1600. The most powerful diesel engine only turns 102rpm. Work trucks back in the 60's used inline 6 gasoline engines or big block engines. Long strokes will make much more torque, but the longer stroke severely limits the rpm range and people like to accelerate too much.

Imagine using a hammer? Which provides more power, a long slower swing or several short fast swings?

 

[Tourmeister]

Speaking of efficiency and economy...

http://www.twtex.com/forums/showthread.php?t=484

 

[TWTim]

Speaking of efficiency and economy...

http://www.twtex.com/forums/showthread.php?t=484

Now that's a crankshaft! Check out the ladders going into the journals!

Maximum power: 108,920 hp @ 102 rpm
Maximum torque: 5,608,312 lb/ft @ 102 rpm

 

[DFW_Warrior]

Correct!

The "he started it" argument doesn't fly when my four year old tries it and it doesn't fly here either

Perfect, then I'd like to report brown's post of equating me to his wife, and calling his wife stupid all as the same time, as a personal attack. Either you can take care of it, or I will. But when it happens and gets left on the forum, I apologize for dealing with it myself.

Kind of like if someone is committing a crime, and the po-po don't show up, I'm not going to sit on my bum like a model, lazy citizen and watch it happen. There are plenty of worthless Americans that fit that bill, I won't be one of them.

So whenever that post is gone, I'll gladly edit my own.

 

[DFW_Warrior]

People don't like long stroke engines. They don't rev up as fast. Diesel semi's use a long stroke inline 6 cylinder engine and only turn 2000rpm redline and actually working rpm of 1500-1600. The most powerful diesel engine only turns 102rpm. Work trucks back in the 60's used inline 6 gasoline engines or big block engines. Long strokes will make much more torque, but the longer stroke severely limits the rpm range and people like to accelerate too much.

Imagine using a hammer? Which provides more power, a long slower swing or several short fast swings?

+1 We have one truck in our fleet here that still has a manual transmission. It's an old UD 24' box truck and it has gone through 3 trannys in 5 years (less than 20,000 miles total has been put on it in those 5 years). The reason is because all of our idiot drivers can't fathom the thought of shifting at 2000rpm. They think that every engine should redline at 5 or 6 grand before you have to shift.

Stupid American drivers, but unfortunately they make up the vast majority.

 

[brown]

Perfect, then I'd like to report brown's post of equating me to his wife, and calling his wife stupid all as the same time, as a personal attack. Either you can take care of it, or I will. But when it happens and gets left on the forum, I apologize for dealing with it myself.

Kind of like if someone is committing a crime, and the po-po don't show up, I'm not going to sit on my bum like a model, lazy citizen and watch it happen. There are plenty of worthless Americans that fit that bill, I won't be one of them.

So whenever that post is gone, I'll gladly edit my own.

I have looked back at all of your responses and am very tired of you making inferences that I did not say.

You obvioiuosly have mental problems. Why don't you just go to ****, you worthless piece of ****.

 

[Tourmeister]

Perfect, then I'd like to report brown's post of equating me to his wife, and calling his wife stupid all as the same time, as a personal attack. Either you can take care of it, or I will. But when it happens and gets left on the forum, I apologize for dealing with it myself.

Kind of like if someone is committing a crime, and the po-po don't show up, I'm not going to sit on my bum like a model, lazy citizen and watch it happen. There are plenty of worthless Americans that fit that bill, I won't be one of them.

So whenever that post is gone, I'll gladly edit my own.

Your analogy does not work. You are a guest here and no crime has been committed. If you have a problem with another user, then I DO expect you to report it BEFORE you engage in combat to save your wounded pride. If you cannot abide by this, then you need to reconsider your posting here. The same is true for everyone else.

I have looked back at all of your responses and am very tired of you making inferences that I did not say.

You obvioiuosly have mental problems. Why don't you just go to ****, you worthless piece of ****.

Brown, that is a pretty blatant and intentional violation of the forum rules.

Both of you get to take a break for a while to reconsider the quality of your participation here.

 

[Tourmeister]

This thread has been pretty good when it has stayed on topic. If it can continue to stay on topic, I will leave it open.

 

[poser]

People don't like long stroke engines. They don't rev up as fast. Diesel semi's use a long stroke inline 6 cylinder engine and only turn 2000rpm redline and actually working rpm of 1500-1600. The most powerful diesel engine only turns 102rpm. Work trucks back in the 60's used inline 6 gasoline engines or big block engines. Long strokes will make much more torque, but the longer stroke severely limits the rpm range and people like to accelerate too much.

Imagine using a hammer? Which provides more power, a long slower swing or several short fast swings?

don't they also have a crazy number of gears, like 50 or something (I'm kidding on the 50, but I know theres a bunch)

 

[RedPill]

Now that's a crankshaft! Check out the ladders going into the journals!

Maximum power: 108,920 hp @ 102 rpm
Maximum torque: 5,608,312 lb/ft @ 102 rpm

It's gorgeous! I think that's what we should put the series of 12 1:50 gears on.

 

[Tourmeister]

Now that's a crankshaft! Check out the ladders going into the journals!

Maximum power: 108,920 hp @ 102 rpm
Maximum torque: 5,608,312 lb/ft @ 102 rpm

I wonder how big the single largest piece of metal is on that thing? I bet that piece shown is not all one solid piece. But if it is...

 

[kurt]

I want to know how tight the tolerances are, And what the best oil is for something like that.

 

[1TallTXn]

on the subject of efficient V8s, my '71 mustang with a 302 and a 5spd (thats not stock) will pull 20mpg on the highway if I either run below 65 or above 90. around town she'll turn ~15. now, following a friend with her horse trailer doing 50-55 from austin to cleburne and I averaged 25mpg on that tank. the I35 stretch only burned 1/8th of a tank, the rest was around town.
my dad's O'Rielly rep (he does auto repair) drives a 03 GMC 1500 with a 4.8L V8 and sees 18 around town and ~21 on the highway.
V8s can be plenty efficient if people will treat them right.
Posted via Mobile Device

 

[FrayAdjacent]

Tall, I35 seems to have something magical about it. On trips to/from Austin to DFW or even up to OKC, I always got great gas mileage on 35. Never got as good mileage on I10 or any other long road trips.

 

[TWTim]

I wonder how big the single largest piece of metal is on that thing? I bet that piece shown is not all one solid piece. But if it is...

No doubt -- and in any case, that's a lot of metal.

 

[Loyd]

:Both of you get to take a break for a while to reconsider the quality of your participation here.

Greaaatttt, now who's gonna be the local tire guy?