Tech Day in Rendon 6/7/08 (DFW area)

[TexasShadow]

Actually, it did work with two of us blowing. The O2 content is less in exhaled air and you disconnect the flame from the fuel, stifling the process.

Exactly.

 

[pacman]

By stumbling and surging, do you mean like missing because that is what my Connie does. It runs good under throttle,but, at any constant speed, it is like it is missing.

Ron

Yeah, we could be talking about the same thing. From what I can tell this problem is caused (at least in my case) by the needle height. I adjusted them a half notch up last night and that seems to have cured the problem.

 

[DFW_Warrior]

Chuck, I got your drill in my pannier. It will be sitting in the garage next to your chain tool once I get home tonight.

 

[Gilk51]

Chuck, I got your drill in my pannier. It will be sitting in the garage next to your chain tool once I get home tonight.

Thanks. The plan is to visit you this weekend or you can bring them Friday night if you are finished with them...

 

[DFW_Warrior]

Thanks. The plan is to visit you this weekend or you can bring them Friday night if you are finished with them...

Actually, I don't need them at all. Graeme is bringing his super-jumbo chain tool so I was just going to wait for that one to show up. But if you can hold off until this weekend that works for me too.

 

[Gilk51]

There is a bunch of stuff going on Saturday but I think I will go with sharkey to the gun show over in Dallas and then swing by your place and see what trouble you and your Houston friends are getting into...

 

[pacman]

I've got hose clamps that should fit if you want something a bit more substantial than zip-ties.

I just realized what you were talking about here. I'm planning on using the zip ties to secure the loose ends so they do flop around in the underseat area. I'll use clamps on the carb ends.

 

[pacman]

I think Bill was going to use it this week but it is yours for use as soon as he is done with it...

Bill, are you too busy with trip prep, or do you have some time when I can come buy and use the chain tool this week/weekend?

 

[DFW_Warrior]

Bill, are you too busy with trip prep, or do you have some time when I can come buy and use the chain tool this week/weekend?

If you can be pretty self sufficient then you are more than welcome to come up. The garage is going to be pretty full, but we can make room on the sidewalk if that's okay.

 

[pacman]

If you can be pretty self sufficient then you are more than welcome to come up. The garage is going to be pretty full, but we can make room on the sidewalk if that's okay.

Anywhere you want to put me is fine. I'll bring everything I need and doing the work is no problem. Just let me know when to show up.

 

[ed29]

Wayne, did I understand that you have Don's CarbTune? If you do and are done with it I would like to use it next (with Don's permission of course). Sounds like Bill garage will be full and fast paced. Last flurry before launch.

 

[pacman]

Wayne, did I understand that you have Don's CarbTune? If you do and are done with it I would like to use it next (with Don's permission of course). Sounds like Bill garage will be full and fast paced. Last flurry before launch.

Works for me, but that puts you second in line after Squidward - with Don's permission, of course.

 

[KenH]

Actually, it did work with two of us blowing. The O2 content is less in exhaled air and you disconnect the flame from the fuel, stifling the process.

Nice theory, didn't work, because the fire was still burning after I took the tank outside and returned to the garage. If the size of the flames decreased while you were blowing on it, it was because of the steady decrease in the amount of fuel available.

Fire requires three things: fuel, oxygen, and heat. Flame provides none of those. Rather, flame is light energy, a product of the oxidation of the fuel. Fire converts chemical energy to heat energy and light energy. Light, and thus visible flame, is a product of combustion, not a reactant or catalyst.

To extinguish a fire. One must remove either fuel, heat, or oxygen. Removing the fuel tank from the vicinity of the fire reduced the available fuel to that which had already been spilled on the bike. Eventually, the fire would have used up all its fuel and gone out, even if nothing further was done. Packing rags on the fuel cut off the supply of oxygen, and the fire stopped burning.

Beating a fire with rags merely makes a breeze that provides MORE oxygen, increasing the intensity of a fire. Rags are a poor substitute for a real fire blanket, but they will work on a small fire. Here are instructions for using a fire blanket: http://www.ucl.ac.uk/efd/maintenance/fire/documents/UCLFire_TN_035.pdf Note that the blanket is supposed to cover the fire and be left there. Removing the blanket allows oxygen to reach the fuel, and if there is still sufficient heat, the fuel will reignite.

The only way to blow out a fire is to move air with sufficient force to separate the heat from the fuel. Easily done with a small enough fire, like a candle or match. Not so easily done with 100-150ml of gasoline. Besides, respiration does not lower the oxygen content of air by all that much, only by about 20% at the most, significantly less reduction when huffing and puffing trying to blow out a fire because there is a much larger volume of air in each breath and much less time the air is in the lungs where gas exchange can occur. Therefore more than 80% of the oxygen you inhale is deposited on the fire when you blow.

Think about practical applications: 1) When using flint and steel or friction to start a fire, once the first glowing ember is established, gently blowing provides additional intensity to incease the heat output enough to ignite the tinder. The increased intensity is the result of more oxygen available. 2) Rescue breathing increases the oxygen level in the patient's blood. Where does that oxygen come from if not from the rescuer's exhaled breath?

I think you're wrong on this one, Chuck. If you disagree, ask any firefighter. These are the basic parameters upon which firefighting tactics are founded.

No it did NOT. Why??? Because Ken said so, and that should be enough.

Exactly.

Come on, Bill and Elzi, can't you be more snide than that. I'm very disappointed that you hide under the tail of Chuck's lab coat (would have said "skirt", but Chuck doesn't wear skirts) and gloat.

 

[DFW_Warrior]

I'm just wondering with all the wisdom around that bike why someone was trying to repeatedly start it while fuel was pouring out of the carbs, then proclaimed everyone else to be wrong? It seems to me that any decent wrench would know that sparks from an arcing connection and fuel pouring out about 5" away would have known better. It wasn't even a slow leak, I could see it from all the way across a 4 car garage. That's why I disappeared from helping Hannah once all the "experts" appeared.

No hiding under someone's coat, period.

But hey, what do I know? Afterall, we didn't light up a ZRX so we must have been doing something wrong.

 

[KenH]

Actually, it did work with two of us blowing. The O2 content is less in exhaled air and you disconnect the flame from the fuel, stifling the process.

No it did NOT. Why??? Because Ken said so, and that should be enough.

Exactly.

I'm just wondering with all the wisdom around that bike why someone was trying to repeatedly start it while fuel was pouring out of the carbs, then proclaimed everyone else to be wrong? It seems to me that any decent wrench would know that sparks from an arcing connection and fuel pouring out about 5" away would have known better. It wasn't even a slow leak, I could see it from all the way across a 4 car garage. That's why I disappeared from helping Hannah once all the "experts" appeared.

No hiding under someone's coat, period.

But hey, what do I know? Afterall, we didn't light up a ZRX so we must have been doing something wrong.

Maybe you were hallucinating. No tank on the bike, not possible for fuel to be pouring out of the carbs unless someone loosened the drains. I don't think anyone had time to do that.

Just goes to show what fear of a little unknown can do to one's perceptions. Did you run fast when you were skeered? Sure wish I would have seen that if you did. Skeered people run really funny.

Now act your age and kwitchurbellyachin.

 

[Squidward]

edited for double post

 

[Squidward]

Maybe you were hallucinating. No tank on the bike, not possible for fuel to be pouring out of the carbs unless someone loosened the drains. I don't think anyone had time to do that.

Just goes to show what fear of a little unknown can do to one's perceptions. Did you run fast when you were skeered? Sure wish I would have seen that if you did. Skeered people run really funny.

How'd the gas tank catch fire if it wasn't on the bike pouring fuel through the carbs when you all started it then hung on the throttle?

BTW, show Chuck some respect....he more than deserves it.

Now act your age and kwitchurbellyachin.

Pot....kettle.

 

[AutoRotate]

Chuck,

I'm glad you got a lesson on the fire triangle. Maybe now you have earned your fire badge. Also, lab coats are cooler than apples on desks!

Looks like you guys had a great tech day. Sorry I missed it, but even though I wasn't there, thanks for helping the way you always do. Take care and be safe!

Clay

 

[Crew Chief]

I'll take all the responsibility for the fire. I knew the needles were not sealing consistently and had already recommended that the seats be replaced. I made the recommendation to try and crank it in order to determine if the starter and it's electrical circuit were up to snuff along with the ignition system before more money and time was spent on the carbs. If I could have run down to the corner for new parts, I would have made a different decision, but I made the one I did and I'll take the heat for it...no pun intended.


Mike

 

[Squidward]

I'll take all the responsibility for the fire. I knew the needles were not sealing consistently and had already recommended that the seats be replaced. I made the recommendation to try and crank it in order to determine if the starter and it's electrical circuit were up to snuff along with the ignition system before more money and time was spent on the carbs. If I could have run down to the corner for new parts, I would have made a different decision, but I made the one I did and I'll take the heat for it...no pun intended.


Mike

No worries, Mike. The fire isn't the real issue. It seems to be more along the lines of personality conflicts between various members. Again, thank you so very much for hosting this event at your beautiful place. Can't wait to do it again.

 

[donroger1]

Wayne, did I understand that you have Don's CarbTune? If you do and are done with it I would like to use it next (with Don's permission of course). Sounds like Bill garage will be full and fast paced. Last flurry before launch.

Works for me, but that puts you second in line after Squidward - with Don's permission, of course.

Actually, I promised the carbtune to Ed in April. It just never worked out.

You are all welcome to use it.

Marty wanted in line as well. (Voyagerrider).

I just need it back sometime to do my throttle bodies.

 

[Squidward]

Actually, I promised the carbtune to Ed in April. It just never worked out.

You are all welcome to use it.

Marty wanted in line as well. (Voyagerrider).

I just need it back sometime to do my throttle bodies.

I just sent you a PM before seeing this. I realized I was remiss in getting your blessing before setting it up with Wayne. Man, I suck.

 

[Gilk51]

Nice theory, didn't work, because the fire was still burning after I took the tank outside and returned to the garage. If the size of the flames decreased while you were blowing on it, it was because of the steady decrease in the amount of fuel available.

It was a very weak flame that danced all over place. Blowing on it diminished its size but still left a remnant that kept it going. I would not have continued to try and blow on it if it caused the fire to flare up.

Fire requires three things: fuel, oxygen, and heat. Flame provides none of those. Rather, flame is light energy, a product of the oxidation of the fuel. Fire converts chemical energy to heat energy and light energy. Light, and thus visible flame, is a product of combustion, not a reactant or catalyst.

No, the flame is where the heat is & is the combustion point - not a product of it. You remove the flame in this type of fire & it goes out.

To extinguish a fire. One must remove either fuel, heat, or oxygen. Removing the fuel tank from the vicinity of the fire reduced the available fuel to that which had already been spilled on the bike. Eventually, the fire would have used up all its fuel and gone out, even if nothing further was done. Packing rags on the fuel cut off the supply of oxygen, and the fire stopped burning.

I honestly don't remember what but it out but am pretty sure that Mike did it. I do remember wishing for a little more air volume since two of us blowing on it almost put it out.

Beating a fire with rags merely makes a breeze that provides MORE oxygen, increasing the intensity of a fire. Rags are a poor substitute for a real fire blanket, but they will work on a small fire. Here are instructions for using a fire blanket: http://www.ucl.ac.uk/efd/maintenance/fire/documents/UCLFire_TN_035.pdf Note that the blanket is supposed to cover the fire and be left there. Removing the blanket allows oxygen to reach the fuel, and if there is still sufficient heat, the fuel will reignite.

The fire actually used quite a bit of area, thus the rags were too small to suffocate it. They were very close.

The only way to blow out a fire is to move air with sufficient force to separate the heat from the fuel. Easily done with a small enough fire, like a candle or match. Not so easily done with 100-150ml of gasoline. Besides, respiration does not lower the oxygen content of air by all that much, only by about 20% at the most, significantly less reduction when huffing and puffing trying to blow out a fire because there is a much larger volume of air in each breath and much less time the air is in the lungs where gas exchange can occur. Therefore more than 80% of the oxygen you inhale is deposited on the fire when you blow.

I'm not sure how much gas was involved - I would guess that it was a thin film over a fairly large area. It certainly was not even of campfire size or intensity.

Think about practical applications: 1) When using flint and steel or friction to start a fire, once the first glowing ember is established, gently blowing provides additional intensity to incease the heat output enough to ignite the tinder. The increased intensity is the result of more oxygen available.

That is a completely different case - you have some relatively inert material that is a container for the heat - it burns very slowly and is also hard to put out. The original fuel (fast burning) is used to transfer all of that heat energy to the slower stuff. This was a "flash" fire - the only thing burning was the gasoline itself. There was not enough time to stockpile the heat energy.

2) Rescue breathing increases the oxygen level in the patient's blood. Where does that oxygen come from if not from the rescuer's exhaled breath?

Well, the patient is usually not breathing - any oxygen input will raise his oxygen level because it is going down already. Yes, there is oxygen content in exhaled breath but still less than the air that was inhaled plus it has some CO2 mixed in.

I think you're wrong on this one, Chuck. If you disagree, ask any firefighter. These are the basic parameters upon which firefighting tactics are founded.

The fire was not much more than a candle but with more area. It was not intense at all - a firefighter would have laughed at this one. Blowing on it did not fan the flame, so while waiting for a fire extinguisher, it was certainly worth a try.

 

[DFW_Warrior]

Maybe you were hallucinating. No tank on the bike, not possible for fuel to be pouring out of the carbs unless someone loosened the drains. I don't think anyone had time to do that.

Just goes to show what fear of a little unknown can do to one's perceptions. Did you run fast when you were skeered? Sure wish I would have seen that if you did. Skeered people run really funny.

Now act your age and kwitchurbellyachin.

What the heck are you smokin man???? You were the one saying that your jumbo tank now has soot on it. Remember that yet???? While YOUR tank was on that bike and YOU were trying to start it, fuel was pouring out of both carbs and I could see that from 35' away. Yeah... expert move... quick, hurry, backpeddle...... remember, it's always someone else's fault.... geez this gets tiring so quick.....

BTW, once it caught fire I stood looked around to see if there were any water bottles around, but there were not. After that I stood there and watched the "expert" in action.

 

[FWRex]

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